What's Better?

[Fottiti]

It's not only that, but keep in mind that VE decays at 60 VE/sec, and is constantly recapped every hit and ws. Combine that with the actuality that people don't engage at the same time, and that per hit damage varies. The Enmity+ helping counterstance is overstated. Calculations and models help comparisons, but if your model concludes "So it's all about +3 DMG vs being the only one to counter.", then your model has problems.

Yeah, I was more referring to CE because Pchan suggested that the damage dealt from TP moves will prevent you from capping CE. Obviously VE should be recapped every round (unless you get unlucky and miss) as it is unaffected by damage taken.

[Kirschy]

Yeah, I was more referring to CE because Pchan suggested that the damage dealt from TP moves will prevent you from capping CE. Obviously VE should be recapped every round (unless you get unlucky and miss) as it is unaffected by damage taken.

yea sorry my bad, I wasn't realli responding to you as much as the overstated effect of enmity+ in affecting counters.

[mdkuser]

what you guys say totally contradict the parses of me vs pchan, with same gear except weapons: HS+1 versus destroyers, where the HS+1 monk does 2x more counters than the destroyers one: the dmg difference in the end is exactly the counter damage difference, which is if I recall 3k dmg for at the end of the fight ( 50k dmg total). I had parses where i almost never countered as well.

[Cream Soda]

You have brown belt too, or did the tard finally get a black belt?

[Cream Soda]

what you guys say totally contradict the parses of me vs pchan, with same gear except weapons: HS+1 versus destroyers, where the HS+1 monk does 2x more counters than the destroyers one: the dmg difference in the end is exactly the counter damage difference, which is if I recall 3k dmg for at the end of the fight ( 50k dmg total). I had parses where i almost never countered as well.

and what you say totally contradicts Pchan, who says the hades+1 would get ALL the counters. If he gets x2 as you, and you get none, then he gets none as well. If you counter even once, contradicts what the tard has been saying all along.

[FailureMidgard]

what you guys say totally contradict the parses of me vs pchan, with same gear except weapons: HS+1 versus destroyers, where the HS+1 monk does 2x more counters than the destroyers one: the dmg difference in the end is exactly the counter damage difference, which is if I recall 3k dmg for at the end of the fight ( 50k dmg total). I had parses where i almost never countered as well.

I'd be interested in seeing said parses, and when I say seeing said parses, I mean the entire parse file, not a snapshot html of the counters alone.

[Kirschy]

what you guys say totally contradict the parses of me vs pchan, with same gear except weapons: HS+1 versus destroyers, where the HS+1 monk does 2x more counters than the destroyers one: the dmg difference in the end is exactly the counter damage difference, which is if I recall 3k dmg for at the end of the fight ( 50k dmg total). I had parses where i almost never countered as well.

I find it difficult to believe that you both engage at the same time, ws at the same time, miss at the same time, use JA at the same time, have the exact same playstyle/player skill etc... There's tons of reasons why hate shouldn't be equal, and why +enmity on a weapon shouldn't dictate who has hate. I'm not saying +enmity doesn't help that player counter, what I am saying is that it's being overstated. It's analogous to having two equal MNKs where one MNK has 10 attack over the other. Yes the MNK with 10 attack has an advantage, but you're not gonna see it, and it's going to be small.

And from my own experience, I did MNK x2 salvage for a while. I had Enmity+ merits over the other MNK and never saw a difference.

[pchan]

I find it difficult to believe that you both engage at the same time, ws at the same time, miss at the same time, use JA at the same time, have the exact same playstyle/player skill etc... There's tons of reasons why hate shouldn't be equal, and why +enmity on a weapon shouldn't dictate who has hate. I'm not saying +enmity doesn't help that player counter, what I am saying is that it's being overstated. It's analogous to having two equal MNKs where one MNK has 10 attack over the other. Yes the MNK with 10 attack has an advantage, but you're not gonna see it, and it's going to be small.

And from my own experience, I did MNK x2 salvage for a while. I had Enmity+ merits over the other MNK and never saw a difference.

