Einherjar: To /NIN or to /DMG, that is the question

[Kaslo]

Trying too hard.

It's still valid, just the only part of his argument that I was like WTF, just because you have MDT or mDEF gear doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid the magic damage in the first place.

[Shin Volcano]

The problem with those WS you listed..I'd probably still get hit with them because the mob melee'd down utsusemi anyway.

But yeah, /NIN is retarded.

Single target spells? I invested in a MDT build for a reason?
Frontal AoE shit like condemnation and foxfire? Why am I getting hit by these anyway unless opening statement?
lolHydra.
The few times you fight weapons they die instantly, even in dynamis. Otherwise you need a new LS to run with.
Why would I /nin to KV or Serket?
You'd have an argument for fluid toss if it weren't spam and /nin doesn't save you from spam if your mages can't stun.

You're not defenseless, it just requires you to not be a complete retard. And whay's this about WS lock? If you know you're about to pull hate with a WS on something that isn't going to die in 10 seconds then you should probably already have Seigan Third Eye buffed.

So pretty much the gyst of your argument is that the people who are afk jacking off while doing shit should sub /nin.

But so what you get hit with an AoE that won't kill you. Mages are invited to the party for a reason. It wasn't so you could go afk to watch reruns of Cosby.

But hey, I'm ready to break somebody's pearl when i see them come shit like SAM/NIN. Only thing that holds me back is I don't feel like dealing with the bawing afterwards.

I remember some guy was bitching I wouldn't go /NIN to Odin and he kept saying how much I was going to die and be an MP sink. I MPKed him and danced on his gimp /NIN body to prove a point.

Oh? this guy would like to have a word with you about /nin

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Gorgimera

Now while i do agree /nin in most suituations is a crutch he is one prime example of it IS needed, inb4yousuckifyoudieetc unless you can "third eye" tourbillion, to odin? yes you should be shot, because he's all aoe (aside pld/nin duh) but SOMEtimes it does help.

[FailureMidgard]

The problem with those WS you listed..I'd probably still get hit with them because the mob melee'd down utsusemi anyway.

But yeah, /NIN is retarded.

Single target spells? I invested in a MDT build for a reason?
Frontal AoE shit like condemnation and foxfire? Why am I getting hit by these anyway unless opening statement?
lolHydra.
The few times you fight weapons they die instantly, even in dynamis. Otherwise you need a new LS to run with.
Why would I /nin to KV or Serket?
You'd have an argument for fluid toss if it weren't spam and /nin doesn't save you from spam if your mages can't stun.

You're not defenseless, it just requires you to not be a complete retard. And whay's this about WS lock? If you know you're about to pull hate with a WS on something that isn't going to die in 10 seconds then you should probably already have Seigan Third Eye buffed.

So pretty much the gyst of your argument is that the people who are afk jacking off while doing shit should sub /nin.

But so what you get hit with an AoE that won't kill you. Mages are invited to the party for a reason. It wasn't so you could go afk to watch reruns of Cosby.

But hey, I'm ready to break somebody's pearl when i see them come shit like SAM/NIN. Only thing that holds me back is I don't feel like dealing with the bawing afterwards.

I remember some guy was bitching I wouldn't go /NIN to Odin and he kept saying how much I was going to die and be an MP sink. I MPKed him and danced on his gimp /NIN body to prove a point.

I hate /nin as much as anyone else, but if you honestly can't see the benefits to it on certain fights, you're just delusional. It's situational for sure, but if you never /nin on melee, you're doing something "wrong". And "wrong" doesn't mean you can't still win, it just means you're a moron.

To Amastacia, I disagree as to the difference /nin makes on slimes that aren't stunned, but out of curiosity, how do skeletons go for you? I've never seen a shell that had 0 problem whatsoever with skeletons. They generally run mages out of mp and likely cause multiple deaths. Slimes are stunnable, blinkable skeletons that maybe hit a little harder (and take less dmg), but it is night and day between /nin and /other on slimes assuming they aren't stunned, similar to the difference between skeletons and uhh single bats or doomed?

