Random Question Thread VI: I'm No Mathologist, But...

[requim]

I was on my way out the door and I actually forgot to further discount those values for the tp and ws stage for both pairs of rings.

Let's take a monk for instance with destroyers naturally punching for 4.9 TP per fist. A monk requires 21 hits to 100 tp before WS, and 18 after WS. Brutal makes no difference in TP gained. Add in Rajas and that gives you 5.1 tp or 20 hits to 100 and 17 hits to WS (with buffer window for missing hits besides first 2).

The increased WS frequency occurs when we land the 17th hit as the last attack of the round, putting you at 100~102 TP. Going from 18=>17 hits is about a 5.5% increase in frequency. BUT you need to account for the times where you get an extra punch, DA, or KA resulting in too much TP. So that roughly halves the times when you actually get to WS faster.

It would be 2.75% before kicks and double attacks included so I just rounded down to 2.5% WS frequency. Of course we need to remember that for monk is a tp heavy job so you could further round that total increase in damage to a low balled 2%. A normal monk will prolly be punching at below 60 base damage (53 base skill/wep) so the 1 fstr is giving him an increase of min of 59=>60 ~1.7% and a max of 2fstr at 53=>55 ~3.8%. So for 70% of the time he's gaining 1.7~3.8% increase from fstr and then gaining a 2~2.5% increase in WS frequency for 30% of its damage, which should be a minimum increase of ~2% from fstr and stp alone.

Now lets take a thief using blau/SK (favoring stp more) using suppa to have a total delay of 262.4 and swinging for 4.5 tp per swing (same with ACP body). Again brutal makes no difference. With Rajas it knocks it up to 4.7 TP (same with ACP body).

Without Rajas they require 23 hits to WS and require 20 to WS (small chance for 19). With Rajas they require 19 hits (small chance for 18, so ignoring both). Going from 20=>19% is a 5% increase in frequency, but again you need to account for the chance where you're 1 hit from 100 but you have both swings land (should happen prolly half the time) and then the smaller likelihoods of DA/TA procs that land you over 100, remember that they can also land you at 100 even too.

A blau/sk thief will also have a base damage of 33/26 (avg ~30) getting a min increase of 33=>34 ~3% max increase of 26=>28 ~9.3% average increases 30=>31 ~3.3% 30=>32 ~6.7%. This is the lowest delay and base damage combination, so it would favor Rajas more. Honestly not sure what the other in combos are, but in general a thief is prolly gaining at least a 3% increase in their tp swings from fstr then ~2.5% increase in WS frequencies. Were you to have skadi you could use them in place of tping in Rajas or in conjunction for a higher chance to require 17 hits to WS.

Really the simplest way to look at WS frequency for 1 handers is to look at the number of hits you need to 100 and divide them by each other then divide it by 2 for the obvious situation of you being at 95tp and punching something with both fists leaving you at 105.

[CDF]

The increased WS frequency occurs when we land the 17th hit as the last attack of the round, putting you at 100~102 TP. Going from 18=>17 hits is about a 5.5% increase in frequency. BUT you need to account for the times where you get an extra punch, DA, or KA resulting in too much TP. So that roughly halves the times when you actually get to WS faster.

The most critical error (but one that is understandable) is somehow thinking percent change in the nominal number of hits (integers) is the same as the actual percent change in WS frequency, which is a consequence of non-100% hit rate. When it comes to dual wield/H2H, the "real" change in WS frequency can differ from the "nominal" by quite a bit.

Your estimate of 5.5% increase in WS frequency is not even correct anyway for any simplification. As hit rate approaches zero, the change in WS frequency would be (18/17-1)*100% = 5.89% (you did say 17/18 after WS, which itself is a simplification but not very important here), and at 100% hit rate, going from 18 to 17 hits has no effect on WS frequency. (This is all given 0% DA and 0% KA btw.)

Also, adjusting for "too much TP" is nonsense because 100% hit rate is not possible. A few consequences of non-100% hit rate are that (1) regardless of the nominal number of hits required to reach 100 TP, TP in excess of attaining 100 TP is inevitable, and (2) actual changes in WS frequency will be based on ratios of rational numbers (and not integers) that already account for the benefit of store TP not being realized sometimes, so further adjustments to an estimate of change in WS frequency are nonsense.

[pchan]

I was on my way out the door and I actually forgot to further discount those values for the tp and ws stage for both pairs of rings.

Let's take a monk for instance with destroyers naturally punching for 4.9 TP per fist. A monk requires 21 hits to 100 tp before WS, and 18 after WS. Brutal makes no difference in TP gained. Add in Rajas and that gives you 5.1 tp or 20 hits to 100 and 17 hits to WS (with buffer window for missing hits besides first 2).

The increased WS frequency occurs when we land the 17th hit as the last attack of the round, putting you at 100~102 TP. Going from 18=>17 hits is about a 5.5% increase in frequency. BUT you need to account for the times where you get an extra punch, DA, or KA resulting in too much TP. So that roughly halves the times when you actually get to WS faster.

