Men are becoming more like Women

[Zoolander]

All these differing opinions and takes on life just in this thread alone is exactly why these studies are bull shit.

Could say more, Beckwin pretty much has it right though. A lot of you guys have very misunderstood views of feminism and the history of womens rights...

[wipers]

I still can't believe something coming from Oprah's website has sparked semi-intelligent thread. I thought all she did was hug people and bitch about her weight ?

[SephYuyX]

My husband is training to be a nurse.

$10 that if nurses didnt get paid a nice piece of cash for basically a janitor job, he'd never want to be one.
That or he realised woman cant be trusted with other peoples lives in their hands. Snap.

[Lyn]

nurses didnt get paid a nice piece of cash for basically a janitor job

So true.

[Soa]

I never really understood why so many people want to be nurses, might as well just be a doctor instead. They get more money, more respect and prestige, and they have nurses to do all the shitty grunt work for them.

As for the article, the whole Zac Efron part pretty much invalidated the whole thing.

[SephYuyX]

You have to actualy know stuff to become a doctor.

[Vail]

If you're so concerned about men not getting a fairshare then why don't you start as social movement for it?

I'm a member of an MRA (men's right activism)
I do my part, I help organize fund raisers mostly for father's rights in child custody cases.

there is a social movement for men's rights (takes less then 10sec to find info on it with google)

On top of that, it's really silly to say that wages are reduced because there are two earners in a home. That's as silly as saying the reason women were paid less because it's just "pin money" for themselves while their husbands are the big breadwinners. There are a lot more economic reasons behind wages than that.

I know there is a metric ton of reasons for wage changes but: if people years ago could have one working parent and support a family while today many families have 2 working parents and are struggling says alot. The answer to why is not simple

stuff about nurses

All true, which is why I'm training to be a nurse ('-'*)

[Kuya]

Who knew that men's rights activists were more concerned with complaining about women than arguing about why men need to be more active. Nice face you're puting forward.

[aduidarnenye]

I know there is a metric ton of reasons for wage changes but: if people years ago could have one working parent and support a family while today many families have 2 working parents and are struggling says alot. The answer to why is not simple

I'm wondering what the exact numbers are for all these single earner households. I don't think they were as many as people believe. As I pointed out above, women have always worked outside of the home and it was only really a small percentage of families that lived on a single income. I think that the perception is different than the reality.



My husband says that he wants to be a nurse and not a doctor partially becacuse he doesn't want to commit 8-10 years of schooling with shit hours while getting massively into debt (he also said something about having a family but I tuned him out at that point). He's also more interested in long term patient care than the work that doctors do. Beats me, I hate caring for anyone who is sick and icky and totally don't understand it.

[SilverBreeze]

I never really understood why so many people want to be nurses, might as well just be a doctor instead. They get more money, more respect and prestige, and they have nurses to do all the shitty grunt work for them.

As for the article, the whole Zac Efron part pretty much invalidated the whole thing.

Because some of us like working with people rather than being walking vending machines.

I like working and interacting with people, that's why I chose to be one.

You can tell the difference between people who are nurses for the paycheck, and people who are nurses because they generally care about the well being of other people and want to help them.

[Beckwin]

For people who claim there's nothing left to fight for: I guess you're okay with constant assaults on reproductive rights (read up on the current healthcare debate for how forms of birth control and abortion are being excluded from anything the government has a hand in), the serious image issues women deal with leading to dangerous eating disorders (men face similar problems but leading to steroid abuse), severe under-representation of women in government and higher academics, the treatment of women in countries we actively support, specific plights of minority women (white girls, it's not just all about you), discrimination against lesbians (gay males, as well), underreporting of rape and resistance by localities to provide rape kits to victims, continuing issues of domestic violence, etc?

If there's at least one thing in that list (or one I neglected to include that relates to gender) that bothers you, then you've still got something to fight for.

On the note of men taking a stand on important issues: they've begun to do so, and in a lot of ways they've been successful. Erectile dysfunction, while still a butt of jokes, isn't the skeleton in the closet it used to be. Stay-at-home dads are now viewed enviously in some lights, and fathering has been steadily improving. Big Brothers was an early instance of men identifying a male problem and trying to fix it (young men growing up without a positive male role model they identify with). Men's health issues are achieving solid awareness. Gay men are being increasingly accepted by mainstream society (still tons of problems, but compare today to the late 70s/early 80s. Gays have gotten a lot of work done).

What's more is that (female) feminists and male (feminists) have been supporting each other in many of these issues. Which is a major point, if you understand anything about feminism.

[Beckwin]

It's funny actually about the college argument, as there is a program in NC? I think (or possibly SC it's been awhile), where if your sister got pregnant when she was 16 you can go to college on a scholarship for not getting pregnant at 16. This applies to women only, and funded by the state. Boys get squat for not getting girls pregnant.

This is like using a negative Affirmative Action anecdote to criticize the civil rights movement.

