Regarding Malicious Third-Party Programs used in FINAL FANTASY XI (12/24/2009)

[evilpaul]

Destinye I think the point of the grey area you're missing here is that it was in the game for so long, and nothing was ever said about it by SE, that there was no way of knowing whether it was 'working as intended' or not. In fact, if ever reported I bet a lot of stupid-ass GMs probably TOLD people that it was 'working as intended' because that's their cardboard answer to everything that isn't passed on from the higher-ups as being a bug. No one had any way to know that they might get punished for doing it, except a vague feeling of "this might be wrong, but SE hasn't slapped us on the wrist for it so..."

SE is as much at fault as the players for this incident and SE definitely didn't act with the grey area in mind, they turned it black and white just like you do and really good players got banned for not having any guidance from the glitchy company doing the banning.

If you were doing the duping trick and thought it was "working as intended" you probably also think blowjobs don't count as cheating.

And if you've been reading BG for more than two or three days you're aware GMs are fucktards.

[Silenka]

All I'm saying is, and this could apply to things besides the duping trick, if it's in the game and has been reported for more than a year who's to say it's not intentionally placed? As far as duping goes, SE certainly didn't say anything, although they had (from our understand) A YEAR'S WORTH OF OPPORTUNITIES to say it.

The game company should try to keep its customers from being stupid, rather than partaking in sheer stupidity itself. Unfortunately, SE opted to be as fucktarded as its customers were, of course, bound to be (customers almost never act intelligently )

Then again, these are just my thoughts on it, everyone views it differently obviously, which is how discussions about salvage bans go on and on for pages.

[Narol]

customers almost never act intelligently

A problem of which you are part, if you seriously believe "who's to say it's not intentional?" as a defence. As I said earlier, no excuse not to exercise common sense.

[Silenka]

Nah, I for the most part try to act intelligently, which is why I end up despising people on the whole. Generally people do not use common sense whatsoever, nor do they exercise their brains enough to decide for themselves whether or not something is this way or that way - most people have to be spoon-fed information directly in the manner that befits the situation, rather than drawing their own conclusions about things. It does take a little more work to process raw information into something useful in regards to the situation, and people are lazy as hell, so they don't try, they just start doing stuff without thinking about it or the repercussions of what they're doing. I work with the public almost daily, and this is a sad truth I have come to accept. Argue it if you want, it doesn't change how my customers act on a daily basis. And I'm willing to bet my customers and SE's customers aren't that different when it comes right down to it.

[Wrish]

All I'm saying is, and this could apply to things besides the duping trick, if it's in the game and has been reported for more than a year who's to say it's not intentionally placed? As far as duping goes, SE certainly didn't say anything, although they had (from our understand) A YEAR'S WORTH OF OPPORTUNITIES to say it.

Nothing supplants good common sense.

SE doesn't fix a bug the moment it knows about it; it fixes the bug when the programmers have analyzed the problem, re-coded the game, and tested it. Apparently, the salvage dupe required much work just to detect, after which they had to run through a year's worth of backlogs. Some people even claimed it was undetectable. The logs were a mess.

In the case of "secret" bugs granting serious advantages, I don't think SE ever publicizes them before the fix because of the added complication of people trying to cover their tracks.

[Silenka]

They actually often do tip the users off to a bug. All they had to say was "An issue was found with such and such zone or such and such instance, anyone caught doing this will be banned no questions asked." They do this every now and then with other bugs. Did they do that with the extremely severe salvage dupe bug? Course not. Coulda shoulda didn't. As you stated they combed the logs far back anyway looking for people who did it in order to ban them. They would have had far fewer people to ban if they had warned about the bug.

[Pamelita]

lawl @ calling the salvage bans a holocaust.

Seriously, nobody has literally died, and there are other ways to enjoy your friends' company over the internet.

[thetruepandagod]

The needless sense of entitlement, the constant talk of the good old days and how doing things the hard way was the best way. The constant crying regardless of the outcome? I guess it really was a holocaust cuz it seems like BG is full of jews.

[Celebrindor]

Hey we all lost friends in the Salvage bans, myself included. But its been almost a year. Time to move on in one way, shape or form.

We probably can all agree that waiting for that long was shady on SE's part, and we can all question their motivations (I for one believe it has a small part to do with moving the most successful players off to FFXIV, as they had accomplished more in the game and would start to get "bored"), but the fact is that it was done, people were banned from the game or left on their own accord.

This new situation certainly raises new questions and reminds of us of a year ago. And maybe it will be that bad. Could be worse. Or this time could be a warning to the playerbase now that the app is removed. But honestly, what good does rehashing a year ago do except renew the old debate on who was wrong?

