Regarding Malicious Third-Party Programs used in FINAL FANTASY XI (12/24/2009)

[Phraust]

I've had sex with a dozen or so women. I'm glad I still consider myself a virgin, otherwise this herpes outbreak might be real.

[Lovex]

I've had sex with a dozen or so women. I'm glad I still consider myself a virgin, otherwise this herpes outbreak might be real.

OMG Hi Phraust!

You're an amazing SAM btw.

(Not being sarcastic.)

[Phraust]

You picked the absolute worse post to quote just to say "hi"

lol...

[Shamaya]

No matter how hard his Kashas, no matter how prominent his herpes, nor how far reaching his seed, it will not help improve his mastery nor understanding of the English language, nor aid him in his most Epic arguments.

[Bugpop]

Of course you can comment whatever you like as a person. You just cannot stress that any litigation would go one way or another based off of your experience since you have none. Your familiarity with the law goes as far as your ability to interpret it. Unfortunately, since you haven't provided any public cases for me to reference similar outcomes, I can only take your advice for the face value of someone that doesn't really know what he is talking about.

Furthermore, you saw the quote i had posted and pulled the worst piece of information as to why they were to ban people as "No reason". Maybe i should have bolded to emphasize that it says in the agreement "ANY REASON".

Because of the "Any Reason" the following does not really matter. However, you went out of your way to state the following :

"They are specific enough to include "Cheat codes and/or devices." You can't confuse a cheat code with a program, and a device is a physical thing."

I'm sorry but device being a physical thing is your interpretation and play on semantics and wording. I'm assuming an intelligent judge and a jury of our peers would be able to make an assessment that device has various meanings. One of which is "a mechanism designed to serve a special purpose or perform a special function". So yes that would most likely include software.

@BugPop

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm attacking you directly. I am not intending it to be this way. I am just trying to stress that your statements of people not violating the terms of service using third party applications are unfounded. The statements about whether SE could rightfully retract their service legally is something I also have no experience with and it could possibly go either way.

The main reason I argue my point is because things you say about cheat codes or devices could give people a false sense of security. Based off of the arguments you have made so far, I would say that SE and their legal team have made sure that they are covered in the third party software aspect. Otherwise, wouldn't they have altered their terms of service which is allowed to be updated at any time?

I'll agree with you in principle. I don't want people getting banned. Just because SE may not have the right to ban a player doesn't mean they won't ban that player.

SE can be estopped from exercising their right to exercise the terms of the contract. I am familiar enough with contracts to know that courts usually read contracts as specific as they are written. I am cautioned about being overly specific when I am writing portions of contract documents. If they want to include cheat programs they need to clearly include that somewhere.

Lawyers will ask for everything they can. They will rely on you to tell them that they can't ask for it. This is typical of all the lawyers I know. They'll put everything they can in a contract and rely on you to tell them they can't ask for that. Don't count on someone else's attorney to look out for your best interests.

I didn't mean to really target your post, it was just a well written collection of the sentiments of the opposition. I don't think cheaters are evil, as I have said, I think they're idiots when they try to rationalize cheating, or in this thread specifically when they think it's bullshit they should get banned for breaking the rules. I read through most of your post but a lot of it was unrelated and anecdotal support for your opinion; which is fine, but irrelevant.

From what you're saying, I already get it, your friends got banned, your server sucks blah blah blah. But just because you CAN say "It isn't black and white" doesn't make it so. Your argument is basically "They're only cheaters when they cheat" which is a fallacy. And even THAT is irrelevant.

What IS relevant is this:

(Let me preface the following by saying I mean "You" in a general sense.)

We're playing a game. Our interaction in said game and game related forums is my only knowledge of you. You're a cheater in game and a cheat supporter outside of game. I.E. you are a morally corrupt person. Whether you intend to be a 'good person' or not is irrelevant, you're adversely affecting peoples' entertainment by cheating. What you are doing in retaliation to other cheaters is hurting legitimate players. I don't care how noble you THINK you are, you're not. You could cure cancer in your spare time, I don't give a fuck. All I see is your character warp to MonsterX and it's claimed.

