IGN: Top 10 Ways to fix JRPG's

[Antithesis]

Technically, we are all angtsy weeaboos because this is an FFXI Forum and probably everyone on here has played FFXI. The weeaboo is inside of you.

[Thulius]

I agree with most of the list, but the points are hardly specific to jRPGs.

#10 can be applied to just about any game of any genre.

#9 is also an issue in other genres; DMC4 anyone?

#8 is duh.

#7 is a valid point. I like being given the freedom to explore, regardless of whether or not the storyline itself is as linear as a piece of string. EDIT: Not so much the case if all of the exploration centers around bland hunks of rock. I'm looking at you, Mass Effect.

#6 applies to everything.

#5 is the case for anything localized from/to any country.

#4 is applicable on a case by case basis but hardly a rule; multiplayer works for some games and it doesn't for others.

#3 is right on the money, I can't imagine an argument against it that doesn't hark back to nostalgia.

#2 again, not a problem exclusive to jRPGs, though it is slightly more prevalent since story carries more weight as a selling point.

#1 I agree with completely. While menu-based systems aren't necessarily bad (See: Mario RPGs) the fight should entail more than selecting and watching.

It's not such a bad list overall, but specifically targeting jRPGs with it doesn't make any sense.

[willriker]

10.) People Live Here?

There is a balancing act here, for me. And which end of the scale you need to be on depends on what type of feel you are expecting when you enter a town. One major criticism i have about Dragon Age: Origins is that the capital city was almost barren. This is the Main City. Control of it is the chief subplot of the game. But you walk in to find that there isnt very many NPC's around. The only NPC's there are the ones used for quests/missions. Some filler NPC's to give the city more of a lively, bustling feel would have been nice. But the way it was... It kind of made me wonder why so much fuss was being made over it. Thankfully the game has so much else going for it, that this point is a relatively minor one, but it still took away from the game.

It just goes to show you that this problem occurs in WRPG's as well as JRPG's.


9.) The Only Good Filler is Jelly in Donuts

Random fights are the shit, and when used correctly, they add a lot of flavor to the RPG scene. That person who made the analog between filler and Salt was absolutely correct.

But as for the traditional Dungeon Crawl... I am sure there is an inventive way to bypass that aspect of RPG's, but I cant think of one right off the top of my head. Batman: Arkum Asylum is an excelent example of a game where you completely lack any sort of dungeon crawl between the second to last boss and the final boss. Really, after you defeat the second to last boss, you beat up a couple guards and you are placed into the final fight. I was left thinking... i wanted more for that segment of the game. Turns out i like the challenge associated with the 'final level'.


8.) Invest in Presentation

Dialog Box's can rot in hell. I wont miss them. I wont miss trying to figure out how to pronounce an imaginary word like Hyur. I wont miss tapping X after every sentence. I wont miss seeing a character saying AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA in a text box while /laughing... waiting for me to press X.


7.) The Road Less Traveled

Having at least a few points to explore the world is manditory for me. I like to go through to places i have not been to yet. I like having some towns which dont necisarily add anything to the main story line, but have quests to do that add a feeling to the over all game, and direct me into some sort of a commitmet to the over all mission at hand. You completely lack that if the game constantly drops you off into the next area of the main story.

This has happened in both JRPG and WRPG.


6.) Cliches are for Chumps

HAHAHA this is the arch nemisis of any RPG. I do not know how you get away from that. Dragon Age: Origins did a rather decent job at it. But, without giving anything worth while away, the Hume warrior introduction story is all i need to bring up.

Once again, a problem for both WRPG and JRPG.


5.) Voice Acting Approaches

I really dont have much experience with voice acting games. I definately want more though. Die text box Die! What experience i have had, has been nice.

Again you have the same issue with companies going with shitty acting in movies all the time. JPRG's and WRPG's are no diferant.


4.) I Feel So Alone

RPG's are a single player thing. If you want to make entirely seperate activites to do with the character you have been developing within the game, awesome. But if you are going to make an RPG with multiple players, you might as well have been trying to make a MMORPG.

