IGN: Top 10 Ways to fix JRPG's

[Jefe]

I grew up w/ the typical RPG formula from the days of yore (FF, Chrono Triggers, etc.): intricate stories; memorable characters; grinding, shit load of skills, magic, weapons, armour, stats; huge worlds/lengthy games; etc. Playing a WRPG feels fucking weird. Wtf are you, a FPS, an action adventure w/ lvling? It's sorta like one of those motorcycles w/ pedals on them.

[Lucavi]

What do you consider to be a good game, period, BRP? What series has performed to your high standards of quality, evolution, and presentation? I'm interested to know what you consider to be a game, or series, that continues to move swimmingly along the evolutionary tract of video games.

I have my own thoughts on the matter, but as always, assuming anything in regards to you is foolhardy. I'd rather hear it straight from your mouth, or your fingers.

P.S. I don't disagree with you in terms of your rationale on what constitutes a good game, I simply have lower expectations than you in regards to how realistically such changes that need to be implemented in gaming WILL be implemented. The speed in which the core of games (plot, substance) moves is incredibly slow - the graphic and presentation advances far ahead of the actual meat of a game or series. I just feel that regardless of that sluggish pace, there are gems of entertainment that can be gleaned from these games, and that by appreciating them while recognizing that games need to advance simply works better than giving off the aura that nothing pleases you because things are moving too slow.

None of us here are developers, and I'd wager that very few of us will ever reach a position where we can actively speed up that slow crawl of real evolution. Regardless, there's always still fun to be had in each game, regardless of that urge to slam it for not advancing fast enough.

[BRP]

What do you consider to be a good game, period, BRP? What series has performed to your high standards of quality, evolution, and presentation? I'm interested to know what you consider to be a game, or series, that continues to move swimmingly along the evolutionary tract of video games.

These questions easily overbear the subject at hand so I'll keep this as brief as possible. A good game is a deep one, an interesting one, a game you learn from. A good sequel is one that continues this trend of learning by making the game more complicated. This can be a marginal increase(Street Fighter II -> Street Fighter' II CE) or a big leap(Super Street Fighter II Turbo -> Street Fighter 3). The problem with JRPGs isn't that they "rehash" or whatever(though IGN will no doubt say this), it is that they require a big leap(or a step back then forward) in order to be good. Of course all this is a rather long way to say: Make the battle systems good and make good use of that system. (Since it is bound to come up: there is a great difference between grinding(filler) and learning. Grinding is fake depth, which gives the illusion of player growth through uninteresting task. So all those levels, stats, monster entries, and so on may be complicated, but not in a way that makes the game deeper.)

As for "subjectivity" how deep a game is is entirely subjective... it doesn't even need to be said! Someone who has spent years playing fighting games won't be as impressed with Mortal Kombat as someone who's barely touched them. (So basically when someone says "I like Final Fantasy! It is subjective, BRP!" it sort of looks like "I don't know shit about vidyagaems, but I am still going to yell about them!")

[Charismatic]

As for "subjectivity" how deep a game is is entirely subjective... it doesn't even need to be said! Someone who has spent years playing fighting games won't be as impressed with Mortal Kombat as someone who's barely touched them. (So basically when someone says "I like Final Fantasy! It is subjective, BRP!" it sort of looks like "I don't know shit about vidyagaems, but I am still going to yell about them!")

This is the only part I take issue with.
I like Final Fantasy games and I've played a large number of other 'systems' 'sets of rules' or games.
As far as Final Fantasy games are concerened... I enjoy them for their simplicity.

I don't enjoy Final Fantasy games as much as many other series (Star Ocean 3, Tales of Destiny 2 and Tales of Eternia are my favorite 'jRPGs'). I recognize that there are many flaws in these games, just like with the Final Fantasy series, but liking them doesn't mean that I don't know anything about video games. That's just silly talk.

I will say, however, that with the exception of the gambit system... Final Fantasy XII International: Zodiac Job System is probably the closest to a good game that the Final Fantasy series has come. There's still some work to be done but I think that it's a huge leap in the right direction in comparison to the other 'main series' entries. I'd like to know what you think on that since I remember you expressing a distaste for Final Fantasy XII in the past.