[Amastacia]

I'm sorry, but first of all, Wafik had his shit coming when he kept going out of his way to hide threads taking reference to the dupe. He knew full well that SE does read these boards, and wanted to keep the dupe his pretty little secret. I don't believe the stories that SE knew about the glitch, because lets face it, less problematic things have been rectified immediately. To try to convince me that SE let something that grave slide for over a year without doing anything? No, I dont buy it.

Secondly, I remember this quote very very well from that fateful day, not when the bans were handed out, but when the dupe trick was patched:
"oh well, atleast I personally made well over 70M before it was fixed", and ironically they were from Asura as well. Really? Using an exploit to make over 70m YOURSELF isnt worthy of a swift kick out of the game? I think it deserves it.

I'm sorry you play on Asura, the server that bred all the RMT, that housed morons that TAUGHT RMT how to properly do things, but most servers werent hit. The players that were hit were the pompous losers like Wop and Wafik who thought their shit dont stank. Look at me, my server houses some of the more notorious players: Sirlancelot, Dioma/Xerxes (yes they're the same person), yours truly...our server didn't change one bit.

Mileage varies, your server was pretty shitty to begin with, no offence.

Ye olde post, I'll admit, but a couple things worth addressing here.

1) Straight up asked Wafik why he deleted those threads before LM-17 day. I already knew about the exploit, and he knew I knew, so he had no reason to lie. The exact reason he gave me is that posting exploits like that is/was against the rules and he was doing his job as a moderator to remove threads that were detailing how to exploit the duping flaw.

Of course, since I was in SML, I must obviously be a nutswinger and totally full of shit. Wafik was an evil bastard who just wanted to dupe without anyone else knowing how he got so much gear (protip: 99% sure only 1 piece of gear he got was duped, out of the 2+ full sets he completed).

2) The folks who said that 70 mil bit were duping the unholy hell out of Sandworm. None of them who weren't also duping Salvage were so much as temp banned. Nice to see that SE permabanned several people who weren't even run or party leaders in less than a handful of Salvage runs where the dupe trick was used, and didn't punish people who had a much more adverse affect on the server in any way.

My anger over LM-17 day is twofold. Primarily that the punishment was so bizarre and inconsistent. Secondarily that the best LS I've ever been a part of in FFXI collapsed as a result. Yes, people were cheating, they accepted their punishments and moved on. Handled it pretty maturely, actually. I understand why they did what they did, I'm just angry as hell at SE for being so shady about the whole thing.

And yes, they did know. They knew for months, and they did nothing. I'd be betraying a confidence to say how I know that, so feel free to disregard me as full of shit or talking out my ass if you like. You can believe what you want, as is your prerogative.

I won't deny that Asura has had its shittiness all along, but the server absolutely went down the crapper after LM-17 day. Regardless of your opinions of some of the key players on the server, there were a number of solid endgame shells that collapsed, and nothing remotely like them have grown up in their wake. None of us liked Napolean (the guy who taught the RMTs) either, so you can't really hold him against us. He had to be somewhere, he happened to be on Asura.

[Destinye]

That's just it..SE wasn't shady about it at all. As usual since people just brush off SE cuz "It's SE after all.." they already pretty much gave a warning during the fan festival when they were asked about Salvage in general that they're going to be watching it/investigating it to see what to do in terms of drop rate, which means they're going to, get this...watch data which duping, yes, will show up in said data.

Which you can pretty much take as them telling you they're keeping an eye on it. If they notice players shitting out gear every run what is there to adjust? Why change any drop rate even if its 1% increase if every run you have players pulling out a fair bit of pieces per run yet been complaining that "drop rate is too low"? What happened shortly after the bans? They made changes to Salvage in terms of popping/drop rates whether good or not, that's up to the players to decide. You also have to remember they're the ones who designed the event which means they already know how many completed salvage armors should happen in x frame of time. Every developer does this people are just more critical over SE for whatever reason.

Seriously people shot themselves in the foot. Innocent people get banned? Sure why not, word of the community is 'everyone bots so no one really cares for it' which means there were likely other infractions on the account. Whether true or not innocence is a state of mind after all. There could have been some innocent people hit but how innocent were they? How do people know personally they're innocent especially if they're not sitting beside them? Even then wouldn't people still try to claim innocence when caught? No one wants to be punished when they're caught pulling shit, human nature etc.

So if SE acted immediately you'd still have the usual suspects calling SE morons for banning/getting butthurt and etc because all that would have happened was the Jan bans being done sooner and time of action doesn't change the fact people would still raise hell about it.

