Regarding Malicious Third-Party Programs used in FINAL FANTASY XI (12/24/2009)

[Mafai]

Seems a few LM-11's have been given out on Quetz already, any other servers noticing any?

quetz is far from the first place you should look for people getting banned... they do enough to get LM'd themselves without programs.

[Aced]

That being said, we're not getting banned, Maury deleted the list and it was not turned over as evidence. Seems some of you have problems reading.

Then how do you explain LM-11 in Dragon's Aery on Quetzalcoatl about an hour ago? Yes, it's Temp, but it's a start.

[stewie]

Seems a few LM-11's have been given out on Quetz already, any other servers noticing any?

Proof?

Edit: nvm it's quetz.

[BerenTebogo]

quetz is far from the first place you should look for people getting banned... they do enough to get LM'd themselves without programs.

This.

[Mafai]

Any word on Arenz?
There was a link on lmxvii.net but Mafai apparently took it down.

I'm still going. Just took it down for safety precautions. Thanks for worrying.

The word has spread enough, don't need that there anymore.

[Yabby]

That being said, we're not getting banned, Maury deleted the list and it was not turned over as evidence. Seems some of you have problems reading.

Not saying they have the list because it is a long shot, but if maury redirected his website to go to SE's what makes you think he won't do other things to get out of trouble? Do you really think he would keep the list from SE if they were willing to go easier on him, and his bank account if he gave it up?

[Aced]

Oh trust me I know, it was my home server for 4 years. Was told over MSN, guess they should come post here themselves for proof.

[BerenTebogo]

Not saying they have the list because it is a long shot, but if maury redirected his website to go to SE's what makes you think he won't do other things to get out of trouble? Do you really think he would keep the list from SE if they were willing to go easier on him, and his bank account if he gave it up?

Mafai can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he's still in close contact with Maury on a personal and friendly level. There is the tiniest of tiny, minuscule, infinitesimal chances that Maury turned over a list and didn't warn his own friends.

[Aced]

Well when I was in Absolution with Maury he told us all that he had to give the list up or he'd be put in jail. That was about 3 months ago. I personally haven't heard from him since, due to me being on Pandemonium now.

[Yabby]

Mafai can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he's still in close contact with Maury on a personal and friendly level. There is the tiniest of tiny, minuscule, infinitesimal chances that Maury turned over a list and didn't warn his own friends.

You my friend must have never been in that nice little room where they give you a deal, take it and have your life back, don't and you won't see your family for years and lose all the money you gain fucking over the ones you love. Sorry but i've seen many people crack and fuck over friends that are 20+ years to save their own asses or those of family members.


I'm not saying it will happen just saying if it came down to it, and someone's back is against the wall... they will roll over on any and everyone.

Edit: Also when it comes to warning friends, most deals come with a nice and friendly gag order.

[BerenTebogo]

Also, I'm no lawyer but Jack McCoy is, and he speaks through me. I believe federal statutes prevent the forced disclosure of material (exculpatory evidence) unless that evidence will be used as direct evidence in any civil or criminal legislation that may arise out of any plea taken or verdict passed down from the original legal violation.

What does that all mean for us? SE has no standing to hold us, users, criminally or civilly liable for any infractions that may have occurred in, or as a result of our enrollment in a MMORPG community. There are no existing federal or even civil precedents that would uphold any such ruling. As such, any agreement or clause that SE may have wanted to tie on to an agreement made with Maury would not be upheld legally, especially on appeal.

It's like making a deal with a burglar on the basis that he turn over to you his recipe for italian roast coffee. It's not going to happen.

/JackMcCoy.

Edit: Lol at yabby. What did he do? Kill a nice, rich white family in Texas? I don't think you get that whether they told him that he was going to jail or not he wouldn't be.

Jesus christ someone has been watching too much "The Closer"

[Mafai]

Also, I'm no lawyer but Jack McCoy is, and he speaks through me. I believe federal statutes prevent the forced disclosure of material (exculpatory evidence) unless that evidence will be used as direct evidence in any civil or criminal legislation that may arise out of any plea taken or verdict passed down from the original legal violation.

