What's Better?

[Wolfknight]

Pachi is only worthwhile when you have a very strong 5 hit, which I think means you need usu body and feets, and maybe rose strap depending on what you WS in.

Wrong. Even with 5-hit from Usukane body/feet or rose strap it's still a garbage overpriced gkt, the delay/-acc, and haste lost put it below onimaru from math on KI, much less hagun.

[vivix]

What are you using THF for? If you don't need TH and you have money you can get a m.kris and spam WSs happily

Outside of TH stuff, I suppose its meriting (lol) and other random shit.

[pchan]

Wrong. Even with 5-hit from Usukane body/feet or rose strap it's still a garbage overpriced gkt, the delay/-acc, and haste lost put it below onimaru from math on KI, much less hagun.

1) acc should always be capped
2) where do you lose haste ?
3) lol KI, read a few page, it's .. interesting.

[Wolfknight]

1) acc should always be capped
2) where do you lose haste ?
3) lol KI, read a few page, it's .. interesting.

1. We can pretend it is but reality doesn't work that way.
2. Atleast Dusks gloves > Hachiman kote since the person doesn't have usukane gear.
3. Ya well his math for it works, and I am too lazy to copy the wall of text.

[pchan]

1. We can pretend it is but reality doesn't work that way.
2. Atleast Dusks gloves > Hachiman kote since the person doesn't have usukane gear.
3. Ya well his math for it works, and I am too lazy to copy the wall of text.

There is not need to drop haste for pachi beside dusk ledelsens+1 > usukane sune ate or fuma > usukane sune-ate.

[Shinryuu]

Well back in the day when ridill wars were supreme i really enjoyed my suppa, but now with GA raining the victor and ninja just being lol... i'm hoping to request bushi soon... cuch i can look into because to be completely honest with you it just never really occured to me.

edit; The real reason i'm asking is because i saw a pachi in jeuno for 1.4m, and i'm thinking of snagging it.

If you're dropping suppanomimi while in posession of ridill, joyeuse and WAR75 you're amazingly hopeless. Hell, even if I misunderstood you I wouldn't toss suppa with just WAR75 unless you have a pimped MNK. Listen to Cream Soda, he's offering sound advice. Get the Cuchulain's, sell the garbage mantle +1 for roughly 8M more than it's really worth, and buy an icecream.

There are two things that can situationally beat a 6-hit hagun for SAM. 5-hit Rindo and 5-hit Hagun. Pachipachio is neither.

[requim]

Pachi requires full merits and a minimum of 19 STP to get 20 TP per hit, which can be gained from usukane body/feet, rajas, and brutal. Though you would have to tweak your WS gear or use rose strap to TP in order to keep that.

If you don't have usukane you need sacrifice either haub+1 for askar body or dusk gloves (+1) for hachi gloves. Both are terrible decisions.

If you had full merits and usukane body/feet you can 408 accuracy (tipiha / ace's / pcc / bushi / tors / rajas / haidate). If you lacked any of that gear/merits you would have below 95% accuracy on birds. You would also need a bit more to cap accuracy on non-birds with very little room to improve accuracy (black tath, cuch, ancient torque, mars).

I think Wolfknight was just responding specifically to the OP who did not meet the gear requirements to even consider pachi (as far as his FFXIAH profile / he said).

Pachi requires specific gear and looks like it only works in a limited amount of situations, which when it does awesome sauce, but success does not come from saccing large amounts of accuracy or haste.

[Wolfknight]

If you're dropping suppanomimi while in posession of ridill, joyeuse and WAR75 you're amazingly hopeless. Hell, even if I misunderstood you I wouldn't toss suppa with just WAR75 unless you have a pimped MNK. Listen to Cream Soda, he's offering sound advice. Get the Cuchulain's, sell the garbage mantle +1 for roughly 8M more than it's really worth, and buy an icecream.

