What's Better?

[azagarth]

yes its better, even better than HQ shura as proven by veggeto for tping.

however if you have shura id make for a different job.

[dantes]

Why is it better?

[dantes]

Also I'm 4/5 Usukane and just missing 35 body so I'll be doing 5/5 Usu with Usu body and Shura Togi for Asuran Fists obviousely due to lack of crits/no modifiers (unless you guys disagree?). So I wouldn't go with Mirke either way but I'm just curious as I thought it was a clueless statement but maybe I'm wrong.

[Thorny]

Assuming 6 level correction, 550 attack before body, 400 def mob:

550 attack / 400 = 1.375
1.375 - .3 = 1.075
12.5 / 400 = .03125
1.10625 / 1.075 = 1.029 or a 2.9% increase in damage from attack on mirke

22 / 400 = .055
1.13 / 1.075 = 1.051 or a 5.1% increase in damage from attack on togi+1

51.25/50 = 1.025 or 2.5% increase in dmg from fSTR on average(mileage may vary since it'll always be either 1 or 2.. 1 75% of the time).. either 2 or 4% respectively

2.9 * 1.02 = 2.958 + 2 = 4.978% increase in damage per hit when fSTR only increases DMG by 1

2.9 * 1.04 = 3.016 + 4 = 7.016% increase in damage per hit when fSTR increases DMG by 2

1.5 acc = .75% hitrate, in the 90s this is about a 0.8% increase in hits landed and WS damage if acc is uncapped

5 DEX = not calculable

If fSTR increases DMG by 1 and accuracy is uncapped, Mirke will win by 0.678% melee damage and 0.8% WS damage from extra tp.

If fSTR increases DMG by 2 and accuracy is uncapped, Mirke will win by 1.92% melee damage and 0.8% WS damage from extra tp.

If fSTR increases DMG by 1 and accuracy is capped, Togi+1 wins by 0.122% melee damage barring critical hits. A crit in this case gives 88.4% increase in damage for that hit only. Simple multiplication reveals that the 5 DEX needs to give you 0.13% critical hit rate for Mirke to win.

If fSTR increases DMG by 2 and accuracy is capped, Mirke will win by 1.984% melee damage.

I would say that there is no reasonable place where Togi+1 will outdo Mirke, as to have attack low enough to increase togi's value would lower your accuracy below cap in all likelihood.

copy/paste from my original PM to vegetto when he asked about it

[dantes]

I would assume we are only talking TP? Asuran Fists would still use Shura Togi?

[Thorny]

I would assume we are only talking TP? Asuran Fists would still use Shura Togi?

STR+5 DEX+5 > 10 attack on asuran too if fstr is uncapped

[azagarth]

so I have a dilemma lol....

I have Blu, Sch and soon to be Nin 75. I need to figure out what to merit and see if can get some input.

I don't seem to use blu ever outside of soloing and cannonball but I am told I should go 8/8 here. I don't know what to expect dmg wise for an increase from this, but if its not hugely noticeable I would rather slap the merits into a diff job. I do like blu a lot though but if its not going to really make an impact it would probably be best elsewhere.

I just got my sch 75 and so havent really go to solo anything hard on it or whatnot. I do know though that I want to merit ele skill 8/8 for sure just because I plan use it to nuke at endgame. i think ele merits are pretty strait forward a must on sch. However I know enfeebling is important too, but if I go 8/8 then i cant do blu... how much of an importance are these for sch? idk but it seems that most stuff sch solo that a resist would be a big deal they go /nin anyhow and just gaiters kite.

My last job of concern is my soon to be Nin. I am lving this job purely for solo's dont plan to be tanking anything in events. However the solos i want to do will be on the difficult side (bune, charby, etc) and I am not sure how effects or needed merits will on these types of mobs, or if they will be floored resist anyhow? I also heard that ninjitsu skill can help reduce interutpts which could come in handy. How effective or large of an improvement are merits for nin?

SO i guess what it boils down to since im already for sure doing 8/8 ele skill, would blu magic, ninjitsu or enfebling merits make the biggest impact for their jobs?