In the end, "Shit is situational", most competent players -should- vastly prefer /sam or /war, but yea, people should acknowledge when shadows are far more useful than anything else (and as a side note, you can most definitely fulltime Hasso in ein as sam/nin).

[Zero Serenity]

To Amastacia, I disagree as to the difference /nin makes on slimes that aren't stunned, but out of curiosity, how do skeletons go for you? I've never seen a shell that had 0 problem whatsoever with skeletons. They generally run mages out of mp and likely cause multiple deaths. Slimes are stunnable, blinkable skeletons that maybe hit a little harder (and take less dmg), but it is night and day between /nin and /other on slimes assuming they aren't stunned, similar to the difference between skeletons and uhh single bats or doomed?

Read this with a little confusion. Are you reffering to blood saber?

[FailureMidgard]

Read this with a little confusion. Are you reffering to blood saber?

that, Malediction, Black Cloud, whatever they spam. It's not hard, I just usually see deaths and lack of MP on them.

[Zubuis]

that, Malediction, Black Cloud, whatever they spam. It's not hard, I just usually see deaths and lack of MP on them.

Our linkshell doesnt have problems with skeletons really. This monday we were given a T3 with Skeletons, Ahrimans and Chair Guy Boss. The skeletons in that case were pretty tough. But in Einherjar the fewer waves you get the more hp the mobs have. So if you get 2 waves with skeletons they are worse because they take longer to die. Opposed if you get 4 waves they will be easier. Your linkshell might just have bad experience with higher hp skeletons.

You run into similar problems in t3 if you get a low number of waves and get like Logi (single bombs) or Dragons or something similar. If the mobs have alot more hp they are far more dangerous depending on the mob. Your probably aware of this.

As for all the /nin discussion. How many blms are all you guys taking?. Our linkshell uses basically 3 dd pt and a blu tank party which comes out to be about 24 people. Any extra people I get them to go blm. I just wonder how you guys have all these blms to stun fluid spread, do you go with 30 people regularly?

I think blm are usefull in Ein but compared to melee they are much less efficient. I guess if you have 30 people so you can sacrifice having 5 blms your golden, unless you dont use a tank/add party which I think makes it much smoother and less prone to failure.

Are you using DRKS to stun fluid spread/various other aoe's? From someone that has both WAR and DRK with pretty much best gear you can get, a WAR vastly outperforms a DRK unless maybe you have a relic.

Like I said I dont think sj matters that much, but /nin is definately safer. /sam or /war is definately faster. If you have good dd and your people never die, 95% chance you never going to lose.

[FailureMidgard]

Our linkshell doesnt have problems with skeletons really. This monday we were given a T3 with Skeletons, Ahrimans and Chair Guy Boss. The skeletons in that case were pretty tough. But in Einherjar the fewer waves you get the more hp the mobs have. So if you get 2 waves with skeletons they are worse because they take longer to die. Opposed if you get 4 waves they will be easier. Your linkshell might just have bad experience with higher hp skeletons.

You run into similar problems in t3 if you get a low number of waves and get like Logi (single bombs) or Dragons or something similar. If the mobs have alot more hp they are far more dangerous depending on the mob. Your probably aware of this.

As for all the /nin discussion. How many blms are all you guys taking?. Our linkshell uses basically 3 dd pt and a blu tank party which comes out to be about 24 people. Any extra people I get them to go blm. I just wonder how you guys have all these blms to stun fluid spread, do you go with 30 people regularly?

I think blm are usefull in Ein but compared to melee they are much less efficient. I guess if you have 30 people so you can sacrifice having 5 blms your golden, unless you dont use a tank/add party which I think makes it much smoother and less prone to failure.

Are you using DRKS to stun fluid spread/various other aoe's? From someone that has both WAR and DRK with pretty much best gear you can get, a WAR vastly outperforms a DRK unless maybe you have a relic.