What does that all mean for us? SE has no standing to hold us, users, criminally or civilly liable for any infractions that may have occurred in, or as a result of our enrollment in a MMORPG community. There are no existing federal or even civil precedents that would uphold any such ruling. As such, any agreement or clause that SE may have wanted to tie on to an agreement made with Maury would not be upheld legally, especially on appeal.

It's like making a deal with a burglar on the basis that he turn over to you his recipe for italian roast coffee. It's not going to happen.

/JackMcCoy.

Edit: Lol at yabby. What did he do? Kill a nice, rich white family in Texas? I don't think you get that whether they told him that he was going to jail or not he wouldn't be.

Jesus christ someone has been watching too much "The Closer"

Yea but SE also has their ToS, which says they can do whatever they want, whenever they want.

[Aurania]

Also, I'm no lawyer but Jack McCoy is, and he speaks through me. I believe federal statutes prevent the forced disclosure of material (exculpatory evidence) unless that evidence will be used as direct evidence in any civil or criminal legislation that may arise out of any plea taken or verdict passed down from the original legal violation.

What does that all mean for us? SE has no standing to hold us, users, criminally or civilly liable for any infractions that may have occurred in, or as a result of our enrollment in a MMORPG community. There are no existing federal or even civil precedents that would uphold any such ruling. As such, any agreement or clause that SE may have wanted to tie on to an agreement made with Maury would not be upheld legally, especially on appeal.

It's like making a deal with a burglar on the basis that he turn over to you his recipe for italian roast coffee. It's not going to happen.

/JackMcCoy.

I think what you aren't getting here is this: SE is going after App creator likely for civil damages. It seems they have not yet sued him, but have definitely threatened to do so, else he would not be in this predicament and would not have taken down his apps. Given his conduct, it's pretty apparent they have strong evidence that he did exactly what they will claim he did when they do file a civil complaint.

Here's the thing about Federal discovery - it's extremely liberal with the information you can obtain through a simple subpoena. No, you don't have to go in front of a Judge to obtain a subpoena. That makes any lists he has discoverable information, especially in some type of copyright (or other) suit where they seek to establish how he has damaged them. That list is relevant and discoverable.

Basically, they've got the guy by the balls right now. He stands to lose EVERYTHING he earned from app/nasa sales and then some. He will be paying a judgment for the rest of his life.

Now, given all that he stands to lose, do you honestly and truly believe that he will NOT roll over on strangers seeking to protect their accounts, rather than save his own ass, his own family, and his earnings?

[Eanae]

The suit with Maury is already over. He just did what they asked and got off pretty free.

[Yabby]

SE most likely doesn't care about the money he made off his app, but he did us FFXI and images off the game to make his app. That alone means they can take more money than he has and fuck over his life. I'm not saying, nor did any say anything about going after the users of the problem legally, just to ban accounts. Why wouldn't he give up that info if it keeps his life from being fucked over.

I know this is being said way too much, but if they take out everyone that has used app thats most of the endgame that the salvage bans missed. Those people have friends that might quit because of it. But really what will happen? Start over now with 14 about to come out? no they will wait, and their friends will follow slowing killing this game and forcing people to move to the new game.

[Aurania]

Yea but SE also has their ToS, which says they can do whatever they want, whenever they want.

This. While there might be an ounce of truth to the notion that they can't sue app USERS, they sure as shit can ban them when they have confirmation that people used the program. Said confirmation is extremely easy to obtain pursuant to discovery rules.

[BerenTebogo]

I think what you aren't getting here is this: SE is going after App creator likely for civil damages. It seems they have not yet sued him, but have definitely threatened to do so, else he would not be in this predicament and would not have taken down his apps. Given his conduct, it's pretty apparent they have strong evidence that he did exactly what they will claim he did when they do file a civil complaint.

Here's the thing about Federal discovery - it's extremely liberal with the information you can obtain through a simple subpoena. No, you don't have to go in front of a Judge to obtain a subpoena. That makes any lists he has discoverable information, especially in some type of copyright (or other) suit where they seek to establish how he has damaged them. That list is relevant and discoverable.

Basically, they've got the guy by the balls right now. He stands to lose EVERYTHING he earned from app/nasa sales and then some. He will be paying a judgment for the rest of his life.

Now, given all that he stands to lose, do you honestly and truly believe that he will NOT roll over on strangers seeking to protect their accounts, rather than save his own ass, his own family, and his earnings?