I must say that i have never played a WRPG with this issue.


3.) No More Save Points

Save anytime, of course. Nothing is worse than even thinking of telling my wife that i would have to wait for dinner until i reached a save point. Wow i would feel like a loser LOL.

2.) Write a New Story, Mkay?

SE tried to make a diferant storyline... FFXII was the one i think... the one with Vahn... I hated it so much, i never finished it. Its rotting on my shelf next to excite bike, Atarii's Pole Position. This is one of those cases where the storyline was so aweful that it detracted from everything else in the game. I liked this writers alternatives though.

But, i dont know if this can be considered a critique on the whole industry as opposed to just the JPRG industry. Both kind of fall into this trap.

1.) Battle Systems: Kick It Up a Notch

the attack, item, magic, misc menu is a little old now. Ill give him that. But there is something to be said for the familiarity a playerbase has with this system.

[Cephius]

I actually read the whole thing and I want those few minutes of my life back. Basically the writer's solution to everything is MAKE IT LIKE FALLOUT 3 OR MASS EFFECT. He also makes zero mention of Lost Oddessy, a JRPG that is guilty of many cliches but still pulls off a solid game.

You know what? I hated Fallout 3 and breezed through Mass Effect and think of it as an average game at best. I like linear games, I like a tradational JRPG and I'd buy a hundred Lost Oddessys before I delved into the overhyped trash that was Fallout 3. In my opinion (and I know I'm not alone) the JRPG genre doesn't need fixing, it just needs developers who put out a better product. Every genre gets shitty games, why are JRPGs getting singled out?

[Insanecyclone]

Majority of WRPGs are first person or third person shooters. Majority of JRPGs are sword and magic shit. I'm seeing a little bit of conflict towards what pleases you here.

[Lucavi]

Well Oblivion was Fallout 3 with swords instead of guns. Some try to claim that WRPGs are all about choices, but really, those choices don't amount to very much. JRPGs generally don't give you much of a choice (hitting no instead of yes generally amounts to you getting scolded for a minute, and then having to choose yes or no again), but honestly, what good does having a choice matter when the end result doesn't gain much anyway?

So you pass a speech check in Fallout 3. So what? You either saved some money, earned extra money, or received a little tidbit of extra lore. I'm an extreme lore-whore, but even I can see that there's no real point in offering a good/bad choice to things if there aren't true consequences and results of those choices. Whether you're an asshole or a saint, you still get the same exact decisions on what to do with Project Purity, no matter how much profanity you throw out in text choices along the way.

Both have pros and both have cons -- it'll be interesting to see if they ever successfully merge FFXII with something like Fallout 3, but if they do, please, PLEASE change the shitty run (is it a gallop? A trot?? I feel like I'm ice skating above the terrain!) animation in Fallout.

[Kuya]

Though i really liked Lost Oddessys story, it is probably the best example of shit that is better off being a series or a movie rather than a game, because the battle system was just boring. I hated the random encounters and the battle system was slow and uneventful sans that ring thing. I liked the story, but it's not a game that i would ever want to play again for fun, because i can't have fun with it. Playing it is a chore.

[BRP]

In my opinion (and I know I'm not alone) the JRPG genre doesn't need fixing, it just needs developers who put out a better product.

A truly better product would require "fixing" at least one major issue.

Every genre gets shitty games, why are JRPGs getting singled out?

JRPGs is not so much a genre as a collection of shitty games(or games which are shitted on, if you want to be positive) within a genre. What defines JRPGs to most(retarded definitions which include Kingdom Hearts and etc excluded) are the qualities that hold it back. "The best way to make a JRPG is to not make a JRPG." Most people are only partially aware of the situation and as this is quite easy to grasp for anyone over 14 years old you get articles(and forum posts) like what IGN gives us.

Majority of WRPGs are first person or third person shooters.

lol

Majority of JRPGs are sword and magic shit. I'm seeing a little bit of conflict towards what pleases you here.

There is no inherit conflict between mechanics and themes.

Playing it is a chore.

