What Constitutes a Linkshell as a "HNM Linkshell"

[Gargoyle]

It's these goddamn new kids, they ain't got no respect for us old people who set down the lingo originally. Back in my day there was none of this event shit. We had sky with 6 hour kirins, our ulli's took weeks or months, and then you camped some motherfucking fafnir with 4 PLD/WARs in AF1 and a backup alliance made up of WHMs to heal them and wiped anyway.

Don't forget your aerial armor rotation.

[Despain]

I got into an argument on BG irc about what constitutes a linkshell as an "HNM Linkshell" and was curious what people on BG think. The discussion started after I mentioned that a linkshell on Cerberus was refering to themselves as an HNM ls without claiming any kings, wyrms, or wracking in any other notable world spawn kills. Note that this isn't to say they're not successful at other things in the game such as Limbus, Dynamis, and other instanced or force popped events. The other side of the arguement is that killing mobs such as Kirin, Ouryu, Odin, and Bahamut v2 on a regular basis can count as HNMs and make a linkshells claims to be an HNM linkshell true. So BG, I ask you, when you hear a claim that a LS is an HNM ls, what do you think of?

Didn't read the rest of the thread, so I'll just go ahead and quote OP.

To me, HNM is any linkshell that camps HNMs outside of Kings. A linkshell that claims to be a HNMLS and only does Kings is not a HNMLS in my book :/ considering doing Kings is meh nowadays anyway.

[Theraven]

I think they're interchangeable really. Back in 04/05 all end game shells were known and HNMLS but as the game evolved and end game evolved a lot of the older linkshells stopped doing 3 kings, but continued doing things like Tiamat and the ToAU kings they changed their event/camp schedule. Or they stopped doing those world spawn type mobs and still did Baha v2, ZNM, Einherjar, etc. People still refer to them as HNMLS since that's what they've always been known as, even though they don't do any of the big world spawn HNM's. Where do you draw the line? Does a linkshell have to do RoTZ kings, or can they still be a HNMLS if they only do ToAU Kings and WoTG HNM's? Or what if they're capped on ToAU stuff and only do WoTG mobs? Or no worldspawns? I just refer to them all as HNMLS since that's what I've always called them and always seen them referred to as.

[NervosaEternal]

Shells that do not camp kings or any timed spawned NM in the game would be referred to as an Endgame/Event shell. HNMLS's would be all those and the previous.

[Furionstormrage]

I've always considered an HNMLS to be one that actively camps "world spawn" HNMs such as Tiamat, Khim, Fafhogg, KB, along with doing other endgame events such as Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Sky, Sea, Ouryu/BV2, etc. (Whatever else you feel like throwing in)

An Endgame LS is one that does the instanced/popped events and Sky/Sea, but doesn't camp "world spawns".

Seems like a pretty simple distinction to me, but you'll always have those people that don't consider any LS, no matter how capable they are, to be a "real LS" unless they camp. (Like Eanae, who taunted me in /tell for not camping Tiamat, despite the fact that my LS has never camped any HNMs but has no real problem doing any activity that we attempt)

[Yubar]

HNM to me a ls that actively goes after the three kings, Tiamat, Dark Ixion, and Sandworm. Otherwise, how do I put this, it is a casual ls.

[Beave]

If you do more than sky/dyna, it's an endgame shell. If less than that it's a social shell. Specific event shells also exist for znm/ein whatever I guess would just call those social/event. Pretty much if you're still doing kings, well, it's sad for you -- though it 99% means you are a merc shell that has the best bot on your server. Everyone else does ein for abjs! I'd call ixion/sandworm/khim/tia an HNM shell.

[Therin]

The real question is, do you qualify if you kill Jormungand and Hydra? I mean, by all definitions, these are HNMs. . .

I personally wouldn't consider any linkshell that doesn't actively kill (at least once per month) a contested HNM an HNM LS. Unfortunately, something like KV is still in this category so even if you're camping that, you're technically an HNM LS.

[orson]

This is such a retarded discussion...... Why don't we vote to elect a panel of prominent FFXI players and they can study and define the true meaning of all descriptive word X-LSs!!!!!!

[machiko]

HNMLS just refers to shells that have camping as part of their schedule, it's in no way anything awesome as some seem to think, at least not any more. Killing pretty much any HNM in the game these days is a fairly easy task, watching crappy botting shells take any HNM down is testament to this. In fact the two strongest mobs in the game are force pop now so using the term wrongly doesn't even make that much sense.

[pchan]

A HNM LS is a LS that schedules a NM that can only be defeated by an alliance.

- I said schedules, because even if all you do is camp, "camping" is an event for you and it's scheduled because you don't pop one day in the LS and say "hey guys let's go camp Fafnir !" This is planned from the previous ToD. Just like you plan your next zone for salvage or next Jailer.

- I said Alliance because HnM means "high" notorious monsters. As in harder than other things. If you can 6-man a King, obviously it's not a HnM. Which also means that this definition is subjected to change once people find strategies to "low man" that NM you considered tough.

So what's left ? Pandemonium Warden for sure, others I'm not sure as I'm not doing anything that requires 6+ beside JoL.

[Shamaya]

It's semantics really. Some people use the words "HNM" and "endgame" when describing their linkshell interchangeably.

This. A bit.

I've heard HNM interchangeable with "endgame." It used to be more and more common as you go farther and farther back into FFXI's history. Back in the day about a year or so after NA release, I believe that most endgame shells doing sky and the like could call themselves and HNM shell if they wanted and not really get any/many dirty looks.

These days, an HNM shell is a shell that camps a worldspawn. If you're not competing for claims, you're not an HNM shell. A shell that calls themselves that but doesn't camp means that they're an "endgame shell" and are simply a bit behind on the lingo.

