People and their gearscore

[Kaylia]

You needed to kill Kirin to get any +movement gear back in the days of early Kirin runs...

And you were 75, not 65.


You don't need movement speed plus to kite kirin, but a lv 65 who attempt kiting won't have any room for error, because he doesnt have the support for it. Considering the fight would take fucking forever (if not forever) with that kind of damage dealt, it's unlikely he will survive.

Siniroth seem to think Kirin fight is easy now because we know how to handle it, but current gears and merit have a lot to do with this. If we went back to 2004 dmg formula, gears, and merit, I don't think kirin with 18 would be as easy as he make it sound, level 65 is just pushing it.

[Plow]

Apparently you people have forgotten (or maybe weren't around) that there was a time when almost every group in Sky consisted of a few 75's and however many 65-74 you could muster.

It wasn't "full alliances" of 65's by any means, but we still got shit done up there with a ton of low levels.

There's a guy that posts around here named Cowk that I remember us almost wiping to Byakko and him picking it up at 65 or 66, and tanking it until the other tanks got unweakened...

And then the haidate dropping and going to one of the "real" tanks... a 72 or 73 nin.


Back then we killed Kirin's mini-gods with spirits within... seriously.

[Izzy]

Apparently you people have forgotten (or maybe weren't around) that there was a time when almost every group in Sky consisted of a few 75's and however many 65-74 you could muster.

It wasn't "full alliances" of 65's by any means, but we still got shit done up there with a ton of low levels.

There's a guy that posts around here named Cowk that I remember us almost wiping to Byakko and him picking it up at 65 or 66, and tanking it until the other tanks got unweakened...

And then the haidate dropping and going to one of the "real" tanks... a 72 or 73 nin.


Back then we killed Kirin's mini-gods with spirits within... seriously.

BOOST@10, INVITE ME!

[Kaylia]

Apparently you people have forgotten (or maybe weren't around) that there was a time when almost every group in Sky consisted of a few 75's and however many 65-74 you could muster.

It wasn't "full alliances" of 65's by any means, but we still got shit done up there with a ton of low levels.

There's a guy that posts around here named Cowk that I remember us almost wiping to Byakko and him picking it up at 65 or 66, and tanking it until the other tanks got unweakened...

And then the haidate dropping and going to one of the "real" tanks... a 72 or 73 nin.


Back then we killed Kirin's mini-gods with spirits within... seriously.

About byakko, you could technically bio kill it given a lot of time (doesnt have any regen), so a lv 55 blm with 40 rr earings could do it. It's definitively more believable than kirin because the mechanics are differents.

Healer can do their job at 65. Blink tank can blinktank at any level, especially if they understand enmity. It's not like a level 65 would be absolutely worthless in a fight (as opposed to a lv 60 in a 80 instance in WoW which is nothing more than a dead weight).

Realistically, a single alliance of 65 isn't like a few "under leveled" job. If you can keep your tank alive reliably, and beat kirin regen, it's obviously doable, but that has yet to be proven that it would be better than a shitty 75 alliance, or even doable with all the damage going on. Aside elemental seal tier 3 and spirit within, you wouldnt have a large damage output going on, and because your tanks are undergeared/under leveled, the party that is "holding" kiring would probably end up taking a large part of your alliance. What DD would you use to kill the remaining god? A bunch of samurai with spirit within could take 1, but that's probably where it would stop.

[Whaleporn]

Yeah, I know what those guys who get GS'ed out of raids would say if they played FFXI, a supremely skill based game.

"Guys Kirin's out of mana, let's down this bitch!"

[Plow]

Aside elemental seal tier 3 and spirit within, you wouldnt have a large damage output going on, and because your tanks are undergeared/under leveled, the party that is "holding" kiring would probably end up taking a large part of your alliance.

That pretty much sums up kirin (and most other end game bosses) for most of 2004 lol.

Except rangers were downright retarded back then, and a 65 ranger was more useful than any other 75 dps... and not really by a small margin.


Kirin would probably be the easiest of any major boss to do back then with an alliance of 65's, you'd just stack rangers and have a few spots for the entire alliance+ people had sitting on minis and swapping in to SW/CB. BLM's would land like 1/10 spells outside ES anyway. The fact that he's a kited mob means the tank level meant very litttle... they'd be in barney set instead of AF, and have some more hp, that's basically it back then. Nin boots came into play at 52, theoretically with whm sub and constant refreshes they could tank him at night at that level lol.

Also rangers were a big part of the kiting back then, striders > anything pld had without killing kirin in the first place.

Shadowbind rotations for the minis, 1 person kiting genbu, not a whole lot more to it.


