Final Fantasy XIII Might be the last Final Fantasy?

[miokomioko]

BRP, please please please learn the concept of subjectivity.

[BRP]

BRP, please please please learn the concept of subjectivity.

Right back at you.

[Kaylia]

Kaizen perhaps. It's in continually improving that Final Fantasy has reached where it is today. It seems a little bit silly to make cross comparisons between a platformer, a fps and an RPG.

I want good platformer out of my mario.
I want good story out of my FF, but also good gameplay, and good graphics, good music, good voice acting, good character development and enough fan service.

If you haven't gotten my point yet, RPGs are different because they are far more inter-disciplinary than other genres. Other genres do have those components too and they do make up the entire experience, but they are almost always much more focused on 1 aspect of the game, which is its gameplay, than the rest. With modern RPGs, however, because story also takes precedence, every other element suddenly just as important because it can directly influence the story telling.



but if you don't change the gameplay, you basically get a rehash that people will easily know how to play / master and quickly get bored with. Lets face it, RPGs aren't exactly as skill-based as most other genres - mostly all you need is to put time into it, and you can probably bruteforce your way overleveled. Thats not really possible with a platformer or an FPS.

I believe this arises the need to make things more refreshing, which is why gameplay in each of them is always different, and why in recent series entries the changes are more and more radical.

also, as far as i know, the main element that defines an RPG has always been its story, with its definition being pretty loose too. Unlike with other genres, there isn't really a fundamental gameplay style that RPGs necessarily have to share. It lies more in the fact that its story-driven and theres some form of growth progression. after all, Action, JRPG and MMORPGs are all technically part of the RPG genre.

as much as FF's gameplay has changed, it is still very much an RPG. It IS different, but i don't think it was ever meant to be the same to begin with.

Never heard or kaizen before, I will check it out.

Do you think a game like Diablo 2 is difficult? It's kinda the same with old school rpg. People who enjoyed that design enjoy the character progression more than the difficulty of the encounter itself. If you're looking for challenge in a rpg, I agree the "old school" design need to be changed, but it's not what everyone is looking for.

I rarely have issue with any type of gameplay, but personally, I think that a more complete gameplay experience often come at the cost of the length of the game/size of the world, which is something I don't want to sacrifice in a rpg. If they manage to include a huge game, with awesome gameplay and good story, count me in, but based on previous experience, it's not exactly what happen.



Also, I wasnt implying there was something wrong with a franchise that go through complete overhaul (castlevenia, metal gears...i could name so many), but I don't think a franchise where the gameplay stale (aside minor tweaking) is a bad thing either.

And by staling, I'm not talking about copy pasting...I do want to see some work put into a game, not just cash milking.

[miokomioko]

I'm sure I'm not the only one in the world wishing Konami would just make another beautifully done Symphony of the Night or Square-Enix would make another Final Fantasy VI. Certain formulas are successful for a reason. Reusing the same basic battle system and framework as an ultra-successful game doesn't mean you're simply milking it for the money.

Perhaps people liked it for how it played and not that it was simply new?

There's appropriate times to tweak things, "push the envelope," and try something new, and there's also times when it's not necessarily a bad thing whatsoever to go back to ol' faithful but polish it until it's perfect as current technology can allow. Especially during these times when a very large chunk of a fanbase has nostalgic ties to said masterpieces.

[Kaylia]

I'm sure I'm not the only one in the world wishing Konami would just make another beautifully done Symphony of the Night or Square-Enix would make another Final Fantasy VI. Certain formulas are successful for a reason. Reusing the same basic battle system and framework as an ultra-successful game doesn't mean you're simply milking it for the money.

Perhaps people liked it for how it played and not that it was simply new?

There's appropriate times to tweak things, "push the envelope," and try something new, and there's also times when it's not necessarily a bad thing whatsoever to go back to ol' faithful but polish it until it's perfect as current technology can allow. Especially during these times when a very large chunk of a fanbase has nostalgic ties to said masterpieces.

Off topic, but try Rudra no Hihou if you havent. It was made by SE around the same time FF6 was made, and for an old school rpg, it's pretty sweet.

[Spira]

Do you think a game like Diablo 2 is difficult? It's kinda the same with old school rpg. People who enjoyed that design enjoy the character progression more than the difficulty of the encounter itself. If you're looking for challenge in a rpg, I agree the "old school" design need to be changed, but it's not what everyone is looking for.

I rarely have issue with any type of gameplay, but personally, I think that a more complete gameplay experience often come at the cost of the length of the game/size of the world, which is something I don't want to sacrifice in a rpg. If they manage to include a huge game, with awesome gameplay and good story, count me in, but based on previous experience, it's not exactly what happen.

I actually though D2 was hard ;O then again, I was at an age when I was actually fearful whilst trekking in dungeons. LOL. But I do agree, I did like the character progression.. and also the story / flavor of the game.

I'm quite curious to know what your estimate of a good length of an RPG is. And whether it includes like sidequests and stuff like that. Personally I feel that 50hours is like the benchmark for modern RPGs, before actually getting to optional content - in which case FFXIII actually meets the requirements for me (i cleared in 55hrs, and wasted at most 2-3 hours on minor grinding/sidequests). I seem to remember my FFX and XII clears to be around the 50hr mark too.

