Big Bomb solo

[Blasta]

Anymore brain busters (Excluding Rizzuto)?

Yeah you gotta stop solving problems, you see that makes me productive at work which i dont want to be.

[pchan]

Look at the finesse in those videos! And the accuracy in which he presses his macros and responds to a completely unpredictable situation to arrive at the defeat of his treacherous foe! How amazing is he?! The perfection is undeniable.

Just look at that divine, luscious, multitasking ability. God it makes me so hot.

You sound like a moron seeking for attention because you can solo NMs that have already been soloed plenty of times. Noone cares, avesta was the first, and that's the only thing that matters.

Do you remember the name of the 7th LS that beat PW and do you see them brag about how the first LS sucks because they kill so much faster or their strategy is better because they use less people ? No.

Congrats on soloing better than avesta_2006, on a NM that is nothing but a waste of time. Fire bomblet 1m, ding.

[S N K]

Anyone who plays on pc and says they don't use windower is either a) lying, or b) gimp.

On that same token, if you don't blink, then you my friend are gimp.

Don't come in here saying you don't use windower, because that's like any serious endgame shell claiming they don't bot -- it's pointless, because everyone knows it's not true.

Actually I'm probably one of the very few PC users left who don't use Windower.

I also do blink, a lot.

[isladar]

Do NOT turn this into another goddamn thread about Windower. I will lock and I will ban, in no particular order.

[Taruking]

And here I was thinking Avesta cocksucking died out in '06. Seriously, the "he makes it look so effortless" thing is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard. He's not a fucking interpretive dancer.

This statement is funny, By your definition all tanks are the same as long as they can outlive the target mobs. There are more players who worship celebrity tanks on BG than any other forums.

I didn't praise Avesta's "effortless" solo attempts for their aesthetic values. It takes a lot of skill, good hand eye coordiation, quick reflexes and calm nerve to demonstrate such level of control, which means he is less likely to make major mistakes and more likely to survive shitty conditions (adds, nasty TP moves etc). Get Avesta and one of the RDMs who have soloed Suzy to pop 20 Suzaku, who do you think is likely to end up with more wins?

P/S: edit out windower part >.>;

[drwaffles]

There are more players who worship celebrity tanks on BG than any other forums.

Right, and guess what? They're complete morons too.

It takes a lot of skill, good hand eye coordiation, quick reflexes and calm nerve to demonstrate such level of control, which means he is less likely to make major mistakes and more likely to survive shitty conditions (adds, nasty TP moves etc).

Yet again you're just spewing out completely subjective drivel based on the fact that you like the way his videos look. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole reason you believe this is because his videos are all sped up and he scrolls through his macros with a controller. Please describe exactly what you mean by "level of control", because until you provide me with a legitimate observation proving that Avesta is in any way superior to other intelligent soloists I'm going to continue to assert that you're just a fanboy.

Get Avesta and one of the RDMs who have soloed Suzy to pop 20 Suzaku, who do you think is likely to end up with more wins?

It depends on the RDM, obviously, but I imagine the people I know who are capable of doing it would probably come out ahead. Suzaku isn't even horrifically difficult, just horrifically long. Although that said I personally know two people who have killed it faster than Avesta did. This is a stupid measure of someone's solo ability anyway - if you're able to solo Suzaku it is assumed that you're not going to die due to a stupid mistake, which means the only real way to wipe is due to bad luck. At this point ranking should be based on the speed and efficiency with which one solos something, and Avesta loses quite frequently in that department.

I only started using windower after TAU release, and immediately saw a huge improvement in my solo performance. That's why I have more respect for Avesta's skill.

I know we've been told not to continue the Windower debate, but I'll just say that it's stupid to give someone more credit for doing something other people are able to do just because they gimp themselves. This harks back to the idiocy a page or so ago about how many meds should be "allowed" in order to call something a "true solo". I'm not going to worship someone because he ran a marathon blindfolded, especially if he came in last place.

[Konda]

You're obsessing about speed too much.
The thing that sets Avesta and other people apart is that they're the FIRST people to try it. They didnt even know if it was possible when they started.
If you told somebody that RDM could solo 3/4 of the sky gods before any of the videos came out; they might have beleived Genbu, but Seiryu and Suzaku people would have laughed at you.

It's the same thing when people say Jimi Hendrix wasnt a good guitarist, because thousands of people can do what he did. Hendrix was the first to do it, he was the one who thought "hey, what if..." when everyone else was doing something else. He didn't have anyone to show him how, or to demonstrate.

This is just a game, and things like Avesta and Hendrix can't be directly compared. I just put it in there to put it into context.