It would be 2.75% before kicks and double attacks included so I just rounded down to 2.5% WS frequency.

Again, no. As you said, there is about 50% of the time where rajas has no effect and 50% where it has an effect. But when it does, it saves you a full round, meaning 348 delay, as apposed to a one handed job (thf for instance) where saving one hit would reduce the delay by 174 only. So when you dual wield, rajas has an effect less often, but when it does, it's twice more important. When you single wield, it always has an effect, but half as important. On average, it's the same : 5% frequency not 2.5%.

[vivix]

Assuming I am too lazy to camp/enm, whats the best dagger on thf to go with Blau?

[Khajit]

Fane baselard and hope you don't get retarded people for the fights.

[Wolfknight]

I think the reasoning is something along these lines:

The 2 acc on Engetsuto gives around 1% hit rate. 1% hit rate is benefiting both the tp and ws phase, as well as the ws frecuency thus being about 1% extra damage.

On the other hand, Gondo 6% crit. is only benefiting the tp phase, not adding anything to the ws frequency and having no effect on Penta damage. If the WS/TP is 50% each for instance (which generally /sam will always be leading more to the WS side), I guess you could say the 6% is only working half the time (3%). Furthermore, polearm on warrior is mostly used when fighting relatively weak targets, so the critical hits are not doing nearly as much damage as they would on harder mobs. If a normal hit strikes a colibri for 100 damage and the critical hit for 150%, its only making it better by a 50% so its adding like 1.5% in the end. Factoring a WS/TP split more common of 60/40 and such, and they will come out about the same, and Engetsuto doesnt need to be unlocked, not to mention the +1stp could be useful depending on missed hits from penta and such, if you are trying for a 6-hit anyway (/sam, stp body and strap, rajas, brutal) because if you are just sticking with a 7-hit you are already overshooting stp and it wont really matter (but if you are going with a 7-hit in most scenarios might as well just stick to your G. Axe).

I am no mathologist, but posting in case it is at least minimally accurate and helpful, if its not, please disregard it.

This, and also Engetsut/+1 have correct evolith slot for plm ws: +acc up to +8 I believe which puts thing more in it's favor.

[Khajit]

goes up to +10

[Mateuns7]

can anyone post the site that compares March x2 to March+Min?
it was like ffxi-maths or something but that isn't turning anything up

[Khajit]

http://ffximath.risen-guild.com/?cat=6

[requim]

You're right, accuracy would make a difference in the calculations, but go figure that almost every build focuses on trying to max hit rate unless you're gimp and stupid.

You should never be below 85% hit rate in merits. So just multiply the expected swings to account for your misses, which should fully be nullified since at least mnk's and thf's should have at least 10~20% extra attack rounds from KA, DA, and TA. So you can basically assume 100% accuracy worth of swings (0.85*1.2=~1).

This go back to the expectation that it will take you about 8.5 rounds to WS.

The most critical error (but one that is understandable) is somehow thinking percent change in the nominal number of hits (integers) is the same as the actual percent change in WS frequency, which is a consequence of non-100% hit rate. When it comes to dual wield/H2H, the "real" change in WS frequency can differ from the "nominal" by quite a bit.

Blah blah blah actual results may vary. No fucking kidding. Thanks for contributing nothing but the obvious.

If I go from needing 9 attack rounds to only needing 9 attack rounds 50% of the time, that's roughly a 5% increase in frequency. If anything I low balled the expected change by halving an extra time.

Regardless dropping a hit can create a noticeable (2%+) difference in WS frequency and produce a pretty decent increase in your total damage before considering the rest of the stats on Rajas or whatever stp item, or at least enough that Rajas will break even or surpass L/K always.

Of course no where along the lines that they would for a two-handed job.

[Wolfknight]

goes up to +10

I know the evolith does, but wasn't sure if it could hold that size as I recall 6 being limit for it.

[Pikarya]

Boxer Mantle, yes it has eva skill, but that doesn't mean shit when you're tanking 3-5 mandies. Equipping -eva stuff just because it has -eva isn't very useful either like your hands, ring, ammo and earring (or other reason for those?) Just grab another mandy if you evade too much. Arhat's Jinpaichi +1 instead of Tiger Mask, the -6% dmg will help you more than 6 guard skill. Second ring, I'd do that Campaign -dmg ring, also Denali hands. I had neither back then, so I just cruised a Phalanx Ring I think in the end and don't remember hands. Pants, I had Temple Hose +1 too, but if you got the Shantotto pants with -dmg it might help too.

If you're dual boxing a RDM for your skill ups with Phalanx 2 you could drop a bit on the -dmg and go with more guard skill and hp. I just had a WHM to dual box. While I skilled, my gear gradually changed from +guard and -eva (much like yours in the quote) to -dmg>guard skill>hp/def. If you do this without something to dual box, then I dunno how the setup would go, I'd assume similar and with a /dnc sub obviously.