[Scritch]

DNC Daggers:

Azoth/Behemoth+1 is what I've currently got. I want to know how serviceable this is... did I fuck up buying the Azoth and should I sell it for something else? Would Papilo Kiripan, Cinquedea, Sleight Kukri be worth camping? Should I be off-handing a Jambiya until I can get one of those?

I'm really just uncertain of the relative levels of importance DMG, Delay, Attack, and Accuracy have for DNC.

This would be mostly for 'DD' or solo, things where I'm mostly there for Haste Samba or Box Step. I rarely see myself in the need to full on heal a party.

[pchan]

Assuming 6 level correction, 550 attack before body, 400 def mob:

550 attack / 400 = 1.375
1.375 - .3 = 1.075
12.5 / 400 = .03125
1.10625 / 1.075 = 1.029 or a 2.9% increase in damage from attack on mirke

22 / 400 = .055
1.13 / 1.075 = 1.051 or a 5.1% increase in damage from attack on togi+1

51.25/50 = 1.025 or 2.5% increase in dmg from fSTR on average(mileage may vary since it'll always be either 1 or 2.. 1 75% of the time).. either 2 or 4% respectively

2.9 * 1.02 = 2.958 + 2 = 4.978% increase in damage per hit when fSTR only increases DMG by 1

2.9 * 1.04 = 3.016 + 4 = 7.016% increase in damage per hit when fSTR increases DMG by 2

1.5 acc = .75% hitrate, in the 90s this is about a 0.8% increase in hits landed and WS damage if acc is uncapped

5 DEX = not calculable

If fSTR increases DMG by 1 and accuracy is uncapped, Mirke will win by 0.678% melee damage and 0.8% WS damage from extra tp.

If fSTR increases DMG by 2 and accuracy is uncapped, Mirke will win by 1.92% melee damage and 0.8% WS damage from extra tp.

If fSTR increases DMG by 1 and accuracy is capped, Togi+1 wins by 0.122% melee damage barring critical hits. A crit in this case gives 88.4% increase in damage for that hit only. Simple multiplication reveals that the 5 DEX needs to give you 0.13% critical hit rate for Mirke to win.

If fSTR increases DMG by 2 and accuracy is capped, Mirke will win by 1.984% melee damage.

I would say that there is no reasonable place where Togi+1 will outdo Mirke, as to have attack low enough to increase togi's value would lower your accuracy below cap in all likelihood.

copy/paste from my original PM to vegetto when he asked about it

practical situation :

merits@bird str is capped at 103, str on mirke is overkill, either that or ha has to use sushi since no usu...

merits@MMJ acc is capped, because it should, pizza or sushi ar ebest for any job, and he probably uses sushi if no usu.

=> shura togi, except asuran fists maybe, but then pdif is probably capped and osode is better anyway.

I would only consider mirke vs shura for asuran.

[mdkuser]

Entertain me on this. Mirke ATK+10/ACC+10 augments. Is it better than Shura?

I'm in the obvious Shura camp but this clueless MNK keeps on telling me someone parsed it as being better I just want to prove him wrong. He also made the statement "mirke is a side grade to usukane body also".

I don't logistically see how 5str 5dex is better than +10atk for a heavy DOT job. Assuming you hit the proper caps that is.

For MNK that is...

main reason for mirke is it has more acc; if you are acc caped it is not so great, and like pchan said, it's easy to be STR caped as monk too ( although you will never be STR caped on MMjs for expl. unless elvaan + full usu maybe). So basically its situational imo. Always thought togi would be always better than mirke during asuran due to boost and the low STR WSC.

[Thorny]

merits@bird str is capped at 103, str on mirke is overkill, either that or ha has to use sushi since no usu...

Mix&match doesn't cap fSTR in most setups*1, and it only needs the fSTR to beat togi in high pdif situations. Additionally, a good mix&match set is approaching the point where more DEX has an impact on critrate*2

merits@MMJ acc is capped, because it should, pizza or sushi ar ebest for any job, and he probably uses sushi if no usu.

That's awesome. Just like I mentioned earlier in that math, you don't need to make use of the accuracy for Mirke to win. At mamools, you don't cap fSTR, so clearly the discussion is about birds only.

asuran fists maybe, but then pdif is probably capped and osode is better anyway.

For asuran, mirke is better than shura, but osode is indeed better than both if stats are high enough.