I've been in the habit of replaying older FFs lately, and in playing FFVII realised how short it was at around 30+ hours only, which somehow felt unsatisfying lol. I don't think its cos I know how to go about everything already too. Can't save that much time. Or maybe the benchmark is just too unfair for older FFs.

I'd love for a massive game too, really. I was pretty impressed with um.. super mario sunshine, cos i felt that it made the game feel very huge even though it probably wasnt. And i liked how it used a 'gimmick' to make the game refreshing, but still fun. to me, I'd say Mario is one of those franchises that is mostly stale, but still fun.
From what i can see with Capcom's Megaman 9 and 10 tho.. that seems more like copypasta yes? Its like they're using 8bit as an excuse to be nostalgic

[Kaylia]

I actually though D2 was hard ;O then again, I was at an age when I was actually fearful whilst trekking in dungeons. LOL. But I do agree, I did like the character progression.. and also the story / flavor of the game.

I'm quite curious to know what your estimate of a good length of an RPG is. And whether it includes like sidequests and stuff like that. Personally I feel that 50hours is like the benchmark for modern RPGs, before actually getting to optional content - in which case FFXIII actually meets the requirements for me (i cleared in 55hrs, and wasted at most 2-3 hours on minor grinding/sidequests). I seem to remember my FFX and XII clears to be around the 50hr mark too.

I've been in the habit of replaying older FFs lately, and in playing FFVII realised how short it was at around 30+ hours only, which somehow felt unsatisfying lol. I don't think its cos I know how to go about everything already too. Can't save that much time. Or maybe the benchmark is just too unfair for older FFs.

I'd love for a massive game too, really. I was pretty impressed with um.. super mario sunshine, cos i felt that it made the game feel very huge even though it probably wasnt. And i liked how it used a 'gimmick' to make the game refreshing, but still fun. to me, I'd say Mario is one of those franchises that is mostly stale, but still fun.
From what i can see with Capcom's Megaman 9 and 10 tho.. that seems more like copypasta yes? Its like they're using 8bit as an excuse to be nostalgic

Well, I guess it could be hard when you rush in high level area with an easy setup, but if diablo doesnt work for you, I'm sure we could find a better example of of an easy/mindless game that is still entertaining.


Good rpg length? It depend of the amount of "fillers", the amount of story, the side quest, the pacing. Some game are pretty slow and have little to do, so even if they take 35h, they will feel shorter than a faster paced rpg with a lot of stuff to do. I don't know, if the first time take 40-50h, and there is 10-20h worth of bonus stuff, I'm generally satisfied.



Megaman 9 and 10 are 10$ at least, and not a full game price. It's hard to say if the price tag is good since we dont know their profit or production cost.

[Spira]

wrong genre.. but tetris perhaps? lol
imagine if they invented Tetris the RPG..

"OMG A SQUARE METEOR IS COMING!"
"Quick! lets direct it into this little pit over here!"

LEVEL UP!

"OMG A LINE METEOR IS COMING! AND FASTER TOO!"

um..

i liked the pacing of FF13 much more than 12... and i don't think its even fair to go into XI. There are a whole lot of cutscenes that kinda interrupt you along the way, but i found that the game flows better because you can kinda pick your battles, instead of slay your way through from 1 side to the other (in XII) or go thru the whole random encounter thing. I really think random encounters would have been too jarring for the rest of XIII.

It does move along very slowly though, but i felt the pacing was good since the whole game moved along at the same rate.. unlike say FF9 where the first disc was like uber slow and suddenly it just goes faster and faster...

I suppose price point is a pretty important factor as well. I forgot to consider that many people do tie their experience of the game to its cost as well. FF7 cost me $9.99 (today), so I guess it's more than worth it for 35hrs, heh.

as for megaman, a part of me thinks that some of the content found in MM9 and 10 were stuff that were developed long ago over the course of the first 6 megamans that were cut out due to space constraints or NES limitations that finally gets to be used. also, since Capcom did develop some kind of random stage generator some time back, they could probably use that technology to create some parts of stages, throw in some effort on other areas and call it a complete work.

the quality of megaman 9 and 10, apart from gameplay, is already below what is expected of students doing Game development courses (then again they work with better engines), so i don't really think production cost is that high.

[Kaylia]

Tetris is no joke




I dont think it fit, since we were talking about game that dont require any sort of skill. Mindless, skillless but fun.


FF13 look great, but the linearity of the story worry me considering I hated that aspect of FFX...but w/e, it still look fun.

[Spira]

omg how does he even..
that is godly insane...

[Minions]

omg how does he even..
that is godly insane...

Same thing I say when I see the first person view of a pro Starcraft player playing. Brain is just like woah.

[arus2001]

A bit late to the debate, but I didn't like FFIX.

[BRP]

Tetris in a Japanese Arcade is on a whole other level compared to a couple of 10 years fucking around on the NES or their gameboys.

[Stiker]

Tetris is no joke

Holy. Shit.

[Koryuu]

how many people thought they were good at tetris till they saw that?

[Rokku]

That shit is nuts.

[Kurokikaze]

You think you're the best but theres always someone better. I thought it couldn't get harder when they literally started falling so fast that you couldn't see them till they hit they hit the bottom... I was wrong.

At first I was like O_O
But then I was like ....

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

casuals