Men are becoming more like Women

[Ksandra]

http://www.oprah.com/relationships/W...e-Like-Women/1

In its recent special on the state of American women, Time magazine announced that the gender wars were over and declared a tie. "It's no longer a man's world," Time concluded. "Nor is it a woman's nation. It's a cooperative, with bylaws under constant negotiation and expectations that profits be equally shared."

I'm not so sure. In a war, no matter the outcome of a certain skirmish or battle, the winner is the party whose attitudes, behaviors and preoccupations come to dominate the postwar landscape. By this measure, the outcome of the gender wars, if wars they were, is clear: Women won.

Men's attitudes more and more resemble women's attitudes. In 1977, for example, 72 percent of men believed men should be the primary breadwinners and women should be the primary caretakers of home and family. Today, only 42 percent of men hold those opinions, which happens to be almost exactly the same as the percentage of women who feel that way (38 percent).

Men's behaviors are becoming more and more like women's. In 1977, men spent, on average, only six hours a week doing housework, as compared to 21 hours for women. Today, when it comes to the "second shift," men look a lot like women—men now spend 13 hours a week on housework, while women spend 17. Similarly, 40 years ago, the average Don Draper spent only two hours a day caring for his nonteen kids, while the average Betty devoted almost twice that much time to her kids—3.8 hours per day. Today, Betty's kid time is exactly the same, while Don's has climbed to three hours per day. Gen Y dads have taken it up a notch. They now spend more than four hours a day on childcare.

"To know a culture, look to its heroes," goes the saying, and here, too, we see change and new models of leadership. Gone are the macho monarchs—Jack "Neutron" Welch, George "The Decider" Bush, Michael "Micromanager" Eisner and Carly "The Fighter" Fiorina (not all male models are masculine). In their place, we now honor a new style of leader, no less visionary, but more pragmatic, more conciliatory, building consensus as they quietly get things done—in the Oval Office, Barack Obama; at Hewlett Packard, Mark Hurd; at Disney HQ, Bob Eiger; and at the Welch mansion, the softer, friendlier hybrid, JackandSuzy.

Even our entertainment heroes have lost their masculine muscle. Arnold, Bruce and Stallone are long gone from the screen, but even the flirty, flaky, funny adolescents—Tom, Brad, Jim, and Will—no longer charm us quite as much as they once did. Instead, our leading men are the likes of Zac Efron who, though he can still "Michael Jordan" it on the court, now has to sing and dance charmingly to earn our affection. Or the dangerous but effete and oh-so-delicate Robert Pattinson of Twilight fame. Or the gender-bending, pirate-styling and pretty Johnny Depp. Even James Bond has found his feminine side—all he wants is a quantum of solace, crushed as he is at the thought that the one he loved, really truly loved, betrayed him.

The war is over. Women won. And, as ever, to the victor go the spoils.

And what are the spoils of this particular war?

The spoils are choices. Women have more choices than ever before in their work, home and lifestyles. And yes, men are becoming more like women, and so men are starting to face the same multitude of choices that women tackle.
Today, with many companies offering paternal leave, men now have the choice to stay at home after the birth of their newborn—which, as any dad will tell you, is a wondrous gift. But they also have the choice to take advantage of this leave and stay at home wondering whether this absence will hurt their careers.

Men have the choice to stay at home even longer and assume the chief caregiver role—this happens in 40 percent of U.S. households, either through choice or circumstance (in 40 percent of U.S. households, the woman is the primary wage earner). But they have to face the fact that, in making this choice, their skills might become obsolete and their wages, when they re-enter the workforce, will wind up reflecting their out-of-date proficiency. According to recent research, this kind of career interruption with its attendant decline in relevant skills, rather than pure gender discrimination, accounts for almost all of the fabled 77 cents-on-the-dollar male/female wage gap.

Men have the choice to arrange their schedules so they can pick up the kids from school twice a week. And they have the choice not to, and then to feel guilty about this choice.

The choice-filled world that women have bestowed on men is a tough world. Tough on women; even tougher on men. At least that's what the data reveal. In 1977, 41 percent of women reported feeling some level of work/life conflict, whereas only 35 percent of men did. Today, about the same percentage of women report work/life conflict, but 59 percent of men are now similarly torn.

Or maybe it's not tougher on men. It's just that men aren't used to it, and so they feel it more. And so they complain more, as all novices do.
The victors are leading men into a new world, a world devoid of narrow paths and clear finish lines, a world of broad expanses of choice and role, a world where you, not society, can decide your definitions of success and fulfillment. In its abundance, it is a wonderful world. It is also a world where, as women have found, if you possess a poor internal compass, you can wind up utterly lost.

So wake up, men. Whatever women are feeling, you are now free to feel it too.

It's funny cause while the writer seems to be of the opinion that this is a good thing, it just further proves to me that feminists fucked up everything. But kinda curious to see if people believe that women have "won" the war at this point.

In a way I don't think so, I think they are in the lead for sure (we now get everything men get and more), but the war isn't over, because women are still fighting for "equality" which is basically fighting to make sure they get everything they want. In many ways, the war of the sexes is like the war in Iraq. Women don't know why they're still there (and probably shouldn't have been there in the first place), but they'll keep fighting for ever and ever and ever.