[Celeras]

Whenever theres a thread about RPGs, you can count on BRP trolling it relentlessly.

Articles not terrible, some decent points. I certainly appreciate change in the genre, especially after going back and replaying some of my favorites from yesteryear. Getting 'stuck' on FFVI because I failed to talk to the half hidden/least likely NPC in town who just so happened to have the one piece of information required to push the story forward? Glad that shit's gone.

[ZarakiKujata]

As much as I love Bioware and Bethesda rpgs, this article dickrides both studios a bit much. Both studios as well as other wrpg makers have games that are as guilty of parts of this list of 10 as their jp counterparts. I do however agree that JP rpgs this generation have gotten particularly boring, Enchanted Arms and Lost Odyssey are the last 2 I remember finishing, whereas every other one I've picked up remains half finished if that. Maybe FFXIII and White Knight Chronicles will change this?

[BRP]

This is the only part I take issue with.
I like Final Fantasy games and I've played a large number of other 'systems' 'sets of rules' or games.
As far as Final Fantasy games are concerened... I enjoy them for their simplicity.

Don't take the mock quote too literally. Basically talking about people who use opinions as counterarguments.

Whenever theres a thread about RPGs, you can count on BRP trolling it relentlessly.

Articles not terrible,

Now who's trolling?

[Atreides]

am I the only person who finds this whole article and subsequent debate pointless since JRPG developers more than likely don't give a flying fuck what we think?

[Kuya]

I know that if i were a JRPG developer, i wouldn't give a fuck as long as there are retards out there printing me money.

[Lucavi]

God, its been too long. I can't even remember how to quote other people.

Its unsafe to assume here, but I'll have to take the bait and assume that you consider what Street Fighter has done over the years as a good series, but even Street Fighter has many similarities to the FF series.

They have both tried (and failed on occasions) new tricks, gimmicks, and systems in an attempt to keep things fresh, and as a result (among other things), they both have rabid fanboys and haters that continuously fight over the various musings and concepts that each series presents.

SF has been criticized many times for doing the same thing too many times, just like FF. I'll admit that the FF series doesn't get called out on it as much as SF, but in its defense, the SF series' characters remain far more static than those of FF, even though they gain new moves and balances. Ryu, despite being fairly different than his original self, is still Ryu, simply as a warrior class character in a FF title has remained essentially the same.

Take it a bit farther and you see that most fighting games are incredibly static, save for a few tweaks here and there, and for the most part, people remain excited about them. Tekken 5 to Tekken 6 was a relatively significant leap, but Tekken 3 to Tekken 4 was not so much, outside of graphics and presentation.

FF 10 to FF 11 was a fairly significant leap, despite there still being the series standard fight, magic, item commands - that's no different from Tekken always having its buttons mapped to individual striking limbs, or the SF series having 6 types of attacks. FF7's limit breaks were Street Fighter Alpha's 3-level super bars in comparison to FF6's Desperation attacks and Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo's super gauges. Not a lot of advancement, but done so in a way that keeps both series moving.

I'd say the largest difference is simply the amount of replay you can take out of them. FF is largely single player - SF is largely multiplayer. If Street Fighter was single player only, there's no way anyone would have discovered the amount of depth that comes with the engine: trying to compare their evolutions is unfair simply by design of the genres.

The FF series could use a completely different direction, absolutely. FF going MMO was a good thing, IMO, in terms of forcing FF to move out of its comfort zone. Once you step into MMO land, you open yourself up to far more forced user feedback, and you then have to address those issues. We know Japanese companies are very, very slow when it comes to addressing customer and fan concerns - its a polarizing difference between what could be considered Japanese vs. Western games. Half the reason Blizzard is so popular is because if nothing else, they listen, they react, and as a result, they advance.

I think its unfair to assume or even assert that some collective intelligence flies out the window when RPGs are discussed. Fanboys are everywhere. Try having this same discussion in relation to Mario Fanboys, or Halo Fanboys. Rabid is rabid, but just because someone plays a series and enjoys the series as a whole, doesn't mean that the person doesn't recognize a need for change or an upgrade. I'm guilty as well: I'd love nothing more than a true prequel to FFIV, with a shitload of fleshed-out content in regards to Kain, but I equate a RPG's success more in terms of how engrossed I become in the story, not how simplistic or old-fashioned the system is.