According to your moral flexibilities it's perfectly fine to bot and out claim me because "You shouldn't have to waste 3-9 hours of your time." So instead you just shit on MY game. Which by you is ok because hey, you're only cheating when you bot.

And there ARE people saying "I use to bot, but I stopped" and you're saying "See? They stopped botting, they didn't bot all the time!" To which I call bullshit, if someone stops botting because they got everything they needed doesn't make em noble either. "LOL HAY GUYS I STOPPED BOTTZING LOLOLOL (after I got my D.RIng, V.Belt, Ridill, E.body, A.Body and Gaiters for my E.Girlfriend, Funded my 3 relics, and leveled my Goldsmithing to 100) BUT HAY LOLOLOLO I QUIT BOTTING SO I AM ALL GUD NOWZ!"

Your thinking is flawed, cheating IS Black & White. If you cheat you're a cheater. And if you cheat, you should be banned as to no longer adversely affect the gameplay of others.

I can judge people to the limits of my interactions with them. Just because you're a nice guy, and only occasionally piss in my beer make the fact you pissed in my beer any less important to me. You're a dick, you pissed in my fucking beer. And if it's the only interaction I have with you, what the fuck do you think I am going to think of you? And you're saying 'I shouldn't judge people' is not only cliché, it's naive and just flat out wrong.

Botting is cheating just in the same was as flying and using a calculator is cheating. They make life easier. Not everyone has access to a calculator. Not everyone can afford to fly. Not everyone is going to use a bot.

[pchan]

Botting is cheating just in the same was as flying and using a calculator is cheating. They make life easier. Not everyone has access to a calculator. Not everyone can afford to fly. Not everyone is going to use a bot.

No.

[Khajit]

And you guys seriously wonder why the fuck Se is concerned about this shit right before their new game comes out?
You guys have warped entire sections of the game(endgame related at least) to the point that there are people that cant/wont be able to access content because they don't want to CHEAT in a video-game. Do you seriously think that "forcing" people to risk their character just so that they can do something other than sit around for 3+ hours a day is good sportsmanship or something?
Anyone that looks at this game to get an idea of what to expect from 14 is going to see that in order to enjoy killing something in 14 they'll probably have to shell out 2000 bucks to cheat their way into "fairness" and most sane people would respond "fuck that shit."

[Shassira]

I didn't mean to really target your post, it was just a well written collection of the sentiments of the opposition. I don't think cheaters are evil, as I have said, I think they're idiots when they try to rationalize cheating, or in this thread specifically when they think it's bullshit they should get banned for breaking the rules. I read through most of your post but a lot of it was unrelated and anecdotal support for your opinion; which is fine, but irrelevant.

From what you're saying, I already get it, your friends got banned, your server sucks blah blah blah. But just because you CAN say "It isn't black and white" doesn't make it so. Your argument is basically "They're only cheaters when they cheat" which is a fallacy. And even THAT is irrelevant.

What IS relevant is this:

(Let me preface the following by saying I mean "You" in a general sense.)

We're playing a game. Our interaction in said game and game related forums is my only knowledge of you. You're a cheater in game and a cheat supporter outside of game. I.E. you are a morally corrupt person. Whether you intend to be a 'good person' or not is irrelevant, you're adversely affecting peoples' entertainment by cheating. What you are doing in retaliation to other cheaters is hurting legitimate players. I don't care how noble you THINK you are, you're not. You could cure cancer in your spare time, I don't give a fuck. All I see is your character warp to MonsterX and it's claimed.

According to your moral flexibilities it's perfectly fine to bot and out claim me because "You shouldn't have to waste 3-9 hours of your time." So instead you just shit on MY game. Which by you is ok because hey, you're only cheating when you bot.