There are 3 phases on a boss. First phase is the period where you reach 10,000 CE and 10,000 VE (~ 4 minute depending how serverly you take damage). Second phase is the capped CE+VE phase , where damage generated is enough to counter the -enmity loss from damage taken + VE loss, and the third phase is the last 20% of the boss where he spams his AOE a lot, strips your shadows and do a lot more direct damage.

I checked one of my parse from AR boss, which is the second nastiest after bhaflau unweak. 12k damage taken between melee hits (~ 350 per normal hit with counterstance ) and mortal revolution (up to 800 with CC up and no shadows).



Phase I = I'll base my argument on what I did with my group, where we would have no bard. With haste you generate damage every 3.5 seconds (neglecting counter enmity generation, if any). With a 9 minutes fight, you do 25k damage per 9 minutes or 25000/(9*60)*3.5=162 damage per round. 12k damage taken is 78 damage taken per round.



CE gained per round : 1.538*162
VE gained per round : 4.62*162
CE loss per round on average : 78*1.2
VE loss per round : 60*3.5

Global CE generated per round (3.5 seconds) : 155.55
Global VE generated per round : 538.44

phase I ends after 10000/155.55*3.5=225 seconds or 3 minutes 45 seconds


Phase III is lasting for w/e time it takes you to deal 20% of 50K HP, in this case (0.2*50,000)/(50,000/9)=1.8 minutes or 1 minute 48 sec


Phase II is therefore approximately : 9 min - 3 min 45 - 1 min 48 : 3 min 27 seconds.


During phase I the Hades Sainti +1 is on top of the hate list, caps earlier than the other monk. During 3'45 he is almost the only one countering.

During phase II : both cap and stay on the cap, so since they have the same delay, enmity is somewhat shared. Both counter the same and the damage difference comes from pure dot (~5%)

During phase III : The boss spams it's AOE and there is not much you can do. You can easily lose 500-1k damage with every TP phase, and both monks do, so in this case Hades sainti +1 is staying on top. The slight increase in dot from Shenlong (~5%) doesn't beat just countering once more for instance.



Basically, the Shenlong monk has an advantage of ~5% for 3'27 sec. After that it's all about how many counters you did. With say ~ 10 more counter and 60 per swing average, that's 600 damage. During phase II, if the dot of both monks would be equal, you'd do 9600 damage per monk so Shenlong would have an edge of 5%*9600=480.


Clearly, it depends a how frequently you counter and on you play style (do you cast shadows a lot, or try to counter as much as you can ? ). From experience if you try to take the max out of counter by casting shadows only in yellow HP you always counter a lot more. I had parses where HS+1 countered 17 times and destroyers countered 3 times, that's wtih pizza so destroyers perform better dot.

[FailureMidgard]

You realize 1 monk starting with 100tp say, and the other starting with 30 would mean 1 monk WSes at the start, gets more enmity first, gets a few counters which puts him further ahead, and completely negates any enmity difference on weapon?

And, can we see a parse (again, full parse from kparse, not 1 html file).

[Omnipotent]

@PCHAN, Shenlongs better than Sainti+1?

inb4 you get banned.

[Kinetic]

I'm a 75 SAM with very little zerging experience. For NMs like Kirin, BV2, and DL, would I be better off using Great Katana or Polearm in a zerg? I use a Hagun and an Engetsuto (unmodified), and have 8/8 merits in each. I can post more gear if you need it.

I've heard that Penta Thrust might be better, because accuracy should be capped (?) in a zerg situation and attack will also be very high. If you have any opinions on Archery and /rng being an option, I'd like to hear that as well. Thanks.

[lolwut]

Hagun should run the show on all of those mobs, and should benefit from the buffs despite the inherent attack boost of Y/G/K.

[Kirschy]

There are 3 phases on a boss. First phase is the period where you reach 10,000 CE and 10,000 VE (~ 4 minute depending how serverly you take damage). Second phase is the capped CE+VE phase , where damage generated is enough to counter the -enmity loss from damage taken + VE loss, and the third phase is the last 20% of the boss where he spams his AOE a lot, strips your shadows and do a lot more direct damage.

I checked one of my parse from AR boss, which is the second nastiest after bhaflau unweak. 12k damage taken between melee hits (~ 350 per normal hit with counterstance ) and mortal revolution (up to 800 with CC up and no shadows).