This I understand. It's the idiots saying he'd go to jail if he doesn't comply that I'm loling at. Obviously he faces civil lawsuits.

[Yabby]

I was using that as an example for how people will roll over. Losing all your money for you and family is the same thing, which was the point i was trying to get across. They do have the means to take everything he has from him, and he will give anything information they want to keep that from happening.

Given the time frame in which app was taken down, and SE posting this means they have taken time to look into things. Like a list of people that used the 3rd party program. I still think its a long shot that they will go mass banning again, but given the time app was shut down, and now.... wtf were they doing waiting to post this? Heads up on the banning to come? Maybe.

[BerenTebogo]

I was using that as an example for how people will roll over. Losing all your money for you and family is the same thing, which was the point i was trying to get across. They do have the means to take everything he has from him, and he will give anything information they want to keep that from happening.

Given the time frame in which app was taken down, and SE posting this means they have taken time to look into things. Like a list of people that used the 3rd party program. I still think its a long shot that they will go mass banning again, but given the time app was shut down, and now.... wtf were they doing waiting to post this? Heads up on the banning to come? Maybe.

Well, the fact that a gag order (and again, correct me if federal law is more lenient here) is only if it is to prevent the furtherance of a crime, an ongoing criminal enterprise, or if it prevents information that can be illegally used as evidence in civil suits from being released.

None of those requirements would be met whatsoever here - and even assuming some judge had a liberal interpretation of the fundamentals, he would be - at most - barred from issuing public press releases or conducting interviews on the subject.

There is virtually NOTHING that I know of legally that would prevent Maury from getting on his PC and IMing at least 1 person who plays FFXI (I believe he also had RL friends who played?) and saying, "I was forced to turn over my list and you're probably going to get banned, sorry." What's worse is that the exact opposite has pretty much already happened with Maury, apparently, telling a few people that they have nothing at all to worry about.

There's a lot of bandwagonning and fear-mongering going on here, but that's really all that I think is going to come out of this.

This of course coming from a guy who stands to be banned, so take that as you will. MAYBE I'M JUST IN DENIAL LOLZ

[Aurania]

Well, the fact that a gag order (and again, correct me if federal law is more lenient here) is only if it is to prevent the furtherance of a crime, an ongoing criminal enterprise, or if it prevents information that can be illegally used as evidence in civil suits from being released.

None of those requirements would be met whatsoever here - and even assuming some judge had a liberal interpretation of the fundamentals, he would be - at most - barred from issuing public press releases or conducting interviews on the subject.

There is virtually NOTHING that I know of legally that would prevent Maury from getting on his PC and IMing at least 1 person who plays FFXI (I believe he also had RL friends who played?) and saying, "I was forced to turn over my list and you're probably going to get banned, sorry." What's worse is that the exact opposite has pretty much already happened with Maury, apparently, telling a few people that they have nothing at all to worry about.

There's a lot of bandwagonning and fear-mongering going on here, but that's really all that I think is going to come out of this.

This of course coming from a guy who stands to be banned, so take that as you will. MAYBE I'M JUST IN DENIAL LOLZ

Ehhhh, it totally depends on the case. Many civil cases exchange discovery under protection orders, and many settlements are made under protective orders as well. The vast majority of cases remain public record in their entirety, but depending on the circumstances (maybe SE makes arguments about proprietary information or some bullshit), a Judge can grant a protective order (especially if the parties stipulate to it - 90% of the time, a Judge will rubber stamp a stip protective order). "Gag order" might not be legalese, but the intent is essentially the same - to prevent the general public from learning of the contents of a certain document.

Are they enforceable? To a degree, yes. Usually the orders dictate what penalties will arise if a violation occurs. Most times, you're looking at fines, maybe civil contempt. Basically, IF they entered into some settlement, they might have agreed to keep the terms quiet on both sides for whatever reasons they chose to do so. If they did, Maury could still going IMing people, but he would probably face penalties if SE ever found out.

Has it happened? Who knows. SE takes months to take any action, so even if they got the list, we probably wouldn't know about it forever anyway.

Edit: Oh, and IF he gave them the list knowing they intend to use it, then him going around and telling people everything is a-ok is pretty scummy. >.>