*1: Example setup, not calculating acc, but adds as much STR as is possible(and may even still come short on acc)
Destroyers/Btath
Walahra/Faith/Brutal/Minuet
???/Enkidu's Mittens/Rajas/Toreador
Cerb+1/Black Belt/Byakko's/Fuma
Crab Sushi

+21 STR, an elvaan mnk/war with 75 base hits 96. With full merits, you hit 101. You still gain a fSTR from the Mirke. If you're an elvaan with max STR and can cap accuracy while TPing in that gear + flame ring or kubira beads, maybe togi will win.. but I'm pretty sure that will drop accuracy below cap, at least when focus is down.

*2: Using same example setup, but replacing enkidu's mittens with hachiryu kote, cerb+1 with cuch, toreador with thunder, faith with kubira beads
67 base dex + 15 byakkos = 82 + 10 hachiryu = 92 + 5 rajas = 97 + 2 min/tath = 99 + 4 = 103 + 5 = 108 +4 = 112 + 5(mirke) = 117, or ddex cap on birds

If you're any other race, this is hit earlier. Overall change is:
Enkidu -> Hachiryu = +3 acc -4 str
Cerb+1 -> Cuch = -15 attack +5 acc
Tor -> thunder = -4.5 acc
Faith -> Kubira Beads = +4 str -5 acc -7 attack
Togi -> Mirke = +5 str +5 dex -10 attack

net change of -1.5 acc -32 attack for 10% critrate and 1 fstr

obviously where accuracy cap is is dependant on merits and buffs, but both mix&match setups use sushi anyway

point being, very very difficult to cap fSTR without usukane body or sacrificing large amounts of accuracy.. the fact they're questioning what body piece means no usu body means no full usu

[pchan]

conclusion : eat sushi and TP&WS with osode.

togi/mirke/osode give zero% hitrate

osode gives 1% crit, 5 attack, 2.5 fstr
mirke gives 0% crit, 7.5 att 1.25 fstr
togi gives 20 attack

with normal buff and debuff you get 0.25% damage for 1 attack and 1.6% dmg per 1 fstr

osode : (1+5*0.25/100)*(1+2.5*1.6/100)=+5.3% and 1% crit so about 6.3%
mirke : (1+7.5*0.25/100)*(1+1.25*1.6/100) so about 3.9%
togi : (1+20*0.25/100)=5%
togi +1 : 5.5%

osode>togi+1>togi>mirke with sushi on mmj or birds.


even if you use "on average argument" for crit%, which can't be correct at birds, 5 dex will give 0.5% crit on average and still doesn't beat osode.

[Thorny]

coclusion : eat sushi and TP&WS with osode.

togi/mirke/osode give zero% hitrate

osode gives 1% crit, 5 attack, 2.5 fstr
mirke gives 0% crit, 7.5 att 1.25 fstr
togi gives 20 attack

with normal buff and debuff you get 0.25% damage for 1 attack and 1.6% dmg per 1 fstr

osode : (1+5*0.25/100)*(1+2.5*1.6/100)=+5.3% and 1% crit so about 6.3%
mirke : (1+5.5*0.25/100)*(1+1.25*1.6/100) so about 3.4%
togi : (1+20*0.25/100)=5%

osode>togi>mirke with sushi on mmj or birds

How, pray tell, can you say that mirke gives 0% crit while saying osode gives 1%? How does mirke give 5.5 attack, while togi gives 20? If you did comparatives, mirke would be 7.5 and togi would be 15 vs osode. Did you look at my alternative setup either? Even elvaan can hit DEX cap on lolibri.. and that aside, if you're recommending osode over mirke(5 str 5 dex for 7.5 attack), you damn well better be using kubira beads as well(4 str 4 dex for 5 attack.. clearly a better trade). Sushi doesn't guarantee capped hitrate regardless of everything, and beads+mirke is a much better option than osode + faith(9 str 9 dex 10 att 10 acc vs 10 str 10 dex 7 acc 7 att)

togi/mirke/osode give zero% hitrate

osode gives 1% crit, 5 attack, 2.5 fstr
mirke gives 0% crit, 7.5 att 1.25 fstr
togi gives 20 attack

with normal buff and debuff you get 0.25% damage for 1 attack and 1.6% dmg per 1 fstr

osode : (1+5*0.25/100)*(1+2.5*1.6/100)=+5.3% and 1% crit so about 6.3%
mirke : (1+7.5*0.25/100)*(1+1.25*1.6/100) so about 3.9%
togi : (1+20*0.25/100)=5%
togi +1 : 5.5%

You're still giving togi a full 20 attack while reducing mirkes to a comparison to osode, what? You'll get it right eventually, I suppose.

even if you use "on average argument" for crit%, which can't be correct at birds, 5 dex will give 0.5% crit on average and still doesn't beat osode.