Unfortunatly, until you do something as pioneering as Avesta you're going to be in his shadow, no matter how good you are.

[drwaffles]

The thing that sets Avesta and other people apart is that they're the FIRST people to try it.

Jesus fucking Christ, I've said this countless times, stop reading selectively. No one is arguing against that point. The notion that he is better at soloing than other people and all that bullshit about it being "effortless and fluid" is what's being debated. Do you need any more bold text to help with your reading comprehension?

[Charismatic]

It depends on the RDM, obviously, but I imagine the people I know who are capable of doing it would probably come out ahead. Suzaku isn't even horrifically difficult, just horrifically long. Although that said I personally know two people who have killed it faster than Avesta did. This is a stupid measure of someone's solo ability anyway - if you're able to solo Suzaku it is assumed that you're not going to die due to a stupid mistake, which means the only real way to wipe is due to bad luck. At this point ranking should be based on the speed and efficiency with which one solos something, and Avesta loses quite frequently in that department.

This actually isn't a fair argument, you're talking about RDMs now and Avesta then.
That's just silly.

They had time to learn from his technique and probably have better gear than he did and also, the videos he posts are usually his first solo.
I doubt many, if any, of the folks you speak of killed it faster than he did on their first attempt... and hell, they had time to analyze his video to death! I bet if you saw him solo the shit today it'd be better than in the videos.

I'm no Avesta cocksucker, but I'll tell you this... saying that his solos weren't hella impressive and worthy of praise just sounds like jealousy to me. If you were Avesta you'd probably be talking about how great the solos were.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Why is Waffles' point so difficult to grasp? He's giving Avesta creativity points for being the first, and rightfully so. As far as I'm concerned, Avesta is pretty brilliant because of that.

That aside, he's not even remotely special in terms of carrying out his plans. He makes mistakes like everyone else, he doesn't kill things better(read: faster) than anyone else; He's just another well-geared, well-merited red mage.

[drwaffles]

the videos he posts are usually his first solo.

I very, very much doubt that is true. For some less difficult NMs? Yeah, probably. But Suzaku, and certainly Seiryu, I really don't think so. Inb4 Thorny's anecdote about watching him wipe to Zipacna.

I doubt many, if any, of the folks you speak of killed it faster than he did on their first attempt...

Both of them did, due to the fact that they didn't run him out of MP before Chainspell. The text at the bottom of Avesta's zoome.jp video states that he did.

and hell, they had time to analyze his video to death! I bet if you saw him solo the shit today it'd be better than in the videos.

I doubt either of them did that, but you'd have to ask them yourself. You see, the strategy to solo Suzaku is not at all complicated - the reason no one had tried it before was because, to most people, it wasn't worth potentially wasting a pop set just to see if it was possible. If you tell any good RDM that such and such an NM is soloable, chances are they can easily figure out the strategy for themselves. We didn't need Avesta to show us how to solo things after the first couple of videos (and he wasn't the first person to do it anyway). What he did was show that certain mobs are soloable. And no, that doesn't mean I don't think he deserves credit. As I've always said, I think the guy deserves major props for being gutsy enough to try things out. Trust me, I've been on the opposite side of this debate before.

I'm no Avesta cocksucker, but I'll tell you this... saying that his solos weren't hella impressive and worthy of praise just sounds like jealousy to me.

To reiterate, they were impressive because no one either thought of doing them or could be bothered to check if they were possible. That's a given, there's no argument against that in my opinion. But that's not what this argument is about. We're discussing execution and efficiency, not overall credentials.

[Charismatic]

Of course he makes mistakes, but drwaffles is making it out as if Avesta isn't top-notch. He's basically saying that Avesta is run-of-the-mill which is not true.

There are a lot of players out there who are not as good. He's not perfect but he is damn good.

[Charismatic]

I very, very much doubt that is true. For some less difficult NMs? Yeah, probably. But Suzaku, and certainly Seiryu, I really don't think so. Inb4 Thorny's anecdote about watching him wipe to Zipacna.

Solo attempt != Solo

If you say that it does, I'll tell you that I've soloed almost every mob in the game. Sure, I never actually beat quite a few of them... but I'm pretty sure you should have been able to infer that I meant successful solo.


Also, I doubt the RDMs you spoke of beat it without running him out of MP prior to CS on their first attempt unless they were following someone else's lead. That is a gutsy move that most people would not make, kinda like being the first to try the thing in the first place.
You're already admitting that they aren't that type of person simply due to the fact that they didn't even think to try it til Avesta did.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Of course he makes mistakes, but drwaffles is making it out as if Avesta isn't top-notch. He's basically saying that Avesta is run-of-the-mill which is not true.