[Diamicles]

fact: pussy always wins wars. or causes them.

[Tankjr]

Depends who you ask. According to one study, women are actually less happy after 40 years of feminism. So who really won?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6395879.ece

[Pirian]

Depends who you ask. According to one study, women are actually less happy after 40 years of feminism. So who really won?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6395879.ece

Figuring out why men average, on average, shorter lifespans

[Tankjr]

Figuring out why men average, on average, shorter lifespans

Environment vs. Heredity

I blame delicious bacon... and women... delicious women.

[Ferien]

http://www.oprah.com/relationships/W...e-Like-Women/1

It's funny cause while the writer seems to be of the opinion that this is a good thing, it just further proves to me that feminists fucked up everything. But kinda curious to see if people believe that women have "won" the war at this point.

In a way I don't think so, I think they are in the lead for sure (we now get everything men get and more), but the war isn't over, because women are still fighting for "equality" which is basically fighting to make sure they get everything they want. In many ways, the war of the sexes is like the war in Iraq. Women don't know why they're still there (and probably shouldn't have been there in the first place), but they'll keep fighting for ever and ever and ever.

Noone's "won" anything. The only thing that's changed is that people have realized that women have the same ability to do certain jobs as men do. That being said, and it may just be my own experience and the difference between the men and women I know, I've found a lot more women in the workplace expect respect, promotions, and a certain type of treatment, whereas most men know it needs to be earned. If you don't do your job right, you're going to be shit on, whether you're a man or a woman, and I've seen a lot more women complain and blame everything and everyone but themselves, whereas men are more likely to accept responsibility and make the necessary changes.

Like I said, this is from my own experience. Yours may be different.

[Ksandra]

Depends who you ask. According to one study, women are actually less happy after 40 years of feminism. So who really won?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6395879.ece

That's why I ask bg to see what people think. tbh that times article fits into what I always say (that feminism fucked everything up). If you look at the oprah article, it isn't so much that men are taking the place of women, so much as it seems in totally more time is being devoted to things overall.

Women now have 40 hour jobs like men, but that means 80 hours is being put into the household not 40 like the old times (excluding overtime), and yet the housework, kid-caring, overall life is still there and needs to be put in. According to the O article men used to do household chores for about 6 hours a week, where women did 21 (total is 27). Now men do 13 and women do 17 (total is 30). Think about it women saved only 4 hours of chore time by picking up 40 hours of work time (does not compute).

Essentially, women aren't happy because this has caused them to work more, and the husbands are still working the same as they used to. Basically, everyone is tired.


however, you could still consider them to have "won" economic-wise, but lost "happiness-wise". For some dumb reason though women will keep fighting.

[Kryssan]

Its just bemusement, really. The three beats of revolution, war, and peace will forever continue; eventually someone will find a reason to captivate others into executing their desires.


In short, Machiavelli's quote on war's postponement couldn't be more accurate.

[Ksandra]

Noone's "won" anything. The only thing that's changed is that people have realized that women have the same ability to do certain jobs as men do. That being said, and it may just be my own experience and the difference between the men and women I know, I've found a lot more women in the workplace expect respect, promotions, and a certain type of treatment, whereas most men know it needs to be earned. If you don't do your job right, you're going to be shit on, whether you're a man or a woman, and I've seen a lot more women complain and blame everything and everyone but themselves, whereas men are more likely to accept responsibility and make the necessary changes.

Like I said, this is from my own experience. Yours may be different.

I actually agree, I have worked in staffs of mostly women and staffs of mostly men, and there was a lot less issues in the staffs of mostly men category, because men just get their job done. Women stand around and gossip about each other then complain when their boss tells them "less talking, more working".

[The Stig]

Reminds me of:

"Women now have choices. They can be married, not married, have a job, not have a job, be married with children, unmarried with children. Men have the same choice we've always had: work or prison."

[Diamicles]

maybe when we can punch women in the face without real repercussions then we can say that the war is over.

or has it just then begun?

[Tankjr]

maybe when we can punch women in the face without real repercussions then we can say that the war is over.

or has it just then begun?

use a phone book on 'em

[wipers]

The problem I've always had with feminism in general is that is raises women above men. If we all strive for equality but have one sex dominating over the other. We can never be truly equal. Sure women have come a long way from the 1960's feminist movement, but like Ksandra said they will always be fighting to make up for it. I've had conflicted views of feminism. It is good for women to do better for themselves, but it might make men hate them more. lol

[Chicomagiko]

Stopped reading after Zac.

[ZarakiKujata]

Yeah clearly feminism fucked up having little to no recourse for your husband beating you, not being able to have any money in your name, abortion/birth control legality, not being able to go to 'men's' colleges, having to work as a secretary/teacher(who were not allowed to show any signs of sexual activity like having your own children or being married in front of children for fear of corrupting them), I mean I could go on but sure life seemed so much better back when your kind were expected to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen making the rest of us a sandwich and not speaking your mind on the internet.

edit: that whole point about Zac Efron replacing Arnold/Bruce is such bullshit because back in the day musicals were the most popular form of tv/movies evar. Gene Kelly sure was a fag huh

[willriker]

meh, let them bitch about equal rights. It only means that there is less time for them to complain about everything else.