[Eldelphia]

I associate HNM shells with 'shells which don't give a crap and actively encourage botting'... but in answer I think of my shell as an Endgame shell because we do Limbus, Salvage, Dynamis, Einherjar, Sky, Ouryu etc but not as an HNMLS. We don't camp Tiamat/Kings etc although would poke Sandworm if we saw it. DI, the only time I see it is when someone else is killing it.

[Spira]

its been iterated a few times by now.. but the clearest distinction between HNMLS and an end-game event LS is that a HNMLS camp stuff which are usually called HNMs.

The only tricky part about the term HNM is that its definition varies, and can be considered either user-defined or game-defined, or both.. but for practical reasons, i'd say it is best defined as

Free-spawning NMs (those that pop in the open world, non-BC/instance) that are highly sought after for their rewards and possess a difficulty that typically requires at least 1 party to kill.

The list of such NMs change with time, though they've mostly remained constant for a while now..

today, i'd say they include: Fafnir/Nidhogg, KB, Aspid, Tiamat, Cerberus, Khim, DI, SW (altho SW is a special case. it ends with a BC but starts with camping an NM, hence it belongs here. SW itself as a mob isnt a HNM tho) and some say KV.

Popped NM systems (sky, sea, zeni) are not HNM since they're more like events, and can be scheduled accordingly. Same for the rest of the stuff, Limbus, Dynamis, Ein, BCNMs, ANNMs, SNMs, etc.

as for the connotations to the terms, thats a different story

[Khajit]

If you can kill bubbly Bernie without dying you're a pro hnmls.

[Aurara]

If you do more than sky/dyna, it's an endgame shell. If less than that it's a social shell. Specific event shells also exist for znm/ein whatever I guess would just call those social/event. Pretty much if you're still doing kings, well, it's sad for you -- though it 99% means you are a merc shell that has the best bot on your server. Everyone else does ein for abjs! I'd call ixion/sandworm/khim/tia an HNM shell.

camping 3 kings isnt HNM camping. if thats all your ls does, then you're shitty. cause if you're camping 3 kings no reason to not camp the others. HNM shells=DI/SW/Tia/Khim/Cerb/3 Kings on the side. and then events spread throughout all of those.
Edit: took out needless bullshit i've been spewing, apologies.

[lolwut]

Or you could just say "HNM" or "Event" like every other person in the game and not be stubborn ass about it.

Apparently not everyone ass, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[laverna]

This. A bit.

I've heard HNM interchangeable with "endgame." It used to be more and more common as you go farther and farther back into FFXI's history. Back in the day about a year or so after NA release, I believe that most endgame shells doing sky and the like could call themselves and HNM shell if they wanted and not really get any/many dirty looks.

These days, an HNM shell is a shell that camps a worldspawn. If you're not competing for claims, you're not an HNM shell. A shell that calls themselves that but doesn't camp means that they're an "endgame shell" and are simply a bit behind on the lingo.

I think this was the best Explanation. However I think the only grey area to the HNM or End game shell distinction is the ability to kill PW. I think it can go either way.

[Nevex]

If you're not competing for claims, you're not an HNM shell.

Wrong. Times change, interests change. Whether it's a timed spawn, or a trigger spawn, a "High level Notorious Monster" is a "High level Notorious Monster".

Back then Faf/Nid/Aspi/KB were the highest priority of a large number of LSes, now the existance of Odin has put them in the background.

Hauteclaire is no longer the best PLD tanking sword, Cerberus's hides come from ZNM as well, many people can afford Gaiters as well as DI/SW's drops without relying on a LS that camps them since their prices have dropped.
2h buff has made Ridill less important, so D.Ring is the only true item that matters.

Not sure if KV should be considered a HNM or not as a RDM/NIN can hold it for hours, something that a single person won't be able to do with the others.

There are so many more events now that focusing on camping over them is not the wisest choice, even for those LSes who used to almost nothing but camping.

A LS can choose to camp them whenever they want, but even if they do so once or twice a year, their status as "HNMLS" is still there.

Edit: Besides, the definition of "HNM" should be based on the difficulty of the NM itself, not on the means to fight it. Tyger is much more of a HNM than Nidhogg could ever be, just because you don't have to compete with other people (and bots) it doesn't mean it doesn't belong to that list.

[Spira]

i think its because of these minor distinctions that its really hard to categorize what counts as a HNM and what doesnt.

different people have different definitions. none of them are wrong, and none of them are right either.

to me there are a few definitions, the in-game definition, and the player one.

In-game, I count any worldspawn NM that can aoe and damage someone outside the party without any hate a HNM, because they follow different damage rules. In this sense, Nidhogg is a 'HNM' but Fafnir isn't. And of the popped NMs, I think AV and PW follow this condition too, so that makes them special, sort of.

Player-wise, anything that players think is difficult and requires an alliance of 75s to kill could be considered. Difficulty itself is subjective, so some people may think Fafnir is not difficult enough to be a HNM and so on. I'm honestly not sure if demand matters either, because no one camps Vrtra anymore, but at the same time, no one denies it of being a HNM...

Really, HNM is thrown around as a term to mean many different things, so there is some cause for confusion. Like, Tyger as used an example above, is a popped NM and does not have global AoEs without hate. I personally don't think he's considered HNM since he doesn't do that, but some people may think of him as one because he is "difficult enough". I think in these cases, the distinction between 'HNM by technical definition' and 'HNM by difficulty' is often not made. People just call them that because they have no better name to group them.

tl;dr, there really isn't any right or wrong definition of HNM since its a player-based term, but generally speaking most people only consider camped high lv NMs to be HNM. Then again it just depends on who you happen to talk to. So the debate of what is HNM and what is not isn't something you can answer definitively.