Oh come on, you know basic statistics. Go about proving to me that your crit rate has to be an exact percentage on SE's servers please, I'll be waiting.

Seriously, stop clinging to your arguments when you've been clearly beaten.

[pchan]

How, pray tell, can you say that mirke gives 0% crit while saying osode gives 1%? How does mirke give 5.5 attack, while togi gives 20? If you did comparatives, mirke would be 7.5 and togi would be 15 vs osode. Did you look at my alternative setup either? Even elvaan can hit DEX cap on lolibri.. and that aside, if you're recommending osode over mirke(5 str 5 dex for 7.5 attack), you damn well better be using kubira beads as well(4 str 4 dex for 5 attack.. clearly a better trade).


You're still giving togi a full 20 attack while reducing mirkes to a comparison to osode, what? You'll get it right eventually, I suppose.

Seriously, stop clinging to your arguments when you've been clearly beaten.

i corrected to 7.5 attack for mirke.

crit% increases every 11 dex only, 5 dex is giving either 0 or 1 and 10-11 dex is guarranted 1%.

Even elvaan can hit DEX cap on lolibri.. and that aside, if you're recommending osode over mirke(5 str 5 dex for 7.5 attack), you damn well better be using kubira beads as well(4 str 4 dex for 5 attack.. clearly a better trade).

mnk can't use kubira for one, secondly

BT, rajas, byakko, mirke and hachiryu is only +26 dex, 67+26=93 dex, idk how you you are getting 117 dex. I mean, even with hollow(2) A torque(4) and cuchu (4) you are only at +36 dex so pretty far, still. You would be able to cap with sole sushi+1, and osode, maybe, but at decent cost of attack (22 on hands, 15 on back, 6 on earring : 43 total, so 10% damage which is equivalent to 10% crit or a bit better even..), and in this case anyway you need osode.

[Thorny]

i corrected to 7.5 attack for mirke.

That's nice. You're giving mirke 7.5 attack because osode has 5, but you gave togi 20. You either need to give mirke 12.5, or togi 15 for it to be a fair comparison. Are you this thick?

crit% increases every 11 dex only, 5 dex is giving either 0 or 1 and 10-11 dex is guarranted 1%.

Have fun proving that with any reliability. Again, you know basic statistics so I'm going to assume you just don't want to admit you're wrong.

mnk can't use kubira for one, secondly

Fair enough, thought it was all jobs.

BT, rajas, byakko, mirke and hachiryu is only +26 dex, 67+26=93 dex, idk how you you are getting 117 dex.

1 + 5 + 15 + 5 + 10 = 26. Really? Last I checked, it was 36.

I mean, even with hollow(2) A torque(4) and cuchu (4) you are only at +36 dex so pretty far, still. You would be able to cap with sole sushi+1, and osode, maybe, but at decent cost of attack (22 on hands, 15 on back, 6 on earring : 43 total, do 10% damage which is equivalent to 10 crit), and in this case anyway you need osode.

Hollow, A.Torque, Cuch = an additional 10, thunder ring makes 15 for cap. As stated earlier(corrected neck):

If you're any other race or have DEX merits, this is hit earlier. Overall change is:
Enkidu -> Hachiryu = +3 acc -4 str -2 attack +6 dex
Cerb+1 -> Cuch = -15 attack +5 acc +4 dex
Tor -> thunder = -4.5 acc +5 dex
Faith -> Kubira Beads(replace with a.torque because i'm a moron) = +4 acc -7 attack +4 dex
Togi -> Mirke = +5 str +5 dex -7.5 attack +2.5 acc

net change of +3 acc -31.5 attack for ~10% critrate(+24 DEX, but pushes you to DDEX thresshold)

Now, I'm not asking for a miracle. We can start with baby steps, admit that 1 + 5 + 15 + 5 + 10 = 36, and not 26. From there, we'll work on how mirke is comparative attack and togi isn't. Eventually, we might even get you to realize you were wrong!