Thanks a ton for the information. Yes I will be dualboxing a RDM for Phalanx II/etc.

Also is Busker's Earring worth subbing /PUP for? (I'm guessing no, just wanted to verify)

[Ratatapa]

/pup is an OK SJ for MNK guard skill but only

If you have pup higher then 40 for the WHM head, so you can use it as /pup

but exept that no

[Despain]

If you're skilling up guard, it wouldn't be so bad, depending on what level mobs you're fighting? Personally I'd go /DNC on higher level shit.

[vivix]

Fane baselard and hope you don't get retarded people for the fights.

And assuming I'm too lazy for that! I'm such a lazy fuck.

[CDF]

You're right, accuracy would make a difference in the calculations, but go figure that almost every build focuses on trying to max hit rate unless you're gimp and stupid.

You should never be below 85% hit rate in merits. So just multiply the expected swings to account for your misses, which should fully be nullified since at least mnk's and thf's should have at least 10~20% extra attack rounds from KA, DA, and TA. So you can basically assume 100% accuracy worth of swings (0.85*1.2=~1).

This go back to the expectation that it will take you about 8.5 rounds to WS.

The most critical error (but one that is understandable) is somehow thinking percent change in the nominal number of hits (integers) is the same as the actual percent change in WS frequency, which is a consequence of non-100% hit rate. When it comes to dual wield/H2H, the "real" change in WS frequency can differ from the "nominal" by quite a bit.

Blah blah blah actual results may vary. No fucking kidding. Thanks for contributing nothing but the obvious.

If I go from needing 9 attack rounds to only needing 9 attack rounds 50% of the time, that's roughly a 5% increase in frequency. If anything I low balled the expected change by halving an extra time.

Regardless dropping a hit can create a noticeable (2%+) difference in WS frequency and produce a pretty decent increase in your total damage before considering the rest of the stats on Rajas or whatever stp item, or at least enough that Rajas will break even or surpass L/K always.

Of course no where along the lines that they would for a two-handed job.

It's not just that (percent) changes in WS frequency in the dual wield/H2H case depend on hit rate (contrast with the single wield case where percent changes in WS frequency are independent of hit rate). Actually, for something even more "obvious," where % changes in WS frequency are concerned it's irrelevant to consider realized double attacks and kick attacks in excess of 100 TP because they don't affect % changes in WS frequency by definition. This doesn't mean I said DA and KA don't affect absolute WS frequency lest you want to set up more straw men. Yet you somehow think a thing that has no bearing (hits in excess of 100 TP) means "halving the opportunities when you actually get to WS faster." So much for obvious.

If you go from needing 9 attack rounds all the time to needing 9 attack rounds "50% of the time" (as a first-order approximation because it's not like needing 8 rounds and needing 9 rounds are equally likely events given a non-100% hit rate cap; protip: a statement of fact isn't a suggestion that maximizing hit rate isn't desirable), you're done with ~6% (to be consistent with "after WS" like you said) and cutting it in half is stupid and unnecessary.

As you seem to be someone who might be interested in contributing something "non-obvious," you could just accept that, as though you repeating the same crap makes you right.

[Midnightjade]

How useful is Fendoir for a BST that already has Temp Axe? Is Temp/Fend viable on 72-75 mobs (flamingoes) vs Man/Temp? How about 81-82 (bird camp)? Brutal still valid (I'm guessing yes since jailer weapon)? Average TP/round? And at what level mob does Fendoir become useless due to the low base? All assuming Primal Rend available (which I have).

The axe just dropped so going to test it out but I got to work the rest of the evening. Anyone else tried it?

Sorry for all the questions, and thanks in advance for the help.

[HKR]

Sam/Drg with Wyvren Earring pre 75: Worth it or not?

I'm having trouble either convincing parties to let me bring it out or they're complaining I'm taking too many hits (Any at all).

[Araelus]

Randomer question for the data miners so I don't have to go find some translators.

When extracting game dialogue is there a way to pull different languages in parallel to get lists where the English > Japanese > French > German all line up? If so, how?

This exists on otherwiki for the AutoTranslator but I am aiming towards a game script database concept. (Think: SUBTITLES)

Would settle for just EN + JP, thanks.

[Despain]

Sam/Drg with Wyvren Earring pre 75: Worth it or not?

I'm having trouble either convincing parties to let me bring it out or they're complaining I'm taking too many hits (Any at all).

Assuming /WAR is your other alternative (which it should be? idk), I don't know how 5% haste would fair against Double Attack and Berserk post-50. You'll be sitting at 12% haste (also assuming you're TPing in Swift Belt/Fumas; positive SAM doesn't have access to other haste gear at that level) @ that level with a Wyvern Earring. Personally I'd stick with SAM/WAR, but I'd look for a second opinion.