Like I said I dont think sj matters that much, but /nin is definately safer. /sam or /war is definately faster. If you have good dd and your people never die, 95% chance you never going to lose.

I've never seen serious problems with skeletons, but there are usually some deaths/etc as I said. Anyway, I'm just using them as an analogy where shadows don't work, and stun doesn't work. Slimes probably do more damage if not stunned and not /nin, but I don't see how someone can say that the difference is hardly there.

[Raen Ryong]

Are you using DRKS to stun fluid spread/various other aoe's? From someone that has both WAR and DRK with pretty much best gear you can get, a WAR vastly outperforms a DRK unless maybe you have a relic.

Like I said I dont think sj matters that much, but /nin is definately safer. /sam or /war is definately faster. If you have good dd and your people never die, 95% chance you never going to lose.

If you're both /nin, then yes WAR slaughters DRK. If not, "vastly" is an exaggeration and having two forms of Stun is absolutely wonderful if a lot of people are /sam etc.

[Zubuis]

If you're both /nin, then yes WAR slaughters DRK. If not, "vastly" is an exaggeration and having two forms of Stun is absolutely wonderful if a lot of people are /sam etc.

From my experience a WAR/sam outperforms a DRK/sam in Ein too. I dont know why really just when I parse WAR is always ahead by a good margin. Even if people that have both jobs leveled and they use similar gear, WAR always seems better to me when I parse, is not really the case where I'm comparing a good war against a average dark. For me personally If I was to go WAR to a ein I might parse 40,000 dmg for example but my DRK would be a 32,000 or something similar. Maybe thats not "vastly" to you. But yeah stun is useful.

[Pendulum]

I hate /nin as much as anyone else, but if you honestly can't see the benefits to it on certain fights, you're just delusional. It's situational for sure, but if you never /nin on melee, you're doing something "wrong". And "wrong" doesn't mean you can't still win, it just means you're a moron.

Completely agree. My current shell is fairly low on numbers (especially compared to the last shell i ran with) and whilst we try to win wings, we know we are generally there to farm amps atm.

We had slimes on leeches on sunday and whilst we definitely went in with a bad setup imo, having so many xxx/sam melee go down to fluid spreads severely affected our output. The last melee standing were me on sam/nin and the 2 dnc/nin because whoever took took hate would generally anticipate a few swings, lose third eye from fluid spread and then be taking hits for another 20 seconds. All the while healers were using MP/TP to keep whoever had hate alive and top everyone else up to take another AoE.

Granted I described an absolute worst-case scenario but a lot of things in this game are situational so saying

But yeah, /NIN is retarded.

is just retarded.

[Raen Ryong]

From my experience a WAR/sam outperforms a DRK/sam in Ein too. I dont know why really just when I parse WAR is always ahead by a good margin. Even if people that have both jobs leveled and they use similar gear, WAR always seems better to me when I parse, is not really the case where I'm comparing a good war against a average dark. For me personally If I was to go WAR to a ein I might parse 40,000 dmg for example but my DRK would be a 32,000 or something similar. Maybe thats not "vastly" to you. But yeah stun is useful.

WAR/SAM will outperform every DD out there, speaking nonrelics <_< and yeah, WAR/SAM will still outperform DRK/SAM but not by as much. I don't believe the difference would be that large as well (WAR isn't 25% stronger than DRK) - I would estimate you're looking more at ~35,000-36,000 vs 40,000. Less of a difference if the DRK is allowed to use Souleater which I agree is highly situational (could even make it stronger but muh, MP sponge).

I would consider it a small price to pay in exchange for two extra Stuns sometimes assuming the DRK is good with Stuns.

[pchan]

Get better mages?

In fairness, that's not always a possibility, but it's not like everyone needs to sub NIN for Einherjar because you might get slimes which might use Fluid Spread a few times.

Offensive sub, shockingly, is often less about the epeen than a faster, easier win. You'd be amazed how much easier FFXI is if you are aggressive.

Better mage for what ? You can't stun every move, the mobs in einherjar spam it. /war is stupid yes. Fluid spread ? Who cares. What about body slam ?

