Men are becoming more like Women

[aduidarnenye]

Something to note is that feminism advanced alongside minority issues and queer issues, often working in cooperation or at least in complement. If you think men's issues are going to get by on a (white) male persecution complex at the expense of other demographics (which is historically and ethically laughable).... I dunno what to tell you.

Interesting story:

During the civil rights battles of the 50s and 60s there was a lot of opposition to the Civil Rights Act. In 1964 one of the senators, Howard Smith, proposed that they add 'gender' to the list behind 'race' and 'religion'. The two female senators at the time picked it up and ran with it.

But Smith did not make the proposal because he believed in civil rights for women. He made it because he thought that the idea of women getting equal civil rights would be so ludicrous that the bill would be shot down.

Law of unintended consquences.

After the bill passed there was a commission set up for equal rights in employment (I forget the official name). The employees of the commision expected the first people through the door would be black men. Instead, they got white female stewardesses, who had been discriminated against since the beginning of commercial flight: with weight restrictions, restrictions against marriage, etc. It was the first court case the equal employment people won.

[Beckwin]

that would be what he logically should mean, but the tone of this whole topic leads me to the other assumption.

[SilverBreeze]

Because mommy and daddy are paying for their education. I sat front row center and paid attention to the teacher the entire class. I couldnt tell you who was or wasnt in the same class with me.

I hate to agree with Seph because he's a douche but I always noticed that people I knew and my friends that paid for their own education always did better in school than those who get essentially a free ride.

[SephYuyX]

Why am I a douche ;-;? ilu

[Kuya]

Paternal rights is also an issue where men get screwed over quite often, he probably also means that.

[Beckwin]

I'm gonna use this to quote to help point something out I've noticed. Everyone has been mentioning feminism without really bothering to point out which one they're talking about. There's the "all people are equal in the eyes of the law and in opportunities" kind and then there's the "the patriarchy has kept women in a state of perpetual oppression and society itself needs to be overhauled" kind. The following is an example of the second kind as voiced by Simone de Beauvoir in a dialogue that was printed:

"No, we don't believe that any woman should have this choice. No woman should be authorized to stay at home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one".

That's the kind of feminism that fucks everything up. The kind that misleadingly reports scientific data to make the general population believe that women have low self-esteem, are overlooked in schools in favor of boys, are at huge risk for rape and domestic violence, and a bunch of other things to help reinforce the idea that women are victims and that the perpetrators are men and a patriarchal society. And they've unfortunately been really successful at what they do. To give a quick, dirty, and tip of the iceberg example, the Women's Educational Equity Act Publishing Center, which works under contract for the department of education to promote gender equity, had a director who fully believed that "Every year, nearly four million women are beaten to death, Violence is the leading cause of death among women, and the leading cause of injury among women is being beaten by a man at home". Which is awesome, because at the time female deaths of all causes amounted to only one million. And this woman works or worked for the government to help transform America's schools.

It's amazing actually to see what the crazy feminists have done and how successful they have been. Perhaps most amazing of all is that the vast majority of women feel that they, who speak in their name, don't represent them and their interests at all. But they just rationalize it away by saying the patriarchy has hypnotized them and forced them to internalize their subjugation to men. Which ultimately means that those feminists are the ones actually patronizing women...

Do you think that de Beauvoir thinks that no woman should have a child or something? There's a very strong argument for societal restructuring along equitable gender lines, and I think her point is that any society still operating along existing gender relations would de facto be forcing a disproportionate number of women into a domestic life, essentially saying that the "choice" would in too many cases be illusory.

And I'm pretty sure that lots of studies have shown that women do have a lot of self-esteem issues, and that women are severely underrepresented in a range of fields, and so on. I don't really think anyone is just "making stuff up" as you claim (aside from the lady whose quote implies 4 million domestic violence deaths in America- I'd like to see more context on her quote though).

[aduidarnenye]

It wouldn't shock me if people, i.e. the ardent crazy feminists, were making stuff up to support their claims. People have a gift for exaggeration. But just because some people make up false claims doesn't invalidate all claims. Just have to be able to shift through the muck and figure out what is real and what is not. The ardent crazy anti-feminists are probably also making stuff up.