Is the exploit still active? Some say it is, but why would someone continue to use an exploit and still proclaim SE are the ones in the wrong? I don't sympathize with people who cheat but at the same time I don't care for cheaters, what I don't get is why people think they've been wronged when they get the proper punishment nor am I on a 'moral high horse', I just don't see how it's SE's fault when it's the players who were in the wrong...people can try to justify it all they want but it doesn't change the fact that players DID cheat. Duping is one of the the worst things you can do in an MMORPG because you can seriously fuck up the flow of many things, even things the developers had in mind. Those people didn't have to cheat and they shouldn't have. Every time you cheat you acknowledge there's potential of consequences, just because SE is slow or "doesn't do anything" shouldn't be the deciding factor on "hey I can cheat all I want."

Seriously when you get down to it..it's just a video game, yes MMORPGs are indeed video games so just enjoy yourselves >.>. Yeah lots of people played for 3-7 years lots grew up with it and MMOs can be an addiction, but when you get down it its all interactive lines of code and pixels, which defines video games. If you wanna cheat/dupe go for it but when people get banned for it, realize it's the players who wronged themselves, not SE. SE isn't the best developer in the world but the community aren't saints themselves. If they told players there's an open bug that allowed them to make 8 million gil every time they talked to an NPC (heh vague dejavu) you would have just as many people abusing it as you would if they didn't make it common knowledge mostly because the ones who wouldn't do it are those who wouldn't want to get caught and banned obviously, the only issue would be them determining if you accidentally did it or not, but iirc the salvage duping wasn't an 'accidental' type of thing like the Tavnazian Panties because the Panties most wouldn't have bought due to the insane price, but when you bought it and noticed you can sell it for a profit BACK to the NPC and kept doing it? Yeah....

Unlike things like that and Salvage duping, you had people going around pretty arrogantly that they can do it all they want and not get caught, that's why it wouldn't have made a difference if "SE officially acknowledged it" because you'd have the same group of people thinking they can get away with it. Some did, most didn't.

[Bugpop]

That's just it..SE wasn't shady about it at all. As usual since people just brush off SE cuz "It's SE after all.." they already pretty much gave a warning during the fan festival when they were asked about Salvage in general that they're going to be watching it/investigating it to see what to do in terms of drop rate, which means they're going to, get this...watch data which duping, yes, will show up in said data.

...

Unlike things like that and Salvage duping, you had people going around pretty arrogantly that they can do it all they want and not get caught, that's why it wouldn't have made a difference if "SE officially acknowledged it" because you'd have the same group of people thinking they can get away with it. Some did, most didn't.

SE's delay in fixing the exploit caused more time to be available for people to become "offenders". Less people would have faced disciplinary action if the exploit had been promptly fixed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity)

Laches (pronounced /ˈlætʃɨz/) (f. French, lachesse, laches) [1] is an equitable defense, or doctrine. The person invoking laches is asserting that an opposing party has "slept on its rights," and that, as a result of this delay, that other party is no longer entitled to its original claim. Put another way, failure to assert one’s rights in a timely manner can result in a claim's being barred by laches. Laches is a form of estoppel for delay.
...
A defense lawyer raising the defense of laches against a motion for injunctive relief (a form of equitable relief) might argue that the plaintiff comes "waltzing in at the eleventh hour" when it is now too late to grant the relief sought, at least not without causing great harm that the plaintiff could have avoided.

[NynJa]

So, presuming SE was aware of this glitch (and no "my friends friends boyfriends girlfriends mothers cousin told me so" story usually lmeans its a FOS statement), perhaps they were figuring out how to fix it. Presuming it took 5 months due to their spaghetti code, what would you want them to do? Take down Salvage/Nyzul/Sandworm for 5 months? Imagine THAT shitstorm.

SE never admits bugs in the system, until they're fixed, because people will abuse them. As annoying as it is at times due to random maintenance, then the vague description of what was wrong, they're pretty consistent.

[Hanyoko]

So, presuming SE was aware of this glitch (and no "my friends friends boyfriends girlfriends mothers cousin told me so" story usually lmeans its a FOS statement), perhaps they were figuring out how to fix it. Presuming it took 5 months due to their spaghetti code, what would you want them to do? Take down Salvage/Nyzul/Sandworm for 5 months? Imagine THAT shitstorm.

SE never admits bugs in the system, until they're fixed, because people will abuse them. As annoying as it is at times due to random maintenance, then the vague description of what was wrong, they're pretty consistent.

Do an update that places a more robust log monitor on the potentially effected code areas
Announce an investigation in a potential exploit involving X; restate TOS verbage
Time passes
Do fix, and punish those that abused it HARSHLY after the announcement; and a case by case on those prior to said announcement.