BUT... BUT... NOBOU UEMASTUUUU

[Julian]

10.) People Live Here?

Could you imagine living in the world of a JRPG? People only have one thing to say. Everything looks sterile and static. Nobody moves much, nor do they care if you ruffle through their houses or crates. There are only a couple of open stores that have anything for sale, and for some reason those goods have a higher price the further away from home you get.

One of the great successes of Bethesda's games, like The Elder Scrolls franchise and Fallout 3, is that the worlds feel alive. They look like they've been lived in. The people act like they have real priorities. They react to each other, but -- more importantly -- they react to you.

We don't need the towns to be redesigned to mimic Western role-playing games. If they did, some of the charm of JRPGs would be lost. It is high time, however, that the towns in JRPGs get an upgrade.

Recent Culprit: Blue Dragon

Does anyone really give a fuck about this? It's called system limitations. In the old NES games, towns were just a few houses, and a few people, because that's all they could really fit. SNES, PSX, PS2, etc, they grew. Towns are larger and more to scale, more homes, tons of people. Towns HAVE BEEN upgraded, person who wrote this is stupid.

Re: People only saying one thing: Do you really want to spam every NPC to make sure you got all of the text? Most people don't even talk to NPCs unless they have to. Personally, depending on the game, if I'm interested, I do enjoy talking to NPCs and obtaining a greater understanding of the setting. Also, in some games, the text does change to reflect events that have happened in the story. For example, an NPC at the start might comment on how pretty the river in the town is, but later in the game might comment on how horrible the tragedy at city x was.

9.) The Only Good Filler is Jelly in Donuts

You've almost saved the world from certain doom. All that's left to do is to run through this last dungeon and confront the ultimate evil. But first, you and your party of unlikely heroes must fight every boss you faced in the previous 50 hours worth of gaming... again.

There are easy ways to add 10 or 20 hours to a role-playing experience. Recycle fights or dungeons. Make the party grind its way up to some arbitrary level before the player can win. Force the character to backtrack across fields full of random battle encounters. We call these things "filler" and they have no place in a JRPG. Nobody remembers them. Nobody enjoys them. Nobody looks forward to them. The only thing they really can do is turn a player away from the genre.

Recent Culprit: The Last Remnant

I'm sorry. What?

Is this guy complaining about having to fight old bosses again? If so.. I can't really think of any RPG where you have to fight the exact same battle again and again. I can remember some enemies who like to show up time after time, each time with a new trick up their sleeves, but they usually aren't the exact same fight over and over. See: Gilgamesh.

The only game that I can think off the top of my head that did what I described was Okami. How many times did I have to do the same fucking Orochi fight? Like 3 times? What about that spider with the blooming tail or whatever? Shit got old pretty fast. Still a great game though.

Other thing this guy might be talking about is revisiting old dungeons for stupid reasons? If so, this isn't really very common, and the only game that I can think of that forced this to a horrible extreme was Tales of Legendia. Character quests were so repetitive. This is hardly something that's present in most games.

And the only other thing that I can think this guy might mean, is grinding. I don't really think grinding is necessary in the majority of games, especially the most recent ones, unless you just want to grind yourself to the point where you're so powerful that everything becomes easy. This varies from game to game, but you can usually avoid grinding by being careful with what skills/jobs you do, being careful with your money, and being smart in battles. Grinding a little bit here and there if the game play is fun isn't really too much of an issue, I think.

8.) Invest in Presentation

Any gamer familiar with the JRPG will immediately recognize what we like to call the "talking cardboard cutout." This classic mechanic superimposes character portraits onto the screen and displays a dialogue box underneath, which effectively eliminates the need for developers to animate sprites or character models. This technique is getting old fast. With Western RPGs implementing fully animated, interactive dialogue sequences (see Mass Effect and Dragon Age), players have come to expect more production value when dealing with an RPG storyline. Developers can't cut corners anymore.

If budget is a concern and a studio can't afford to present every section of dialogue in a cinematic fashion, why not come up with a unique way of telling the story? The talking cardboard cutout isn't a necessity -- it's a crutch.