Meanwhile plenty of groups full of 75's with the same amount of people have wiped to kirin plenty of times over the years.

[Onorgul]

And now I have a headache. It was exactly this kind of, "How can we accomplish something pointless?" discussion that killed what little interest I had remaining in FFXI.

I was having an argument in Icecrown - General (Barrens 3.0) with people claiming that other servers besides Mal'ganis had looser restrictions in terms of GearScore with regards to ICC10 PUGs. An obnoxious Druid kept claiming that he had "done" ICC10 with 4700 GS and deliberately ignored questions like, "And how many bosses did you actually kill?" or "What was the average GS of the people carrying you?" Admittedly, a healer is probably the person that can be most undergeared without causing detriment, since the jump in healing efficiency as one person out of 5 or 6 healers from 4500 GS to 5500 GS is a great deal less than tank survivability or straight DPS, but he kept skirting the fact that encounters in any game are tuned in certain ways.

Can you beat Ozma in FFIX with a bunch of level 1 characters? Apparently, yes, but that kind of insanity should be reserved for single-player situations or, at worst, a couple of friends. When it comes down to wanting not to spend 12 hours kiting Kirin until he blows through his MP pool or actually managing to beat Lord Marrowgar in fewer than 48 attempts, the outrageous limitations one might want to place on the group should be disregarded in the name of simple pragmatism. I mean, there are achievements like Dedicated Insanity that anticipate a limitation on the raid's iLevel and it's not very far above what you need just to do the raid normally. No one in their right mind would want to run ICC with an average iLevel of around 219.

[Kaylia]

Yeah, I know what those guys who get GS'ed out of raids would say if they played FFXI, a supremely skill based game.

"Guys Kirin's out of mana, let's down this bitch!"

Kirin is harder without any mana. Spell are easier to avoid than its ws that hit like a fucking train, and bind you.

Kirin would probably be the easiest of any major boss to do back then with an alliance of 65's, you'd just stack rangers and have a few spots for the entire alliance+ people had sitting on minis and swapping in to SW/CB. BLM's would land like 1/10 spells outside ES anyway. The fact that he's a kited mob means the tank level meant very litttle... they'd be in barney set instead of AF, and have some more hp, that's basically it back then. Nin boots came into play at 52, theoretically with whm sub and constant refreshes they could tank him at night at that level lol.

Also rangers were a big part of the kiting back then, striders > anything pld had without killing kirin in the first place.

Shadowbind rotations for the minis, 1 person kiting genbu, not a whole lot more to it.


Meanwhile plenty of groups full of 75's with the same amount of people have wiped to kirin plenty of times over the years.

The argument was 1 alliance of good player. If we are talking about taking kirin with a large amount of players, it's obviously doable eventually.

Stacking ranger (no weakness, can run fast, their best weapon is low level, more acc...) would probably be your best bet like you said, but still, I havent seen many parsing of what a lv 65 ranger could do in term of damage to kirin back in the day. Their accuracy would be shit, and I wouldnt be surprised if healer had more kiting to do than ranger. Anyway, even if it works given a lot of time, it's very specific and is closer to a loophole than a test of skill and coordination, because there is nothing complex about 11 players spamming the same skills and running when they pull aggro (or at least, not more than any kiting in WoW).


Tank level doesn't mean much, but his max hp does. The hp difference between lv65 and 75 is important for a fight like kiring where bind -> hit could one shot you. With everyone dying faster, mage healing slower (cure 3 or cure 4), I can imagine the fight turning sour with an organized alliance.

[Plow]

It was exactly this kind of, "How can we accomplish something pointless?" discussion that killed what little interest I had remaining in FFXI.

It was the "how can I accomplish something pointless?" stuff that kept me interested in ffxi for a long time lol. Low manning snow zones, jorm, limbus, sky, sea, znm, yada yada yada. Fun stuff.

[Plow]

The argument was 1 alliance of good player. If we are talking about taking kirin with a large amount of players, it's obviously doable eventually.

Bad players don't generally manage kirin with a single alliance of 75's. You have to be reasonably decent.

Let alone if we're talking about 2004.

[Kaylia]

Bad players don't generally manage kirin with a single alliance of 75's. You have to be reasonably decent.

Let alone if we're talking about 2004.

Player on their first time, or bad player? I've seen good players wipe to kirin, and I've seen terrible players follow someone else strategy and manage to pull a kill easily. There is all kind of terrible in FFXI. This argument has too many variables in the first place to argue, and the statement that skill > 10 level gap is still pushing it.

If we take the absolutely worst players in FFXI, then yeah...but we could make the same argument with nearly everything. Most alliance you will encounter won't have 18 deadweight like this, 1 or 2 top, but that's it.