There are two things that can situationally beat a 6-hit hagun for SAM. 5-hit Rindo and 5-hit Hagun. Pachipachio is neither.

he should really just drop the ethereal for hollow <_<, cause drg is the only reason I keep it, it's too small on pld to take over hollow, and keep suppa to use it +hollow for war, and pld. And Definitely get Cuch mantle.

Also I'd argue for Futsuno 5-hit could probably beat 6-hit Hagun, but LOLAV drop.

[requim]

I thought all Rindo builds were pretty mediocre and just a poor man's hagun altnerative?

Ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to maintain a Rindo 5-hit without dropping haste, won't Hagun be doing 25-29% more damage per WS?

So in Rindo's bestest situation it's doing 5 WS at 1*X damage while Hagun is doing 4 WS at 1.25*X damage. The benefit being that Rindo matches up to meditate, though it would require 16STP Rindo, Rose Strap, Brutal, Usu Body, Rajas, and Usu Feet to consider since anything else requires you to make unnecessary haste sacrifices, which would put Rindo behind Hagun.

Saying it situationally compares seems a bit misleading. Almost break even sure, but it still seems generally inferior unless you have like the bestest possible Rindo and all other necessary gear. At least Fusuno and Pachi have a decent increase in damage compared to Hagun.

[Cream Soda]

I thought all Rindo builds were pretty mediocre and just a poor man's hagun altnerative?

Ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to maintain a Rindo 5-hit without dropping haste, won't Hagun be doing 25-29% more damage per WS?

So in Rindo's bestest situation it's doing 5 WS at 1*X damage while Hagun is doing 4 WS at 1.25*X damage. The benefit being that Rindo matches up to meditate, though it would require 16STP Rindo, Rose Strap, Brutal, Usu Body, Rajas, and Usu Feet to consider since anything else requires you to make unnecessary haste sacrifices, which would put Rindo behind Hagun.

Saying it situationally compares seems a bit misleading. Almost break even sure, but it still seems generally inferior unless you have like the bestest possible Rindo and all other necessary gear. At least Fusuno and Pachi have a decent increase in damage compared to Hagun.

5hit rindo w/ some ws DMG+% augments will beat out a pachi every time, if you're comparing 5 hit vs hagun's 6hit, should always be rindo and never pachi.

[requim]

5hit rindo w/ some ws DMG+% augments will beat out a pachi every time, if you're comparing 5 hit vs hagun's 6hit, should always be rindo and never pachi.

But even with DMG+% isn't it still doing like 80% of Hagun's damage? Then if you're having to sacrifice haste when you're in the upper 70's that ends up taking out a huge chunk of any benefit to a 5 hit doesn't it?

[Cream Soda]

Not rly sure on the math vs hagun, I'm just saying vs pachi it'll win. The lower delay and possible +% dmg makes up for the higher base dmg.

[Amastacia]

I think the big problem with Pachi/Rindo 5 hit builds is polearm.

To be blunt, most of the times using a GKT is better than using a polearm, it is less necessary (though generally still useful and impactful) to play at absolute peak efficiency, and every time TP is not used precisely at 100%, Hagun is given a relative advantage.

[requim]

To be blunt

lol as you reference piercing vs slashing.

[eormanric]

If you're dropping suppanomimi while in posession of ridill, joyeuse and WAR75 you're amazingly hopeless. Hell, even if I misunderstood you I wouldn't toss suppa with just WAR75 unless you have a pimped MNK. Listen to Cream Soda, he's offering sound advice. Get the Cuchulain's, sell the garbage mantle +1 for roughly 8M more than it's really worth, and buy an icecream.

There are two things that can situationally beat a 6-hit hagun for SAM. 5-hit Rindo and 5-hit Hagun. Pachipachio is neither.

My mnk is good, black belt, usu feet/hands faith etc... i need to update my ffxiah really badly because i use usu feet/haub+1 on my sam these days. Yea i'm in the posession of a ridill, joy and my wars 75 with ebody etc but ridill and joytoy are fucking stupid compared to GA in my opinion.... unless i'm in a merit party? who merits? lol

edit: i do thank everyone for input and advice, it's nice to have opinions.