As I stated the biggest issue I have is not so much as women in the workplace, but it being double breadmakers. I said before I don't care if the man stayed at home and the woman worked, I just feel one should stay at home. And the problem is that that is becoming a harder and harder choice to make because society now views both parents working, therefore don't need to pay an employee under the idea they are providing for the whole family.

This is a problem with our consumerist culture and economic structure, not feminism.

[Vail]

Who knew that men's rights activists were more concerned with complaining about women than arguing about why men need to be more active. Nice face you're puting forward.

lol wut?
I'll keep making the difference I do, you can keep doing... whatever it is you do.

For people who claim there's nothing left to fight for

oh there is plenty left to fight for on all ends, but us men have falling behind and we got some catching up to do.

And thanks for saying the following:

On the note of men taking a stand on important issues: they've begun to do so, and in a lot of ways they've been successful.

[Kuya]

I don't think it helps men's issues to give off the appearance of hostility towards women or feminists; that never helped the feminists.
'
edit: it's not women's fault that men are falling behind, even if they aren't really helping.

[Beckwin]

Vail, it's dishonest and somewhat hypocritical (maybe not hypocritical... just shitty) to talk about helping men when you have to disparage women in order to do it.

Something to note is that feminism advanced alongside minority issues and queer issues, often working in cooperation or at least in complement. If you think men's issues are going to get by on a (white) male persecution complex at the expense of other demographics (which is historically and ethically laughable).... I dunno what to tell you.

[aduidarnenye]

I read somewhere that when girls are in classrooms with boys they do poorly academically. When they're on their own they do much better. The opposite is true for the boys: when they are in classrooms with girls they do better and they do worse when they're on their own.

I've always wondered why this is the case.

[Beckwin]

really, to say that men have "fallen behind" can only be correct if you say they've fallen behind in terms of dominance and privilege from their Victorian counterparts. generally speaking, I wouldn't call that falling behind at all.

[Kashka]

I've never heard of a feminist criticizing a woman for being a stay-at-home mom, I have heard feminists criticize stay-at-home moms who do not develop interests or experiences outside of the home. There's a difference between being a stay-at-home mom and being entirely self indulgent and using being a homemaker as an excuse. Either way, the idea is they have the choice to work and contribute (or not) to society as they see fit. They are not being forced into a certain role due to the fact that they have two X chromosomes.

I'm gonna use this to quote to help point something out I've noticed. Everyone has been mentioning feminism without really bothering to point out which one they're talking about. There's the "all people are equal in the eyes of the law and in opportunities" kind and then there's the "the patriarchy has kept women in a state of perpetual oppression and society itself needs to be overhauled" kind. The following is an example of the second kind as voiced by Simone de Beauvoir in a dialogue that was printed:

"No, we don't believe that any woman should have this choice. No woman should be authorized to stay at home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one".

That's the kind of feminism that fucks everything up. The kind that misleadingly reports scientific data to make the general population believe that women have low self-esteem, are overlooked in schools in favor of boys, are at huge risk for rape and domestic violence, and a bunch of other things to help reinforce the idea that women are victims and that the perpetrators are men and a patriarchal society. And they've unfortunately been really successful at what they do. To give a quick, dirty, and tip of the iceberg example, the Women's Educational Equity Act Publishing Center, which works under contract for the department of education to promote gender equity, had a director who fully believed that "Every year, nearly four million women are beaten to death, Violence is the leading cause of death among women, and the leading cause of injury among women is being beaten by a man at home". Which is awesome, because at the time female deaths of all causes amounted to only one million. And this woman works or worked for the government to help transform America's schools.

It's amazing actually to see what the crazy feminists have done and how successful they have been. Perhaps most amazing of all is that the vast majority of women feel that they, who speak in their name, don't represent them and their interests at all. But they just rationalize it away by saying the patriarchy has hypnotized them and forced them to internalize their subjugation to men. Which ultimately means that those feminists are the ones actually patronizing women...

[SephYuyX]

I read somewhere that when girls are in classrooms with boys they do poorly academically. When they're on their own they do much better. The opposite is true for the boys: when they are in classrooms with girls they do better and they do worse when they're on their own.

I've always wondered why this is the case.

Because mommy and daddy are paying for their education. I sat front row center and paid attention to the teacher the entire class. I couldnt tell you who was or wasnt in the same class with me.

[Kuya]

really, to say that men have "fallen behind" can only be correct if you say they've fallen behind in terms of dominance and privilege from their Victorian counterparts. generally speaking, I wouldn't call that falling behind at all.

He probably means falling behind in terms of being held to harsher standards than women. Men are expected to be tougher and less sentimental than is considered psychologically healthy, furthermore, men have to worry too much about keeping up appearences which is more of a nuissance than honestly helpful. Point being, society can be more accepting of two women making out, but the idea of two men getting close means the apocalypse has suddenly erupted.