::Edit: Atreides, I mentioned that above. There are plenty of Japanese series and genres that are stagnant simply because they will only implement their design of how their game should be, suggestions or criticisms-be-damned. The U.S. market is no shining star, but on the whole it is far more engaged in what its customers want... just as downloadable content.

[Charismatic]

One more thing, this argument almost feels pointless when there are games like this around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqYEH6JDzXM


The series is gaining more and more popularity in the west, as sales rise... others will certainly follow suit.



I guess what I'm trying to say is that jRPGs are already fixing themselves. (slowly)

[Corrderio]

Is it just me or has all this JRPG bashing came due to the criticism FF13 has got? Other than FF2 I never had that many complaints about the games at all. They were fairly straight forward to learn and fun with a good story, and I'm probably a minority but I prefer text over VA since a horrible voice can ruin a moment in a game.

[BRP]

Lucavi I skimmed your answer and it seems to be entirely irrelevant to my previous post. It seems to jump in a bunch of directions at once and go nowhere far. As for why I say all intelligence is gone when it comes to J/W/RPGs being mentioned, it is because there is a widespread misunderstanding on the subject. Things fall apart fast, especially if we start doing WRPG vs JRPG.

[Nitsuki]

An alternate, and possibly more correct title: How to turn JRPGS into WRPGS.

There's always been that difference between the two. We should keep it that way. :/

[Lucavi]

@BRP: The tldr version is 3-fold. 1) Your Street Fighter viewpoint is flawed, at least if you're going to claim that SF does something innovative that FF does not. They're actually very similar through the years.

2) JRPGs haven't received the scrutiny that they deserve, but that scrutiny is irrelevant as the JP mindset is NOT to change things based on public complaint or criticism.

3) Replay value has a lot to do with innovation in terms of successful series. Multiplayer games are easier to "innovate", because much of the innovation can stem from a chance encounter of the player-base discovering new things while playing so much. Its hard to "find" innovation in a single player game: it has to be packaged and thrown in your face in the instruction guide or trailer. This isn't so with multiplayer games like SF, where one new discovery by 2 players in an arcade can completely revolutionize how people (including developers) look at the game, and as such, what direction the game heads in during future installments.

[Insanecyclone]

http://i45.tinypic.com/2u8l66x.jpg

[Corrderio]

http://i45.tinypic.com/2u8l66x.jpg

Cue the "Over 9000" image?

EDIT: Now that I think about it, wonder if this article was wrote by that guy that posted a rant on YouTube about FF sucking around the end of December.

[Lucavi]

Haha, epic pic, although Disgaea was all about giving grind-whores what they wanted. A bit of fanservice, if you will.

Now if only they could give Legion-leading War General-types like myself more Ogre Battle 64 action...

[GentaiShinigami]

This article is asking to turn JRPGs into WRPGs. -Pre-emptive strike: I like both WRPG and JRPG, and would like to continue to keep both of them around in the forms they are currently in.- I'm sorry, but I buy and play JRPGs because I LIKE JRPGs. If I didn't like them then I could and would go buy something else. I seriously don't understand all the people hating on JPRGs lately. If you don't like it then stfu and don't buy it, and leave the people who do like the games, and the games themselves alone. If they suck that bad, and no one likes them they will die out on their own from lack of profit. I don't think WRPG fans would agree with the idea of taking everything that makes a WRPG, and changing it to how JRPGs do it. Some people actually enjoy straight turn based menu driven old school RPGs, and don't want things to be how they are in WRPGs. That's why I play and enjoy my WRPGs!