[Vail]

Vail, it's dishonest and somewhat hypocritical (maybe not hypocritical... just shitty) to talk about helping men when you have to disparage women in order to do it.

maybe I'm missunderstanding(maybe you are) but I'm not doing anything to harm women's rights
I'm supportive of women's rights and have not said anything otherwise: I even commented how social pressure against women hurts their right to choices (as social pressure also effects men)

by falling behind: I ment in regard to not doing our part to better human life for both women and men alike.

it's not women's fault that men are falling behind, even if they aren't really helping

it's men's own fault, which is why we got catching up to do and some of us are taking great strides to make that difference.

[Kashka]

really, to say that men have "fallen behind" can only be correct if you say they've fallen behind in terms of dominance and privilege from their Victorian counterparts. generally speaking, I wouldn't call that falling behind at all.

More women attend college, finish high school, and get better grades. Girls are also more engaged in school, meaning they get there prepared for class, do their homework, and pay attention in class. They also feel that teachers believe they are smarter, prefer to be around them more often, and give them more attention unless that attention is negative such as punishment.

More women are encouraged to get into college by their parents than men are, participate in extra-curricular activities, and believe they will be successful. They are largely ahead on standardized tests for verbal and writing skills, and suffer nearly negligible deficits in science and math.

The myth that schoolgirls are shortchanged has deprived boys of a lot of attention they need, and in turn they have fallen behind. Virtually the only areas boys have an advantage in anymore is math/science and sports enrollment. One of the problems is that areas where boys are winning are "problem areas" and when girls overtake them people stop paying attention because it has because "a triumph of gender equity". With the attention and funding so heavily favored to girls, it has allowed boys to fall to the wayside.

[Beckwin]

Paternal rights is also an issue where men get screwed over quite often, he probably also means that.

And if that's the case, I'm pretty daaaaamn sure that feminists don't have a problem with men desiring to be the primary caregiver of a child.

[Beckwin]

maybe I'm missunderstanding(maybe you are) but I'm not doing anything to harm women's rights
I'm supportive of women's rights and have not said anything otherwise: I even commented how social pressure against women hurts their right to choices (as social pressure also effects men)

by falling behind: I ment in regard to not doing our part to better human life for both women and men alike.

it's men's own fault, which is why we got catching up to do and some of us are taking great strides to make that difference.

then why did you say that feminism has damaged society (a pretty strong statement), and things are worse off now than they were (presumably before the feminist movement really took off)?

[Ksandra]

I'm gonna use this to quote to help point something out I've noticed. Everyone has been mentioning feminism without really bothering to point out which one they're talking about. There's the "all people are equal in the eyes of the law and in opportunities" kind and then there's the "the patriarchy has kept women in a state of perpetual oppression and society itself needs to be overhauled" kind.

I will attest to this.

Part of the overall issue in the thread is people seem to have their own definition of what makes a feminist. I follow basically the wiki's description:

The term feminism can be used to describe a political, cultural or economic movement aimed at establishing equal rights and legal protection for women. Feminism involves political, cultural and sociological theories, as well as philosophies concerned with issues of gender difference.

The gender difference is the big issue, and what past feminists were essentially fighting for.

For people who claim there's nothing left to fight for: I guess you're okay with constant assaults on reproductive rights (read up on the current healthcare debate for how forms of birth control and abortion are being excluded from anything the government has a hand in), the serious image issues women deal with leading to dangerous eating disorders (men face similar problems but leading to steroid abuse), severe under-representation of women in government and higher academics, the treatment of women in countries we actively support, specific plights of minority women (white girls, it's not just all about you), discrimination against lesbians (gay males, as well), underreporting of rape and resistance by localities to provide rape kits to victims, continuing issues of domestic violence, etc?

In these examples most have nothing to do with creating gender equality. If condoms are being ruled out the same as the pill for reproductive rights, then that is equality.

Abortion is a whole other can of worms because as it is currently, the father has no say in the mother getting an abortion, showing that woman have more of a choice than the man in this case.

Eating disorders is not about gender inequality, it's an image issue that is shared in both sexes. (more so than men, but I equate that because women tend to be more emotional than men).

I don't feel women are under representative in the gov't, do we seriously have to force a 50-50 government base to be "equal"? that is the type of thing I find silly.

Treatment of women in other countries is the only thing I can remotely consider to be what feminism should be doing. The problem is, however, is often they take a look at it through American eyes, and that is usually a problem with helping other countries in anything not just the women.