Recent Culprit: Disgaea 3: Absence of Justice

The Real Culprit: Graphics.

I don't believe that not being a big cinematic game is a budget thing. It's called a different style. Maybe they want to focus more on the storyline and gameplay, rather than using up the majority of their time making omgwtfgraphics.

7.) The Road Less Traveled

One of the most important elements of the traditional JRPG was exploring the world map. After all, there was nothing quite as liberating as acquiring the key to your very first airship and taking to the skies, flying over vast oceans and sprawling mountains with an entire world to explore.

Although some JRPGs still attempt to keep this broad structure, many have been tragically limited. Players will often be nudged from Point A to Point B with almost no freedom to explore. Japanese developers need only look at the popularity of games like Fallout 3 to see that open worlds are greatly appreciated by gamers. Yes, a JRPG can still have a linear story, but that linear quality needn't extend into the gameplay

Recent Culprit: Eternal Sonata

Once again, the real culprit here is graphics.

I love the world map just as much as the next person, but when you start making every field like a damn MMO, you end up killing the world map in the process.

Unless this person actually was requesting these stupid huge worlds that take 30minutes+ to go from one side to another, if so, fuck you.

6.) Cliches are for Chumps

An unfortunate habit of Japanese developers is to stick with recognizable archetypes for character designs. The lone swordsman. The charming female magic user. The mildly frustrating -- but still lovable -- little kid. The bird-dude that uses a poison mace and keeps a smaller bird-dude as an adorable pet. We've seen them all before and we want something new.

Let's not mistake this for a general dislike towards anime-style designs -- quite the contrary. We love anime and we love the Japanese aesthetic, but developers need to shake things up a bit and give us characters that we haven't seen before. After all, the cast of an RPG is the lifeblood of the entire game. If a player can't grow to love the characters and connect with the experience on a deeper level, we'd argue that the game has -- at least to a certain degree -- failed.

Recent Culprit: Magnacarta 2

Uh, isn't Magna Carta Korean? Lol. I think anyway, I may be wrong, if so feel free to correct me.

The bird-dude that uses a poison mace and keeps a smaller bird-dude as an adorable pet.

...?

I kinda agree that generic stereotypical characters do get a bit old after a while. I don't think it's too much of a problem because they usually use the story to develop and change those characters over time.

Coming up with new and original characters isn't all that easy either, especially when so many things have already been done before.

5.) Voice Acting Approaches

You've all seen it before: a review that includes the fabled line "terrible voice acting" somewhere in the text. Many JRPGs suffer from this problem, and while this issue could be the result of a simple lack of localization funds, there's a much more troubling problem to be found: differences between U.S. and Japanese culture.

In Japanese animation, games and more, extremely childish, high-pitched voices are as common as sophisticated and comfortable toilets. But that sort of vocal styling is alien in the United States. This is not to say it doesn't work in Japan, but when an American voice actor or actress attempts to mimic that same style in a different language and culture, it just doesn't sound natural. It might require more effort in the localization process, but publishers bringing over Japanese RPGs should attempt to better adapt actual character personalities to suit a Western audience. Unless you're going to keep the Japanese voice track and subtitle it (which is an absolutely welcome option), some changes need to be made.

Recent Culprit: Enchanted Arms

Hmm, voice acting is an issue with the localizers, not the original creators of the game, unless they're the exact same team that's also localizing it.

Now here's the funny thing: Who localizes games?

This is the fault of the American, aka, WESTERN, companies, that fail at localizing. (Being sarcastic here, for those people who can't tell.)

4.) I Feel So Alone

Games like Diablo and the recently released Borderlands have shown us that gamers love playing online with others. Even more telling than the success of those titles is the rabid popularity of MMOs and the now household recognition that World of Warcraft so readily enjoys. JRPGs need to learn from these design philosophies and incorporate online elements.

The upcoming PS3 exclusive, White Knight Chronicles, is a perfect example of a JRPG that is trying to capitalize on the popularity of online gaming. The game not only has a full single-player campaign but it also has an online multiplayer mode for taking created characters into the battlefield with other gamers. Expanding a game's scope to include multiplayer is an excellent way to increase a game's replay value.