[TheTaru]

Eventually, we might even get you to realize you were wrong!

I love you so much, it's ridiculizing.

[pchan]

Have fun proving that with any reliability. Again, you know basic statistics so I'm going to assume you just don't want to admit you're wrong.

It has been proven in the crit thread, bro.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...%28dDEX%29.jpg

The first 39 dex give 4% crit.

That's nice. You're giving mirke 7.5 attack because osode has 5, but you gave togi 20. You either need to give mirke 12.5, or togi 15 for it to be a fair comparison. Are you this thick?

Ok I messed with the attack value on mirke but it doesn't change the fact that osode is ahead

Togi : 20 attack 20*0.25 = > +5%
Osode : 5 att 2.5 fstr 1% crit : (1+5*0.25/100)*(1+2.5*1.6/100)=+5.3% and 1% crit
mirke : 12.5 attack 1.25 fstr 0% crit : 5.187%

This is what will happen in a low dex build, in high dex build obviously osode wins out.

Hollow, A.Torque, Cuch = an additional 10, thunder ring makes 15 for cap. As stated earlier(corrected neck):

If you're any other race or have DEX merits, this is hit earlier. Overall change is:
Enkidu -> Hachiryu = +3 acc -4 str -2 attack +6 dex
Cerb+1 -> Cuch = -15 attack +5 acc +4 dex
Tor -> thunder = -4.5 acc +5 dex
Faith -> Kubira Beads(replace with a.torque because i'm a moron) = +4 acc -7 attack +4 dex
Togi -> Mirke = +5 str +5 dex -7.5 attack +2.5 acc

net change of +3 acc -31.5 attack for ~10% critrate(+24 DEX, but pushes you to DDEX thresshold)

Just no. I already said you should use sushi, any accuracy is irrelevant. You should TP with bandomusha kote and cerb +1. As a result, what you find to be a trade of 31.5 attack for 10% crit is actually

earring : -6 attack for 2 dex
ring : 5 dex
hands : -22 attack for 10 dex
back : -15 attack for 5 dex

I count -43 attack for 22 dex. Crit% make you cool on a parse it doesn't make you do more damage than 43 attack, which is equivalent to 43*0.25=10.75% dot up.




My setup has +31 dex since I'd use osode,byakko,rajas and BT (assumimng no sole sushi+1), which puts me at 13% crit according to the above chart. Your setup with mirke is putting you at dDEX cap or 24% crit. Assuming 1% crit is worth 1.9 x normal hit (it's probably less with dia III and chaos roll...), the dot increase is therefore :

(76+24*1.9)/(87+13*1.9)=1.0886 =+8.86%

Congratulation, you spent 7M on A. torque, 5M on cuchulain mantle, so about 12M, for a set up that does less damage than ... Osode which costs less than 2M. Suck less.



edit : in case an idiot calls bullshit on my capped accuracy assertion,

Hades+BT
Turban+faith+brutal+merman's
osode+bando+toreador's+rajas
cerb+1+BB+byakko+usu

is exactly at capped accuracy with crab suhi. If you are mad when you see hades sainti, use Faith and eat sole sushi. Same effect. If you are mad because you see destroyers, adapt, the benefits of 13+6% crit > 24+6% crit is only
(70+30*1.9)/(81+19*1.9)=1.0845=>+8.45%, so worse.

[Shinryuu]

Accuracy is not irrelevant when there's a situation where pizza's 55 attack beats some extra hitrate sushi might give, depending of course on every relevant stat and the mob.

Edit: this is on Mamool or so. You mentioned using sushi and not pizza there.

[pchan]

You are wrong, there is no reason to merit without capped accuracy. The reason you'd want to use pizza is because you only need 40 acc to cap, not because x att beats y accuracy.

[Tulun]

So, the final verdict on Paladin merits is; depends on what I want more, a hate reset tool, an anti enfeeb tool...

but Chivarly is definitely worth the 5/5?