Phase I = I'll base my argument on what I did with my group, where we would have no bard. With haste you generate damage every 3.5 seconds (neglecting counter enmity generation, if any). With a 9 minutes fight, you do 25k damage per 9 minutes or 25000/(9*60)*3.5=162 damage per round. 12k damage taken is 78 damage taken per round.



CE gained per round : 1.538*162
VE gained per round : 4.62*162
CE loss per round on average : 78*1.2
VE loss per round : 60*3.5

Global CE generated per round (3.5 seconds) : 155.55
Global VE generated per round : 538.44

phase I ends after 10000/155.55*3.5=225 seconds or 3 minutes 45 seconds


Phase III is lasting for w/e time it takes you to deal 20% of 50K HP, in this case (0.2*50,000)/(50,000/9)=1.8 minutes or 1 minute 48 sec


Phase II is therefore approximately : 9 min - 3 min 45 - 1 min 48 : 3 min 27 seconds.


During phase I the Hades Sainti +1 is on top of the hate list, caps earlier than the other monk. During 3'45 he is almost the only one countering.

During phase II : both cap and stay on the cap, so since they have the same delay, enmity is somewhat shared. Both counter the same and the damage difference comes from pure dot (~5%)

During phase III : The boss spams it's AOE and there is not much you can do. You can easily lose 500-1k damage with every TP phase, and both monks do, so in this case Hades sainti +1 is staying on top. The slight increase in dot from Shenlong (~5%) doesn't beat just countering once more for instance.



Basically, the Shenlong monk has an advantage of ~5% for 3'27 sec. After that it's all about how many counters you did. With say ~ 10 more counter and 60 per swing average, that's 600 damage. During phase II, if the dot of both monks would be equal, you'd do 9600 damage per monk so Shenlong would have an edge of 5%*9600=480.


Clearly, it depends a how frequently you counter and on you play style (do you cast shadows a lot, or try to counter as much as you can ? ). From experience if you try to take the max out of counter by casting shadows only in yellow HP you always counter a lot more. I had parses where HS+1 countered 17 times and destroyers countered 3 times, that's wtih pizza so destroyers perform better dot.

While the calculations appear to fit the model, your model is far from the truth. Like Failure pointed out you might both start with different TPs. Starting off with a WS changes the hate balance completely. Whoever engages it first starts off /w a CE and VE boost that vastly counteracts the enmity+ on HS. Then you need to take into account that the person with hate is likely to get hit at some point. Getting hit even once again counteracts the enmity+ from weapon. The person with hate is also going to be casting Utsu. Even if they only use Ni, thats still time away from hitting which again, counteracts enmity+. What if the MNK /w the enmity+ hits the lower end of the pdif distribution while the other MNK hits the higher end? While the basics stay the same, the fight does not go the exact same way every time. The enmity+ on HS helps, but again its being exaggerated.

In practice if you take two equal monks, one /w enmity+, and have them parse ~10 chariot fights, you're going to find them close to equal in terms of damage and countering.

Also I'm fairly sure if the math was done out, the enmity created by the extra damage done by 3DMG is about the same as doing less damage /w enmity+9.

[tsaroth816]

Stopped reading at no BRD

[Draylo]

Good dagger combo's with x's knife?

[Cream Soda]

Mandau, Blau dolch, revoke x's knife if don't have one of the two.

[Draylo]

Figured as much.. I dun have either lol I barely use THF outside of soloing/when TH is needed where I used ermines + SK(TK).

[azagarth]

according to veggeto penta will win out at DL, and i believe him.

As for kirin and Bv2 I really do not know. I think on kirin it be fine since hes gets squishy with 6 sv songs, good food, and zerk up.

be worth testing out yourself tbh.

[ronin sparthos]

1. Can anyone comment on the viability of a THF/RNG Culverin zerg? Spare me the 'lol you're only there for TH' and 'Your other DD should be doing better' commentary, im speaking strictly in theory.

2. JPs have claimed that the Kitron Macaron and Coconut Rusk style items act as items that increase crafting skill levels along with lowering break rates. Has anyone done testing on these items?

The one thing I can confirm is that the usage animation is more like an item than food.

[Yugl]

Martial or Kinkobo

Set: http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=136550