This goes back to the customer relations. If there is a "known issue" let the users know; look at how many companies these days have full disclosure of what the developers are fixing. I have lost count where it has saved me headache for troubleshooting game X by finding a developer log indicating the exact issue i am experiencing and see a note that it is fixed by workaround Y or will be in patch Z or etc.

That is why so many people felt safe. They did the proper thing (or multiple people have claimed to) by submitting it to the proper channel then have MONTHS pass without a mention of a fix.

I'll fall back to the "tell filter" it took them 6 months to address an issue that affected every paying customer; and even then their method does not address the root of the problem. I know I submitted a design document for multiple solutions nearly daily for a few weeks. After a month I gave up and started to use windower so I could have chatmon block them.

[Narol]

Do an update that places a more robust log monitor on the potentially effected code areas
Announce an investigation in a potential exploit involving X; restate TOS verbage
Time passes
Do fix, and punish those that abused it HARSHLY after the announcement; and a case by case on those prior to said announcement.

Guess what? You'd still get a sizable number of people bitching that they "didn't know it was an exploit" and that they "thought it was just a feature" and blah blah blah. As we've long since established, players are retarded and will come up with implausible, stupid-sounding excuses while flailing around attempting to justify their actions. People would still say "they're never going to catch me" or "they were so vague so I'm sure they didn't mean Salvage duping" or "everyone does it, so it'd be financial suicide to ban everyone" and we'd still get the same outcome in the end.

[Kaces]

i didn't know i couldn't do that

[Sev]

i didn't know i couldn't do that

Hi <3 Have a couple more trials for us bro.

Seriously all the threads are good shit make people come out of the wood works

[Wrish]

Do an update that places a more robust log monitor on the potentially effected code areas
Announce an investigation in a potential exploit involving X; restate TOS verbage
Time passes
Do fix, and punish those that abused it HARSHLY after the announcement; and a case by case on those prior to said announcement.

You're underestimating the difficulty of punishing for an exploit once (1) 20x people know about it and (2) people learn SE knows of it. Some players get creative. They employ laundering tactics, where SE flags an account that was rushed to 75 and whose valuables have mysteriously gone through a network of innocent players and trial mules. How do you think the gilsellers continue to have all that stock?

Notice they punished the harder-to-detect laundering more severely than the easy-to-detect rare/ex duping? Had they been soft they'd have lost the deterrent factor owing to incomplete detection of the former.

This goes back to the customer relations. If there is a "known issue" let the users know

That's different, and SE does that already. They'll let you know if an NPC crashes xbox users while a fix is under way - when there's nothing to exploit for gain.

That is why so many people felt safe. They did the proper thing (or multiple people have claimed to) by submitting it to the proper channel then have MONTHS pass without a mention of a fix.

If only they'd use their heads to understand all the silence... I know it's bad to remark in hindsight, but having been in on a major exploit for another game, had SE said anything, the effect would have been to promote laundering faster than deterrence because (1) SE has the bigger interest in the game and (2) we'd light up at the visage of incompetence. So long as they said nothing, we remained mostly under control. Once word broke (from a third party), they rushed out a fix and banned who they could (they would have preferred to wait).

[Hanyoko]

Laundering would be noticed by the "more robust logging". If they latch onto the item creation for those zones and heavily monitor the creation->player traffic.

Spaghetti code aside, it can be done with the right understanding of the code in question. However there is a strong possibility that those working on the 'fix' were not those best suited for the task as those persons were working on 14.

Heck some simple procedural actions would have made SE's life easier.
We have a test server right? Ok, grab some of the people that submitted and have them replicate the error for you multiple times on it. The test server could have verbose debugging on at the time too.

Isolation of the variables to narrow your magnifying glass to just the related code.

As far as I know, they never utilize the test server for these kinds of things.


My argument is SE's methods to solving the issues, namely the LONG delay in addressing them.

[AoshiZ]

SE's delay in fixing the exploit caused more time to be available for people to become "offenders". Less people would have faced disciplinary action if the exploit had been promptly fixed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity)

I believe you are using the laches term incorrectly. "Under the United States Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, laches is an affirmative defense, which means that the burden of asserting laches is on the party responding to the claim to which it applies."

In otherwords, I believe this means that Players wanting to claim unwarranted banning and refusal of service to last years salvage dupes could have a laches invoked because they decided to make a claim a year later. In which case SE could dispute the claim with a defense of laches because too much time has passed.

If SE were bringing the individual to court with a claim that would be the other way around. However SE has not brought the individual to court. SE has terminated the individual's account within its rights to do so from the ANY REASON clause.