[Cream Soda]

More of a random question, but more math gets done here than in that thread, so I'll post here.

Was comparing possible dagger combos(for dnc) for myself and came up w/ this and was wondering if anyone could double check my math and confirm my conclusion or come up w/ a better one (w/ DD dnc in mind)

34(194) + 25 (156) = 59(350) (A Jambiya+1/Cinquedea
35(210) + 34 (194) = 69(404) (B Azoth/Jambiya+1
35(210) + 25 (156) = 60(366) (C Azoth/Cinquedea
34(194) + 34 (194) = 68(388 ) (D Jambiya+1/Jambiya+1


A
59/69 = 85.50725% of the damage B
59/60 = 98.333333333% of the damage of C
59/68 = 86.76470588% of the dmage of D

1/(350/404) = 15.4285714% increase to B
1/(350/366) = 4.5714286% increase to C
1/(350/388 ) = 10.8571429% increase to D

.8550724638 x 1.154284714 = 98.6997% of the damage of B (99.82998% w/ 5 fstr)
.9833333333 x 1.045714286 = 2.82857% incease in damage to C (2.96264% w/ 5 Fstr)
.8676470588 x 1.108571429 = 96.1849% of the damage of D (97.18982% w/ 5 fstr)

A loses to B and D w/o even considering their higher TP/hit

B and D both beat C, since C lost to A

Time to compare B and D more closely.

B gains 5.1 tp/hit w/ /nin and rajas + brutal (20 hits for 100 tp)
D gains 5.0 tp/hit w/ /nin and rajas + brutal (20 hits for 100 tp)

No change in ws frequency

B
B will add 2% hitrate, assuming 85% hitrate,
2/85 = 2.352941176% increase to D

69/68 = 1.4705882% increase or 1.369863% incrase w/ 5 fstr to D

1/(404/388 ) = 96.03960396% as fast as D

1.02352941176 x 1.014705882 x .9603960396 = .9974493813% of the damage of D (less once account for fstr)

D wins


Just thought of Papilio Kirpan, so will compare D to a couple builds of that.

34(194) + 34 (194) = 68(388 ) (D Jambiya+1/Jambiya+1
35(201)+ 34(194) = 69 (395) (E Papilio/Jambiya+1 (also 20 hits to 100tp)
35(201 + 35(210) = 70 (411) (F Papilio/Azoth (also 20 hits to 100tp)
35(201)+ 25(156) = 60 (357) (G Papilio/Cinquedea

D
68/69 = 98.55072464% of the damage of E (98.64864865% of the damage w/ 5fstr)
68/70 = 97.14285714% of the damage of F (97.33333333% of the damage w/ 5 str)
68/60 = 13.33333333% increase dmg to G (12.3076923% increase w/ 5str)

for F only, assuming 85% hitrate again and adding 4 acc (2% hirate)
2/85 = 2.352941176% increase to D, 100/102.352941176 = 97.70114943% of the damage of F

1/(388/395) = 1.8041237% increase to E
1/(388/411) = 5.9278351% increase to F
1/(388/357) = 92.0130928% as fast as G

.9855072465 x 1.018041237 = 1.003287016% increase to E
.9770114943 x .9714285714 x 1.059278351 = 1.005357778% increase to F
1.1333333333 x .920130928 = 4.2815052% increase to G (and this is before accounting for xhit)

D wins

So, Excluding Adder Jambiya+1, I've concluded my best dagger combo would be Jambiya+1 x2 (or Etail/Jambiya+1 if I ever decide to try for that).

If, for some reason, I decide to change from bushi to suppa (and prolly not since dnc is my only DW job), D goes to 21 hits, while E and F retain 20 hits for 100 tp. D is less of an increase to E than it is F, which would make Papilio/Jambiya+1 the new rank number 1.