[Plow]

Player on their first time, or bad player? I've seen good players wipe to kirin, and I've seen terrible players follow someone else strategy and manage to pull a kill easily. There is all kind of terrible in FFXI. This argument has too many variables in the first place to argue, and the statement that skill > 10 level gap is still pushing it.

If we take the absolutely worst players in FFXI, then yeah...but we could make the same argument with nearly everything. Most alliance you will encounter won't have 18 deadweight like this, 1 or 2 top, but that's it.

wish I was on that server lol

Anyway yeah what I'm saying is, at least in like 04-06, there really weren't that many groups that could manage Kirin with just 18. Kirin was considered by most players, for most of the peak of the game, to be something you took at least a party extra past 18, if not more. (and still wipes abound lol)

The people that could manage minis with 2 parties (lol cfh anyone?) and kirin with another in those days were the people that figured out later you could 6 man stuff like t4's, U/O, etc.

Hell, in 04, sky teams would typically have full alliances including a few spots that were actually anywhere from 5-10 people switching in and out for a few seconds at a time, on the 4 normal gods.

[Thuronn]

Is this the FFXIV forums now?

[Plow]

I dunno I rather enjoy when we get to have a nice ffxi reminiscing thread with some WoW comparisons without it turning into silly wow vs ffxi flame shit.

[dejet]

Is this the FFXIV forums now?

So it would seem. Anyways wow is more gear based I found that out the 3 months I played it. Ya did not get to far into raids outside a few rl friends but they are people I trust and if they say gear makes the man I trust them. In wow you need both gear and a little skill.

As for the 65kirin kill it can be done I would say. One of our w leg pld went down and a 65 nin kited him for a good time then tanked byoko so I bet it can be done with 2hrs

[Norellicus]

Berserk timers are living proof that gear means something. If they simply wanted people to move out of the fire they'd make the fire near-instant-death and not care how long it took to kill the boss.

That said, I don't disagree gearscore is an abused system that people rely on far too heavily. But if it was banned people are just as likely to go back to latching onto achievements and requiring you to have one before you can join a group, even for new content.

[Eaglestrike]

I dunno I rather enjoy when we get to have a nice ffxi reminiscing thread with some WoW comparisons without it turning into silly wow vs ffxi flame shit.

I think that flamefest only really occurs when there are people who still play FFXI around. I don't think too many of those people read these threads, heh.

[sb]

I won't lie, I check the Gearscores of the people I'm with the second I get into a PUG. Hell I even check my own guildies in our raids. That being said, I take it with a grain of salt, especially whn my 5300's kitty out dps's the 5700-5800's 3 of the 4 fights in the first wing.

Dps comes down to fight mechanics and Blizzards OP Job of the patch. Healing is skill over gear(with the gear helps skill played better thing too). The only role I really want to see with a high Gearscore on is my tanks.

[altwight]

And now I have a headache. It was exactly this kind of, "How can we accomplish something pointless?" discussion that killed what little interest I had remaining in FFXI.

I was having an argument in Icecrown - General (Barrens 3.0) with people claiming that other servers besides Mal'ganis had looser restrictions in terms of GearScore with regards to ICC10 PUGs. An obnoxious Druid kept claiming that he had "done" ICC10 with 4700 GS and deliberately ignored questions like, "And how many bosses did you actually kill?" or "What was the average GS of the people carrying you?" Admittedly, a healer is probably the person that can be most undergeared without causing detriment, since the jump in healing efficiency as one person out of 5 or 6 healers from 4500 GS to 5500 GS is a great deal less than tank survivability or straight DPS, but he kept skirting the fact that encounters in any game are tuned in certain ways.

Can you beat Ozma in FFIX with a bunch of level 1 characters? Apparently, yes, but that kind of insanity should be reserved for single-player situations or, at worst, a couple of friends. When it comes down to wanting not to spend 12 hours kiting Kirin until he blows through his MP pool or actually managing to beat Lord Marrowgar in fewer than 48 attempts, the outrageous limitations one might want to place on the group should be disregarded in the name of simple pragmatism. I mean, there are achievements like Dedicated Insanity that anticipate a limitation on the raid's iLevel and it's not very far above what you need just to do the raid normally. No one in their right mind would want to run ICC with an average iLevel of around 219.

Did my first ICC10 group the other day. Two healers, me(pally) and a priest. My gearscore at the time was 4300, the priest's was 5400. Priest had 2.9k SP where I had 2k SP. Overall healing by me, 53%. Gearscore is retarded.

[Jodwahh]

Shields say what?