And there ARE people saying "I use to bot, but I stopped" and you're saying "See? They stopped botting, they didn't bot all the time!" To which I call bullshit, if someone stops botting because they got everything they needed doesn't make em noble either. "LOL HAY GUYS I STOPPED BOTTZING LOLOLOL (after I got my D.RIng, V.Belt, Ridill, E.body, A.Body and Gaiters for my E.Girlfriend, Funded my 3 relics, and leveled my Goldsmithing to 100) BUT HAY LOLOLOLO I QUIT BOTTING SO I AM ALL GUD NOWZ!"

Your thinking is flawed, cheating IS Black & White. If you cheat you're a cheater. And if you cheat, you should be banned as to no longer adversely affect the gameplay of others.

I can judge people to the limits of my interactions with them. Just because you're a nice guy, and only occasionally piss in my beer make the fact you pissed in my beer any less important to me. You're a dick, you pissed in my fucking beer. And if it's the only interaction I have with you, what the fuck do you think I am going to think of you? And you're saying 'I shouldn't judge people' is not only cliché, it's naive and just flat out wrong.

Let me start by saying that I agree with both of your posts completely and ofcourse point out that you won't find much support for that line of though here, but I'm sure you realized this ages ago. I won't get into the reasons for that, I just wanted to focus on that last statement which I personaly think needs a bit of polishing:

I do think like you, there is no turning back, you are a cheater if you cheat. However, the punishment for cheating needs to be proportional to the damage created by such cheating. As players we cannot always be moraly right and as such oportunities to stop our wrong ways of action need to be given. It's basicly the same reason people aren't sent to the electric chair after stealing a lump of bread.

Let me just repeat one thing though, because I'm sure someone will jump on me and remind me how I've defended that doing something as mild as using wireframe to see through Nyzul is cheating. It is cheating and it makes you a cheater, simple as that. It's everyone's responsability to understand the extent of your actions and how wrong one is doing, but it's still cheating.

Oh, and I do think the punishment for duping and exploiting the hell out of salvage to fund your little items, crafts and LSs was correct. In fact, I think in some cases it was too mild.
The rest of my opinions are pretty much the same as Phraust's.

[Dooom]

Anyone that looks at this game to get an idea of what to expect from 14 is going to see that in order to enjoy killing something in 14 they'll probably have to shell out 2000 bucks to cheat their way into "fairness" and most sane people would respond "fuck that shit."

This, absolutely. You can argue all day and night about right and wrong and all that stuff, but as long as the perception of part of FFXI's endgame is "well, you gotta cheat if you wanna take part, or you're just wasting time" then 14 is gonna struggle to sell itself. As 14 gets closer, SE need to be seen as doing something to "tidy up" 11 so that people can go "oh, they had botting problems before but they've tried to clean it up, maybe we should give them a chance". I doubt it'll do anything to affect 11, but it's a PR move because when you're selling your new product, you can't afford to be seen as having no control over your old one.

[Cesaria]

That's the essence of this warning - it's SE trying to assert that they're in control over their game in order to look better for when 14 comes out - none of this is connected to 11 at all, it's pre-marketing for 14. But yes, they have a massive massive problem with 11 endgame when botting is regarded as an "essential" to enjoy sections of content - and it's not a good advert for their next product to be seen as having that reputation with their current game.

For the moment it appears to be a somewhat meaningless gesture, whether it's reinforced with bans or not remains to be seen but I still think any massive banning will only come as a "WE'RE IN CHARGE DON'T YOU FORGET IT" thing right toward the end of the lifespan of 11 (which realistically I think isn't going to do an Everquest and survive after the new game's released)... all to reassert the authority which they seem to have lost over their games in the name of the new product. They still need to keep sufficient people on the servers to keep their 11 cash cow running for the changeover, beta and pre-launch period, so my guess would be they'd hang fire for a few more months but I'd forsee another "big gesture" just before 14 comes out along the size of the salvage bannings to be honest.