There are a lot of players out there who are not as good. He's not perfect but he is damn good.

As far as the soloist community goes, he is run-of-the-mill. We're not saying he's of the same caliber as the idiots you see at Khimaira wearing Electrum Rings and an Al Zahbi Sash.

[Charismatic]

As far as the soloist community goes, he is run-of-the-mill. We're not saying he's of the same caliber as the idiots you see at Khimaira wearing Electrum Rings and an Al Zahbi Sash.

You could be right but I honestly doubt it.

[Konda]

Suzaku is not at all complicated - the reason no one had tried it before was because, to most people, it wasn't worth potentially wasting a pop set just to see if it was possible. If you tell any good RDM that such and such an NM is soloable, chances are they can easily figure out the strategy for themselves. We didn't need Avesta to show us how to solo things after the first couple of videos (and he wasn't the first person to do it anyway). What he did was show that certain mobs are soloable. And no, that doesn't mean I don't think he deserves credit. As I've always said, I think the guy deserves major props for being gutsy enough to try things out. Trust me, I've been on the opposite side of this debate before.

I wasnt saying Avesta is the be all and end all of RDMs, but because he was the one to actually try it, he's the most renound.
He's clearly an above average player, if he was the best ever or not is debatable. It's too hard to compare things from the past with things today, especially in something which changes as quickly as FFXI.
You can't compare Muhammed Ali with someone like Mike Tyson, because they're from different eras and can't be directly and fairly compared.

To gain the same recognition, you need to raise the bar, not just jump over it.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You could be right but I honestly doubt it.

Try to keep in mind that we're still acknowledging the fact that he's a fuckton more creative that I could ever hope to be, but as far as execution goes, he's just not that special.

[FailureMidgard]

I know we've been told not to continue the Windower debate, but I'll just say that it's stupid to give someone more credit for doing something other people are able to do just because they gimp themselves. This harks back to the idiocy a page or so ago about how many meds should be "allowed" in order to call something a "true solo". I'm not going to worship someone because he ran a marathon blindfolded, especially if he came in last place.

May I ask how the whole idea of soloing is not "gimping themselves"? Maybe you can argue the gil split with 2 people is lower, but what about 2boxing them? Or how about "soloing Big Bomb on Ninja". We know its easier on red mage, so again, purposefully gimping yourself for something different/more challenging.

I don't think there should be a qualification on solo's by any means, but I think you are delusional to say that lack of windower doesn't make it harder...

This is a really stupid debate either way, and I'm not trying to argue any side atm, just pointing out what seems to be quite hypocritical...

[Charismatic]

Try to keep in mind that we're still acknowledging the fact that he's a fuckton more creative that I could ever hope to be, but as far as execution goes, he's just not that special.

I dunno dude, those old ps2 videos with him hitting 2-3 macros to gear swap and still being fucking on-the-ball was goddamn impressive to me.
Seeing people barely able to keep up with unlimited maco lines and recast timers up on their screen just doesn't make him look run-of-the-mill to me.

He could be, but I really haven't seen anything that puts him to shame. Or hell, anything that really looks significantly better.

[Wrish]

I'll just say that it's stupid to give someone more credit for doing something other people are able to do just because they gimp themselves.

The WHOLE NOTION of a solo is that you gimp yourself by acting alone to make the normally unremarkable end result a noteworthy accomplishment. What job setup you pick and whether you further abstain from NPCs, meds, or macro assistance of course figures into our perception of the performance.

Making another RDM-solos-big-bomb video would mean little except to prove that you know the difficulty of doing it (and that I haven't seen one in English... why?). But win that with any other job and you'll turn heads for being first... many heads if you appear to do it optimally.

describe exactly what you mean by "level of control"

I could answer that. It's (1) the urgency and quantity of tasks you can have in flight without messing up - complexity, (2) how well your technique guards against losing situations - strategy, and (3) how intelligently and quickly you react to unforeseen but winnable situations - execution. If there's no situational challenge - if everything is going by rhythm - then you aren't really demonstrating control or execution. You're just pressing macro keys from memory.

Both of them did, due to the fact that they didn't run him out of MP before Chainspell. The text at the bottom of Avesta's zoome.jp video states that he did.

You don't know that they soloed Suzaku faster. Avesta's technique was not to run him out of MP before 2hr, simply because he started using Bio3 from the start. It was luck that Suzaku 2hr'ed too late to cast anything. Btw, how long was Avesta's solo?