You'd be amazed how much easier FFXI is if you are aggressive.

Dieing is not being aggressive. Dieing is sucking, blood tanking is sucking. Going /war and bragging about how you don't take damage is being gimp.

[ZhiGaruda]

Better mage for what ? You can't stun every move, the mobs in einherjar spam it. /war is stupid yes. Fluid spread ? Who cares. What about body slam ?


Dieing is not being aggressive. Dieing is sucking, blood tanking is sucking. Going /war and bragging about how you don't take damage is being gimp.

THIS TIMES ELEVENTYBILLION, Body Slam FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUuuUUUUU

Pchan just made an intelligent post. /thread

[Kidnoftle]

THIS TIMES ELEVENTYBILLION, Body Slam FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUuuUUUUU

Pchan just made an intelligent post. /thread

Up. Fucking. Arrow.

That alone makes it worth it just to sub nin.

[ZhiGaruda]

Up. Fucking. Arrow.

That alone makes it worth it just to sub nin.

I tried going DRK/SAM to Einherjar just for kicks a few weeks ago, you know, what are the odds of getting dragons the one time I decide to have some fun?

Hello Body Slam. Goodbye buffer.

[S N K]

Verbal Vomit.

k..

[FailureMidgard]

Huh? Body Slam is as stunnable if not more stunnable because people are scared of it than Fluid Spread. I still say /nin is fine in Ein, but they aren't that different...if someone is using a "stun 100% of them" argument for Fluid Spread, it'll be applied here.

[Despain]

Dieing is not being aggressive. Dieing is sucking, blood tanking is sucking. Going /war and bragging about how you don't take damage is being gimp.

.

[jammalamma]

Since I'm too lazy to quote, I'll just go by post order.

Why shouldn't the WAR used whatever tanking gear they invested in during a merit party if the situation calls for it? If they got gear swaps for provoke and shit and PDT gear for when they're getting their teeth kicked in, then why not? Then again, any merit party that doesn't let you ride hasso fails anyway. Anyway it just sounds like an excuse to be lazy. But for the whole "you should sub nin to avoid it period." I don't know, if a mage can't handle curing 300 damage or so from a nuke then they should level mnk or something. Really, this is not an excuse to gimp yourself because a mage gets their jollies off of having full MP while afk.

Cause every mob that casts single target spells int he game can be stunned? It's not hypocritical at all. Maybe your experience is limtied to dynamis or some shit, but there's more to the game then that. And don't try to twist it as saying the mobs never get off TP attacks. But in the case of weapons, which you only fight them in like sky and dynamis, they don't I don't know about you, but uh, after getting the first one stunned the weapons usually die. I'm just saying, it shouldn't be taking you 20 minutes to kill a small pull.

With out hasso you might not pull hate? Did you kind of like not see the whole point about being near the hate line? Nevermind the fact that the difference between hasso and seigan isn't really going to make you not pull hate if you sit there spamming.

Mages didn't have to cure bomb me. I just played smarter and MPKed him lol! On shit like that it doesn't even matter, you're both getting cured the same cause of non-stunnable boss that wipes shadows.

Shadow mantle proc tourb. But on a serious note, you can't do the whole einherjer argument. One boss out of how many? And not only that, but just one TP move? Well, I guess plague swipe too but besides that, two TP moves out of like the 4958904095 chances for another TP move from another boss? I'll take my chances. Cause I mean, if you're eating like 5 tourbs somehow then well, you're probably fucked regardless what sub you have.

Almost any situation where you would say "it's situational" about /nin, you'd be better off playing smartly as a different SJ. The situations where you might have a case, like about a single einherjer boss, the context overwhelmingly favors any other SJ where it would not be practical at all. Well, maybe for people with QQ mages "baaaaw gotta spend MP". Pointing out specific mobs in einherjer that you probably aren't going to have to fight to begin is not a really good case when you have many more chances of fighting something you just subbed a useless SJ for.