[pchan]

It's clear that SE didn't want to alter Dragon's Aery mechanics for years so as to preserve an equilibrium in the game. A few years ago RMTs went into chobo digging and made bots that would basically allow them to get items all day and control all zone, since everyone has the same pool. What did they do ? Did they try to prevent people from using bots or try to shutdown the bots ? Nope. They altered the gameplay, preventing botting but also making chobo digging totally worthless while it was one of the best farming method. So my question is : why didn't they try to alter the way HnMs pop so as to prevent botters from botting ? I mean, it's their game, their code. Bots work because the pop time is predictable. They should have altered this long ago, yet they didn't touch it ...

[Destinye]

It's clear that SE didn't want to alter Dragon's Aery mechanics for years so as to preserve an equilibrium in the game. A few years ago RMTs went into chobo digging and made bots that would basically allow them to get items all day and control all zone, since everyone has the same pool. What did they do ? Did they try to prevent people from using bots or try to shutdown the bots ? Nope. They altered the gameplay, preventing botting but also making chobo digging totally worthless while it was one of the best farming method. So my question is : why didn't they try to alter the way HnMs pop so as to prevent botters from botting ? I mean, it's their game, their code. Bots work because the pop time is predictable. They should have altered this long ago, yet they didn't touch it ...

SE can make HNMs pop with the konami code and people would still find a way to bot it.

[pchan]

SE can make HNMs pop with the konami code and people would still find a way to bot it.

I'm not necessarily thinking about erasing boting which can't be done but just reducing it considerably. Some stuff i though of :

- level 75 and all rank 10 nation required to claim Fafnir
- claiming Fafnir will cost you 1500 AP or equivalent forms (CP IS etc)
- Fafnir is now instanced like ANNMs (no mpk, everyone has to be here etc)
- level 60 in one craft is required
- claiming fafnir consumes a key item that can only be gotten by defeating a dynamis boss, or equivalent endgame area (Nyzul, salvage, assaut..)

This would considerably reduce the botting possibilities while not really affecting non botters.

[Sev]

I'm not necessarily thinking about erasing boting which can't be done but just reducing it considerably. Some stuff i though of :

- level 75 and all rank 10 nation required to claim Fafnir
- claiming Fafnir will cost you 1500 AP or equivalent forms (CP IS etc)
- Fafnir is now instanced like ANNMs (no mpk, everyone has to be here etc)
- level 60 in one craft is required
- claiming fafnir consumes a key item that can only be gotten by defeating a dynamis boss, or equivalent endgame area (Nyzul, salvage, assaut..)

This would considerably reduce the botting possibilities while not really affecting non botters.

ANNM would reduce bots, only because there is nothing to bot aside fishing and crafting. Making people level a craft is retarded even by your standards.

So this Pchan post got me thinking let me know if you like my endgame idea.

Step One: Instance the the fight!
Step Two: Name the Instance; Tiamat's Lair
Step Three: Let us make it a once a day zone!
Step Four: Let us add some bosses like: Fafnir, Nidhogg, King Behemoth, Aspid, Cerb, Khim, and finally the big Tiamat.
Step Five: Well how many people? Some will argue 25! 25! I am going to say 18!
Step Six: Drop rates? Let us up them !
Step Seven: What happens if you wipe? You can just renter the zone don't worry.
Step Eight: Everyone moves to FFXIV: SE success.

Sound familiar.

[Correction]

So this Pchan post got me thinking let me know if you like my endgame idea.

Step One: Instance the the fight!
Step Two: Name the Instance; Einherjar or Nyzul
Step Three: Let us make it a once a week zone!
Step Four: Let us add some bosses like: Fafnir, Nidhogg, King Behemoth, Aspid, Cerb, Khim, and finally the big Odin.
Step Five: Well how many people? Some will argue 25! 25! I am going to say 18!
Step Six: Drop rates? Let us guarantee 4 on the last boss!
Step Seven: What happens if you wipe? You can just reraise without losing claim don't worry.
Step Eight: Everyone gets abjurations like they wanted without competing with bots

Sound familiar.

look out FFXI is dying.