[tsaroth816]

Ok wait. We're back to liking Cuch mantle now? It was ignore/hate when it came out, then loved it omg uber. Then hated it again because att is the new acc (when capping with pizza etc). Now we are back to love Cuch mantle? The guy has SAM75 and you are telling him to sell Cerb+1 and use a Cuch? I'm misunderstanding?

Well then, my question is this: When should you use Cuch mantle over Cerb+1? Not looking for too specific, let's say on MNK, SAM, WAR, THF, and DRK. Something like MNK: Focus down. SAM: Never. WAR: only during RR. THF: fulltime unless Mandau. DRK: Never. ??

[Cream Soda]

Ok wait. We're back to liking Cuch mantle now? It was ignore/hate when it came out, then loved it omg uber. Then hated it again because att is the new acc (when capping with pizza etc). Now we are back to love Cuch mantle? The guy has SAM75 and you are telling him to sell Cerb+1 and use a Cuch? I'm misunderstanding?

Well then, my question is this: When should you use Cuch mantle over Cerb+1? Not looking for too specific, let's say on MNK, SAM, WAR, THF, and DRK. Something like MNK: Focus down. SAM: Never. WAR: only during RR. THF: fulltime unless Mandau. DRK: Never. ??

Well when he's using ace's helm >.>
gain 1 haste swap to turban and lose no acc by swapping to cuch

[Argettio]

Ok wait. We're back to liking Cuch mantle now? It was ignore/hate when it came out, then loved it omg uber. Then hated it again because att is the new acc (when capping with pizza etc). Now we are back to love Cuch mantle? The guy has SAM75 and you are telling him to sell Cerb+1 and use a Cuch? I'm misunderstanding?

Well then, my question is this: When should you use Cuch mantle over Cerb+1? Not looking for too specific, let's say on MNK, SAM, WAR, THF, and DRK. Something like MNK: Focus down. SAM: Never. WAR: only during RR. THF: fulltime unless Mandau. DRK: Never. ??

Pizza is good, but it won't cap you on every mob.

A 2 handed DD will TP in ~ 400 acc, so 440(ish) with pizza... That's not enough for quite a few mobs that you will run into at times, and on those mobs it should be used when Diabolic eye/aggressor is down (or full time if you are a job with not acc JA [SAM and DRG]).

And obviously 1 handed DDs are 20-30 acc behind a 2 handers, so the list of mobs that pizza isn't enough is a lot longer.

Cuch mantle gives you more acc without dropping haste, that's what makes it attractive.

[mdkuser]

If you're dropping suppanomimi while in posession of ridill, joyeuse and WAR75 you're amazingly hopeless. Hell, even if I misunderstood you I wouldn't toss suppa with just WAR75 unless you have a pimped MNK. Listen to Cream Soda, he's offering sound advice. Get the Cuchulain's, sell the garbage mantle +1 for roughly 8M more than it's really worth, and buy an icecream.

There are two things that can situationally beat a 6-hit hagun for SAM. 5-hit Rindo and 5-hit Hagun. Pachipachio is neither.

you're actually mistaken. 5-hit pachipachio can beat hagun under caped accuracy. Rindomaru is always better if you have a rose strap though. A great katana just needs dmg 82 delay 480 to beat hagun, the maths behind is straightforward, and its not even hard to understand when you consider it's the same delay/dmg as polearms ( that have an added effect: -50 attack, -50 accuracy, +25% piercing).

To be more precise, for capped accuracy, pachipachio with pole grip, usu body , usu feet, beats a sword strap hagun set up, by ~1%ish, but then again pole grip hagun ( usu body, fumas pole grip) beats it slightly (<1%). For uncaped acc it's different but I don't care, pizza and sushi exist, I always cap;

I've looked that thread about the maths behind where they found pachi is worse than onimaru; the 5-hit builds they were using were mediocre and they calculated for uncaped accuracy. It's not really hard to make up for the -6 acc with a cuchu mantle say.