Discrimination against lesbians again isn't about being equal to men. And as you stated the same issue holds for gays. In fact, in my experience (though I HAVE NO STATISTIC, so this is just mostly my own musings), I have found people to be more socially accepting of lesbians than of gays. This I actually would like to see a study on...*ponders*

Domestic violence towards women is a hard one to explain, and I'm kinda worried about going into it cause I know I'm not going to put my thoughts down right but here it goes: It is extremely bad. I don't want to compare it to other crimes because that is mostly opinion based. I feel though at this point that the punishments against domestic violence is pretty much at where it should be. Law enforcement do whatever they can to prevent it. And most importantly in the law it is now essentially gender equal (and moreso in favor of women then men.) By that I mean by law, and society, hitting a woman is just as bad (and more) as hitting a man.

Once, fighting domestic violence was centered around protecting women and bringing them equal to men ( and as I said is one of the feminism parts I approve of), it has then broaden to women, men, and children in the home. Fighting against domestic violence today, however, is no longer a gender issue, it is an everyone in the home issue.


I still dunno if I conveyed my thoughts right on that one, but did my best.

Also wanted to quote something interesting posted on the wiki about modern-day feminism:

One issue raised by critics is the lack of a single cause for third-wave feminism. The first wave fought and gained the right for women to vote. The second wave struggled to obtain the right for women to have access and equal opportunity to the workforce, as well as ending of legal sex discrimination.[20]

The third wave of feminism lacks a cohesive goal, and it is often seen as an extension of the second wave.[20] Also, third-wave feminism does not have a set definition that can distinguish itself from second-wave feminism. Some argue the third wave can be dubbed the "Second Wave, Part Two" when it comes to the politics of feminism, and "only young feminist culture as truly third wave".[7

So I guess this would bring the point of what you classify as being a feminist, because it is apparently different than mine.

[Vail]

continuing with what Kashka has said: young men (teens to young adults) are 4 times more likely to commit suicide then their female counter-parts (it's worth noting though that young women are twice as likely to attempt suicide)

[Vail]

then why did you say that feminism has damaged society (a pretty strong statement), and things are worse off now than they were (presumably before the feminist movement really took off)?

first and second wave feminism have done great for our country as a whole, it's the 3rd wave feminism that's really turning stuff in a twister.

[Elites]

More women attend college, finish high school, and get better grades. Girls are also more engaged in school, meaning they get there prepared for class, do their homework, and pay attention in class. They also feel that teachers believe they are smarter, prefer to be around them more often, and give them more attention unless that attention is negative such as punishment.

More women are encouraged to get into college by their parents than men are, participate in extra-curricular activities, and believe they will be successful. They are largely ahead on standardized tests for verbal and writing skills, and suffer nearly negligible deficits in science and math.

The myth that schoolgirls are shortchanged has deprived boys of a lot of attention they need, and in turn they have fallen behind. Virtually the only areas boys have an advantage in anymore is math/science and sports enrollment. One of the problems is that areas where boys are winning are "problem areas" and when girls overtake them people stop paying attention because it has because "a triumph of gender equity". With the attention and funding so heavily favored to girls, it has allowed boys to fall to the wayside.

Quite funny how I find this to be really true. Majority of the girls in school are horrible working with numbers and cannot think or solve critical problems in a chemistry class for shit but can read/write beautifully.

[Nekio]

young men (teens to young adults) are 4 times more likely to commit suicide then their female counter-parts (it's worth noting though that young women are twice as likely to attempt suicide)

Hells yeah men win again.

[Beckwin]

More women attend college, finish high school, and get better grades. Girls are also more engaged in school, meaning they get there prepared for class, do their homework, and pay attention in class. They also feel that teachers believe they are smarter, prefer to be around them more often, and give them more attention unless that attention is negative such as punishment.

More women are encouraged to get into college by their parents than men are, participate in extra-curricular activities, and believe they will be successful. They are largely ahead on standardized tests for verbal and writing skills, and suffer nearly negligible deficits in science and math.

The myth that schoolgirls are shortchanged has deprived boys of a lot of attention they need, and in turn they have fallen behind. Virtually the only areas boys have an advantage in anymore is math/science and sports enrollment. One of the problems is that areas where boys are winning are "problem areas" and when girls overtake them people stop paying attention because it has because "a triumph of gender equity". With the attention and funding so heavily favored to girls, it has allowed boys to fall to the wayside.