[Ksandra]

Yeah clearly feminism fucked up having little to no recourse for your husband beating you, not being able to have any money in your name, abortion/birth control legality, not being able to go to 'men's' colleges, having to work as a secretary/teacher(who were not allowed to show any signs of sexual activity like having your own children or being married in front of children for fear of corrupting them), I mean I could go on but sure life seemed so much better back when your kind were expected to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen making the rest of us a sandwich and not speaking your mind on the internet.

While I will admit when it comes to "beatings" I'm glad that was changed, but it is in favor of women now too. We all hear about how a man hits a woman they get jail time, woman hits a man she gets fined. So again, good it's changed, but it's not equal.

Did you read the times article Tankjr posted? Life now is not making women happier. As to the workplace thing, as I've said in the past, I don't like how we are "forced" to be in the workplace. Really I would have preferred it to have always been one parent running the household (men could stay home if you really wanted it).

Women coming into the workplace doubled the amount of employees the country has to handle. As well, business owners when setting wages except if you have a family there are two bread-makers instead of one, meaning they don't have to pay their workers as much and that old fashion idea of "can I have a raise I want to buy a house for my family" has been long weeded out.

Again too, now parents are putting in 80 hours instead of 40 per week to pay the bills. But chores still have to get done. When one parent works, the other can get the chores done during the day so they can both relax at night. Now their either have to try to get it done after work (though tired) or get it all done of the weekend (taking it up). Not to mention it means less time to focus on your kids school work/life.

Simply put, even if women wanted to work, having two parents work was I think a terrible thing for family life. And unfortunately, economy-wise it forces most families to do so.

I think my biggest problem with feminism is not that it exists, but how far it got.

meh, let them bitch about equal rights. It only means that they have more to bitch at you when they get home at night.

ftfy

[aduidarnenye]

It would be impossible to go "back to the old ways" because most married couples with children need two incomes just to survive. And in fact, it's a bit of a myth that women did not work out of the home until recently. Upper-middle class women, and some middle class women, did not work outside of the home, and this was seen as the ideal. But lower class women (and surprisingly, upper class women) have always worked outside the home. Homelife hasn't changed much.

Plus, those fabled "old ways" aren't really that old. They only date from post-WW2 when the mark of success was a home in the suburbs and an unemployed wife. Pre-WW2 women did a lot more than just put clothes into the washing machine and dishes into the dishwasher. They had a purpose that wasn't just cooking and cleaning, they actually had to produce (such as a kitchen garden or sewing) for their families to survive. Married women in the "golden age" of the Greatest Generation never had to do that kind of stuff so they had their purposes taken away and became very, very bored.

So you can say that feminism is therefore the result of American male ingenuity when they invented all those lovely time saving household devices.

I've also read that a lot of the things that were supposed to save time actually made it so much very worse because the standards for cleanliness shot up. My own mother, who was married in 1973, would be horrified at a glass ring on a table or a speck of dust on a picture frame.


Most women are actually glad that we get to worry about shitty stuff. Before we had that opprotunity we were put on pedastels and protected, like children. I would much rather take worrying about my own independence and bills than having my husband take the full burden. What would happen to me if I had no income and no ability to take care of my own finances if my husband suddenly died?


Another thing, when no-fault divorce came into being it gave women an opprotunity to get out of marriages that were very bad. But feminists also recognised that it gave men the opprotunity to get out of marriages as well. Some of those divorces were the result of men wanting younger, newer women to replace the wives who brought up their children and cleaned their houses for 20 years. This left a lot of women penniless because they had no work experience. It's taking the good with the bad, really. You know that kind of thing will happen but it's only fair and has to be lumped.



Finally, one of Canada's naval warships has a female captain. The HMCS Halifax, which is currently on a mission in Haiti. I think that is very, very cool.



Here's a great book to read about the modern history of women: "When Everything Changed: The History of American Women from 1960 to Present" by Gail Collins. Excellent book, explains everything without taking sides. It's a Colbert bump book actually.

[arus2001]

Maybe it's just the fact I grew up in a house with four girls to two guys, but I kinda feel like that women have indeed "won" things for now. Even when you're little, it's stuff like don't hit girls even if they hit you, go easy on them in competitions, let them do stuff first, and so on. Jump to more adult years, and yeah, I've made similar workplace observations as others and even feel they hold all the power over sex with the rape card just around the corner if they suddenly made a terrible lapse in judgment.

Kinda feels similar to reverse racism, too. There are times where I feel like being a white dude works against me when job hunting and the like.

[Zoolander]

Kinda feels similar to reverse racism, too. There are times where I feel like being a white dude works against me when job hunting and the like.

White Males are the new Black Females.


I say meh to this whole thing. Women got the tools to do what they please, what they do with them is up to them. Never liked these "studies." The world is far too complex and diverse to boil down the human experience into a few paragraphs.