[Kipling]

lol, level 60 in one craft. I kind of thought your post was decent until I read that. I level'd cloth once, now that crafting is a shit hole I'm not doing that again.

[Khajit]

ANNM would reduce bots, only because there is nothing to bot aside fishing and crafting. Making people level a craft is retarded even by your standards.

So this Pchan post got me thinking let me know if you like my endgame idea.

Step One: Instance the the fight!
Step Two: Name the Instance; Tiamat's Lair
Step Three: Let us make it a once a day zone!
Step Four: Let us add some bosses like: Fafnir, Nidhogg, King Behemoth, Aspid, Cerb, Khim, and finally the big Tiamat.
Step Five: Well how many people? Some will argue 25! 25! I am going to say 18!
Step Six: Drop rates? Let us up them !
Step Seven: What happens if you wipe? You can just renter the zone don't worry.
Step Eight: Everyone moves to FFXIV: SE success.

Sound familiar.

Does your event drop Dring and BB items?
I personally think the CP/IN/IS cost should have been more severe to force people to spend around a few days working towards their next shot.

[Bugpop]

No.

Phraust makes the argument that using third party programs to enhance FFXI is cheating and immoral. I won't disagree that certain elements of the third party programs may amount to cheating but using them is not cheating.

In considering how using any third party program is always cheating I am unable to conclude that it is. What would be the argument? Third party programs enable players to have access to information and abilities outside of the program. If it was included in the game the third party program wouldn't be necessary.

Adding adblock and noscript to firefox doesn't amount to cheating. That might sound rediculous but it's a similar principle -- functionality is being added to firefox.

Why else would using third party programs for FFXI be cheating? Is it because it gives players who use them an advantage over others? I will acknowledge there is a degree of unfairness that exists with certain functions of third party programs which certainly could amount to cheating. Using a bot for the purpose of outclaiming another or to give increased movement speed to gain advantage over another is clearly cheating. This is an unfair advantage that is done at the expense of others. These are situation specific.

One may argue that it is cheating onself to use third party programs in-game because it makes the game easier by removing the challenge. I must be cheating myself every day because I drive to work instead of walk. Using tools to work with time-intensive tasks is perfectly acceptable and does not amount to cheating.

[NynJa]

Adding adblock and noscript to firefox doesn't amount to cheating. That might sound rediculous but it's a similar principle -- functionality is being added to firefox.

Except firefox is designed to have said plugins interact with it, SE didnt want other things interacting/enhancing the game, as such your argument is invalid.

One may argue that it is cheating onself to use third party programs in-game because it makes the game easier by removing the challenge. I must be cheating myself every day because I drive to work instead of walk. Using tools to work with time-intensive tasks is perfectly acceptable and does not amount to cheating.

You also pay to drive your car: gas, insurance, registration, license.


I've noticed a couple throw around "well if it doesnt affect others, I dont see the big deal". Anything winds up affecting others. Two people are hunting a coffer for their AF, one has apradar, and the other doesnt. The person with apradar, despite seemingly "not hurting others" doesnt have to constantly tab around to locate the coffer, they can filter it on the map, as well as see it from 50' away. The person without apradar has to tab around, go around corners, etc etc.

[pchan]

Adding adblock and noscript to firefox doesn't amount to cheating. That might sound rediculous but it's a similar principle -- functionality is being added to firefox.

No, there is a major with firefox. Firefox is distributed under gpl/mpl/lgpl licences which are variations of free/open source licences which means you can copy distribute and modify so long as you keep the licence in the modfied product, meaning add-on to firefox are perfectly fine, unlike the use of 3rd party in FFXI.