Recent Culprit: Tales of Vesperia

Games like Diablo and the recently released Borderlands have shown us that people that like those games like to play them online.

Spoilers: People that like those games does not necessarily mean people who like JRPGs.

For fucks sake, it's an RPG, an interactive story book, it's a SINGLE PLAYER GAME. If you want to play online, play those kinds of games that have online modes.

The only type of RPG that I could see working well with online would be SRPGs, like FFT, Fire Emblem, etc, although it would be incredibly broken, and in the end really just a gimmick.

3.) No More Save Points

Many of us grew up with Japanese role-playing games and have heads filled with happy memories of staying up all night to best a particular dungeon or grind our way towards victory. Along the way... we grew up. Carefree youth filled with lazy summers and nothing more than a book report to distract has given way to lives with actual responsibilities.

While a four hour dungeon with no option to save may have been OK once, and maybe even added to the tension, it isn't anymore. We need to be able to start and stop our gaming at our leisure. We need to be able to walk away from a game and not have to leave a system running (Think of the environment!) for fear of losing hours worth of progress.

Let us save our game whenever we want. Then toss in some checkpoints for good measure, just in case we forget to make use of that liberty.

Recent Culprit: Star Ocean: The Last Hope

Q_Q More

I do agree that more games need to use the "Quick save" option, which basically lets you save wherever and whenever, but it also quits the game at the same time, and deletes itself when you resume.

Or maybe they should just let you save/load anywhere, and hey, why stop there? Let's add save states!

2.) Write a New Story, Mkay?

How many times have we filled the shoes of a lonely teenager from a small village? How many times has that village been attacked by a wandering group of bandits? How many times has your videogame father, in his final moments of life, whispered to you that you are in fact the promised one, destined to bring Order, Life and Beauty to a world besieged by the never-ending waves of darkness?

Not all JRPGs follow the stereotypical plots we've grown a little too accustomed to (the Persona series shows us that the Japanese can get real creative in that department), but we want some innovation when it comes to storytelling. After all, an RPG's story is one of its fundamental selling points -- why recycle such precious material when it could make the game shine? Let's have an RPG revolve around a mother searching for her child, or perhaps a ghost investigating his own death. We came up with those ideas in 15 seconds, okay? Surely JRPG developers can do better!

Recent Culprit: Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII

1.) Battle Systems: Kick It Up a Notch

Although story, characters and musical scores are all extremely important elements to the JRPG equation, the absolute heart of the experience lies in the battle system. Players will spend most of their play time fighting all sorts of monsters and villains, so that battle system needs to be finely tuned and fun. Unfortunately, a number of JRPGs have relied heavily on the now dry tradition of the simple "Attack, Magic, Item, Defend" dynamic that we've seen for decades. This just doesn't cut it.

A good battle system needs a good hook -- something to set it apart from its peers. Think Final Fantasy VI's Magicite or Breath of Fire's dragon transformations. A JRPG needs to make battles so fun, you're eager to encounter another enemy. It's been a long time since we've felt that way.

Recent Culprit: Spectral Force 3

Putting these two into one, because I believe that both gameplay and storyline are the two major parts of an RPG.

I think the main thing that this person doesn't seem to understand, is that all genres have shitty games. There are some people that still make JRPGs that are incredibly cliche and boring. I'm sure there's also people that still make <insert other genre> games that also suck. This is nothing new.

Personally, I like a good balance of both. A story that's decent enough to keep me interested, and a battle system that doesn't make me want to just run away from every encounter. Being really strong on one but below average on the other works out sometimes too.

I do agree that excelling in both of these at the same time would be great, and would indeed make for an awesome game. This, however, is not a specific problem with the RPG genre, but a problem with lazy developers overall.

edit: fuck, Cephius beat me

[Cadsuane]

Majority of WRPGs are first person or third person shooters. Majority of JRPGs are sword and magic shit. I'm seeing a little bit of conflict towards what pleases you here.