The mind-blowing part is that a lot of these problems can be attributed to traditional patriarchal views. Boys not going to college as much? Meh that's ok, being a bookworm has always been a little faggy, unless it's Engineering or something. They're still playing lots of sports, right? Good. Besides, boys are just naturally rambunctious and become productive men through real-world experiencee that makes them tough; they don't need any extra help or attention in the classroom.

And if a man knocks up a woman, he of course must stop school and start winning that bread (to hell with contraception/abortion or some non-traditional means of supporting a young and unprepared family).

More women are getting educated? Well, they aren't getting proportionally as many jobs (or political positions), so I guess it's okay that they keep themselves busy for a few years until they get hitched and pop out a few babies.

That aside, a lot of the male issues you're talking about here are related to minority issues, in which academic gender gaps among minorities are huge- this is largely attributed to things such as poverty-inspired gang culture and lacking role models. We can also consider other minor influences like population dynamics (less men than women) and the fairly significant number of men (and demand) over women in the enlisted military (typically not college educated) and other professions (mining comes to mind).

Hell, professions where there's a dominant female presence (and oftentimes, dominant unspoken demand) very commonly require higher education.

[Beckwin]

Moral of the story here, folks: feminist ideology seeks to tear down the gender relations that cause significant problems for men as well.

Don't be a 'tard and try to invalidate a whole movement with Welfare Queen-esque anecdotes.

[Vail]

Feminism: the word it's self denotes attention towards women.

I admit MRAs give attention to men's issues, but atleast be honest that feminism is focused on women, not equality(especially so with 3rd wave)

[Kashka]

Do you think that de Beauvoir thinks that no woman should have a child or something? There's a very strong argument for societal restructuring along equitable gender lines, and I think her point is that any society still operating along existing gender relations would de facto be forcing a disproportionate number of women into a domestic life, essentially saying that the "choice" would in too many cases be illusory.

And I'm pretty sure that lots of studies have shown that women do have a lot of self-esteem issues, and that women are severely underrepresented in a range of fields, and so on. I don't really think anyone is just "making stuff up" as you claim (aside from the lady whose quote implies 4 million domestic violence deaths in America- I'd like to see more context on her quote though).

The problem is that de Beauvoir favored an authoritarian stance with government intervention to force women to not do what they wanted and aspired to do. Her point is exactly that women's choice is illusory, and that's what the problem is. What good is the movement to liberate women and give them free choice and opportunity if once they're given it they're just forced to conform to someone else's standard or what is appropriate? It disrespects women's wishes and is intrinsically patronizing and demeaning.

As for the second part, very few studies have shown that women have self-esteem issues, actually. It's just that the ones with radical results get all the publicity. This is even worse when we realize how misleadingly the data has been interpreted in some cases. The biggest one I can think of is the American Association of University Women's (an advocacy group) study which had that organization's conclusions published under the name "Shortchanging Girls, Shortchanging America". The publication of this bill prompted senate action in the form of a 360 million dollar bill, "The Gender Equity in Education Act".

The raw data came from a survey which asked kids questions to mark how true statements like "I am happy the way I am" and "I am good at a lot of things" were for them in the "always" "sort of" etc way. The conclusions the advocacy group put out were based exclusively on the number of kids who answered in the highest tier, "always". This meant that any answer in the other four categories meant that girls had low self-esteem. They treated boys the same way, but it neglected to take into account things like girls coming to maturity faster. When you added up the overall boys and girls responses for both "always" and "sort of" true, they were negligibly different. That report, which again prompted senatorial action, also failed to mention that based on their own methodology African American girls were a little under twice as like to describe themselves as always happy as white boys. This becomes a serious problem when one of the implications of the report was that academic success was directly linked to self-esteem. It also failed to mention that black boys, the group with the absolute highest percent that ticked off always happy, are the ones that do the worst in school.

I apologize if this wasn't wonderfully presented, but if you have some specific queries I can try to address them.

--

It's largely a myth that girls experience huge self-esteem issues. There are differences, like women are more likely to experience depression but also to experience the polar opposite as well. I read somewhere that in a cross study of around 100 different studies, the self-esteems of boys and girls of high school age pretty much averaged out to be the same. Again, it's just that the studies that do bring radical results are just more likely to be paid attention to. No one really wants to report things that people already believe.