My LS has a full pretty much every time. =( So we have lots of blm lol! But yeah, DRKs and shit stun too. Stun isn't hard. Well, it must be for some people. "ong fluid spread ; ;".

Anyway, because your LS might be inefficient for whatever reason doesn't suddenly make /NIN an efficient option. It just means you're doing it wrong and should probably reexamine what you're doing so you can start doing it right~ If it means that you might have to, *gasp* recruit people not in your clique to help you, then you probably should. But hey, some people like handicapping themselves for whatever reason. More power to you, but really don't go on some rant about how /NIN is super useful in einherjer when the whole event as a whole would dictate otherwise.

Oh, and I guessed I miss this. Really? BODY SLAM?! Lol, wow. I haven't heard of body slam being serious business since like 2006. Do people really wipe to body slam still..?

[ZhiGaruda]

Spoiler: show

Since I'm too lazy to quote, I'll just go by post order.

Why shouldn't the WAR used whatever tanking gear they invested in during a merit party if the situation calls for it? If they got gear swaps for provoke and shit and PDT gear for when they're getting their teeth kicked in, then why not? Then again, any merit party that doesn't let you ride hasso fails anyway. Anyway it just sounds like an excuse to be lazy. But for the whole "you should sub nin to avoid it period." I don't know, if a mage can't handle curing 300 damage or so from a nuke then they should level mnk or something. Really, this is not an excuse to gimp yourself because a mage gets their jollies off of having full MP while afk.

Cause every mob that casts single target spells int he game can be stunned? It's not hypocritical at all. Maybe your experience is limtied to dynamis or some shit, but there's more to the game then that. And don't try to twist it as saying the mobs never get off TP attacks. But in the case of weapons, which you only fight them in like sky and dynamis, they don't I don't know about you, but uh, after getting the first one stunned the weapons usually die. I'm just saying, it shouldn't be taking you 20 minutes to kill a small pull.

With out hasso you might not pull hate? Did you kind of like not see the whole point about being near the hate line? Nevermind the fact that the difference between hasso and seigan isn't really going to make you not pull hate if you sit there spamming.

Mages didn't have to cure bomb me. I just played smarter and MPKed him lol! On shit like that it doesn't even matter, you're both getting cured the same cause of non-stunnable boss that wipes shadows.

Shadow mantle proc tourb. But on a serious note, you can't do the whole einherjer argument. One boss out of how many? And not only that, but just one TP move? Well, I guess plague swipe too but besides that, two TP moves out of like the 4958904095 chances for another TP move from another boss? I'll take my chances. Cause I mean, if you're eating like 5 tourbs somehow then well, you're probably fucked regardless what sub you have.

Almost any situation where you would say "it's situational" about /nin, you'd be better off playing smartly as a different SJ. The situations where you might have a case, like about a single einherjer boss, the context overwhelmingly favors any other SJ where it would not be practical at all. Well, maybe for people with QQ mages "baaaaw gotta spend MP". Pointing out specific mobs in einherjer that you probably aren't going to have to fight to begin is not a really good case when you have many more chances of fighting something you just subbed a useless SJ for.

My LS has a full pretty much every time. =( So we have lots of blm lol! But yeah, DRKs and shit stun too. Stun isn't hard. Well, it must be for some people. "ong fluid spread ; ;".

Anyway, because your LS might be inefficient for whatever reason doesn't suddenly make /NIN an efficient option. It just means you're doing it wrong and should probably reexamine what you're doing so you can start doing it right~ If it means that you might have to, *gasp* recruit people not in your clique to help you, then you probably should. But hey, some people like handicapping themselves for whatever reason. More power to you, but really don't go on some rant about how /NIN is super useful in einherjer when the whole event as a whole would dictate otherwise.

tl;dr My Einherjar shell runs with 36 people, and so we can afford to have all of our members taking tons of damage and generally sucking at this game, and no one really notices because there are 35 other people to back them up.

Are you seriously going to cite efficiency when you are doing runs with 36 people? Really?