WRPGs didn't exist before fallout and Mass Effect apparently.

[BRP]

We should continue having everyone respond to this list then one year from now we can do a 2010 Weeaboo JRPG Fanboy of the Year award. Or even better: make a list of 10!

[Gokulo]

WRPGs didn't exist before fallout and Mass Effect apparently.

Umm, don't go too far there. Some of the first wrpgs for me were Ishar, Dungeon Master, Eye of Beholder. And most of the even older ones I can think of are first perspective too.

[Cadsuane]

Umm, don't go too far there. Some of the first wrpgs for me were Ishar, Dungeon Master, Eye of Beholder. And most of the even older ones I can think of are first perspective too.

Oh, congratulations. So you can't be having the mistaken impression that the fantasy setting or even its application to RPGs (or wargame derivatives aping RPG narratives, fuck off BRP you know what I mean) was in any way a japanese invention or that a fantasy setting is atypical for a WRPG, and that being the case I have no fucking idea why we're talking.

[Cephius]

We should continue having everyone respond to this list then one year from now we can do a 2010 Weeaboo JRPG Fanboy of the Year award. Or even better: make a list of 10!

If you want to classify someone who likes linear traditional JRPGs as "fanboys" then I really don't care, because that's what I am. I like how people imply that liking either WRPGs or JRPGs is somehow inherently wrong.

[Lucavi]

I seriously don't know why you label anyone who enjoys playing any JRPG a fanboy, BRP. I know you aren't trolling, but you're far too heavy-handed with your labels. Its to grow up with something and enjoy something for the positives that it does bring without being some slavering fanboy.

Every genre needs to be improved - that's the nature of evolution of entertainment. Singling out JRPGs simply because of "weaboos" that annoy you is pretty droll.

There are plenty of WRPGs that weren't exactly the bee's knees either. I remember shadowgate being pretty un-fun, with the exception of the excellent music for the time.

[Gokulo]

Oh, congratulations. So you can't be having the mistaken impression that the fantasy setting or even its application to RPGs (or wargame derivatives aping RPG narratives, fuck off BRP you know what I mean) was in any way a japanese invention or that a fantasy setting is atypical for a WRPG, and that being the case I have no fucking idea why we're talking.

Well, I do feel stupid now. Reading quickly I misunderstood what you were trying to say. My bad

[Elcura]

I enjoy JRPGs. Oh no!

[BRP]

I seriously don't know why you label anyone who enjoys playing any JRPG a fanboy, BRP.

I don't label everyone that way, but it would certainly have to be a requirement. Another one being moronic, defensive reactions to shitty IGN articles.

Every genre needs to be improved - that's the nature of evolution of entertainment.

True, this is done by making good games. Good games are improved on with updates and they become good series. Design theory is splintered and new series are born. Bad games can also be shipped this way. They might benefit very little from this nature of evolution. What you have with most JRPGs is a rotten tree that continues to grow and produce rotten fruit. Though it is more like a branch that has gone bad, really. (Also eating too much of this rotten fruit will make worms grow in your brains, making you dumb... at least pertaining to all sensations you feel from videogames.)

Singling out JRPGs simply because of "weaboos" that annoy you is pretty droll.

JRPG gets singled out for several reasons, none I've said so far being weeaboo bait. One being that JRPG is not and never has been a proper subgenre and it gets an enormous amount of leniency on criticism because of this(only now is this starting to change in America, but barely so). JRPG game design, which makes them distinct enough to fool people into thinking it is a genre, is rather offensive and stands out as bad. As for the reason IGN is hating on JRPGs it is because they think Fallout 3 and Mass Effect are "NEXT-GEN WRPGS." So they are under the impression that there is a lot of GENRE EVOLUTION going on here when in reality they are blind. (They also might enjoy FPS and TPS more, and thus think they are much more superior to shitty strategy games.)

There are plenty of WRPGs that weren't exactly the bee's knees either.

How could this be?!

[Charismatic]

Ain't no 10 ways, that list is one thing long.

Make em all play like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGIbaMjBmfg

[Charismatic]

No variety.