While WRPGs have been around for a longer time, JRPGs enjoyed much more mainstream success in my opinion in the PSX+PS2 era, and for a while there was a huge flood of JRPGs riding the wave. There were little to no huge mainstream hit WRPGs (yes I know there were some, but not nearly as many). Obviously, now that there are several big budget awesome WRPGs out, and few really good JRPGs there people are flocking to the new kid on the block while the old one gets hated on for not being the new one. ~_~

Personally, for example, I eagerly await each Dragon Quest game, and while they are all basically identical, childish, cliche, and un-original I really don't care because they are FUN to me. To me that's the best part of Dragon Quest is that I know when I pop it in and start playing it I don't have some bastardized game trying to be "hip" or "original". I have Dragon Quest, and it's the Dragon Quest that I like, and the whole reason I bought this new version was to experience it again! If they want to try some new fancy battle system or something then make it a different Intellectual Property instead of ruining a game that already has a solid fanbase that likes it how it is.

As far as voice acting is concerned I used to be of the same mind, but then I watched the "Adventures in Voice Acting" DVD (you can see some on Crunchy Roll for free), and it really changed how I view NA dubs. You have to understand that in something like TMNT for example (which I've never really heard dub complaints about) the cast could all say anything they damn well pleased because the mouth is animated to what the VA's say after the fact. They are also all in the same room at the same time doing the lines which allows them to have much more chemistry, and truly show reaction and emotion to the lines they are given. In dubs however, you can only speak something that matches up to however many mouth flaps the character has at any given moment or else you end up with something like the Godzilla dubs which have been mocked for ever because of the mouths not matching. They know what they want and need to say, but they only have room to speak something of a certain length. This also means that they have to do the people one at a time rather than in a big group where they can read the lines together. This is not to say that there are not horrible dubbing companies though, and some really could be much better. My point is though that even the best studio will have severe limitations placed on them which really hurts the ability to make the dubs truly shine.

Anime/game VA's that do dubbing are also paid HORRIBLY, and the work is much harder than doing non-dub VA work. So naturally you are going to have some varying degrees of talent for such small pay. All of these factors add up, and make it quite a mistake to compare JP VA to NA dub VA. It's comparing Apples to Oranges. If you simply must compare then do dub to dub or non-dubs to non-dubs. I'd imagine that in Japan when they dub over NA voices they probably are not very appealing to the Japanese even though Japan has generally higher quality VA's (Modern Warfare 2 was said to have horrible JP VAing iirc).

So really what I'm trying to say is JRPGs don't need saving/changing at all. Changing them to save them would be the same as killing them because they won't be JRPGs anymore, and if this articles writer had his way they'd be WRPGs. If you don't like them then I really can't see why you would care how they do anyway. If anything they serve as competition to WRPGs which helps make sure WRPG Developers keep trying their hardest. No competition can only be bad for the consumer.

There are plenty of people in the world though that are quite happy to play offline by themselves, clicking buttons to trade attacks with mobs, and to have linear stories and dialog with cliche characters. There aren't many truly original ideas left anymore anyway. Everything is just combining old ideas together or mixing things up to make it appear that it is original. Most things have simply just been done already. Also, don't hate on dubbing VA's so hard. While it's an easy thing to do (and sometimes deserved) they really do have a hard job, and try to do the best they can (most of the time anyway).

Now, if you'll excuse me I must get back to playing and enjoying Dragon Age AND Dragon Quest! =O Variety is nice.

[Cadsuane]

JRPGs haven't received the scrutiny that they deserve, but that scrutiny is irrelevant as the JP mindset is NOT to change things based on public complaint or criticism.

No, that's stupid. Every developer does focus groups and market research and they take the results very seriously. Even if JP developers don't make a big show of releasing 50 interviews and developer diaries a week it's nevertheless true that JRPGs suck shit only because people apparently like games that suck shit, and they're poorly served by critics who are only now getting the balls to honestly criticize them instead of instinctively 10/10'ing every overproduced final fantasy that comes out.

This article is asking to turn JRPGs into WRPGs. -Pre-emptive strike: I like both WRPG and JRPG, and would like to continue to keep both of them around in the forms they are currently in.- I'm sorry, but I buy and play JRPGs because I LIKE JRPGs. If I didn't like them then I could and would go buy something else. I seriously don't understand all the people hating on JPRGs lately. If you don't like it then stfu and don't buy it,....

I'm surprised I read even this far into it.