France MPs' report backs Muslim face veil ban

[ZarakiKujata]

you can equate this to telling christians 'sorry, you can't wear a cross because it can be used as a deadly weapon'

Except they already do tell Christians this.

[Arvin]

What a shitty country

[aduidarnenye]

Seems silly for Muslim women to wear a full face veils. It's not actually a part of Islam to wear them, it's just a tradition. Doesn't the Koran just ask that all but the hands and face be covered? Even that is silly but religious people will be religious.

[ephel]

Ah so in this thread we support the crazy religion's practice. But yeah France is crazy, they try to ban religion's for not being official when an "official religion" gos against their cultural ideals. Thankfully i am only half french.

[ZarakiKujata]

Ah so in this thread we support the crazy religion's practice. But yeah France is crazy, they try to ban religion's for not being official when an "official religion" gos against their cultural ideals. Thankfully i am only half french.

There is no official religion in France? It's a secular fucking country. Just like the US only we've chosen to become revisionist historians and ignore the whole separation of church and state thing the last 50 some odd years.

[Mizango]

you can equate this to telling christians 'sorry, you can't wear a cross because it can be used as a deadly weapon'

Basically. Funny how people dont understand things like that until you put it in terms they understand. That's a good one that I will most certainly be using, I loathe the anti-Muslim bullshit that comes out of most peoples mouths.

Thanks man.

[Leif]

did you just equate veil wearing with extremism?

No. Let's go back and read.

France suddenly sees Islamic extremism as a threat.

And out of this, you managed to extract the following:

Leif thinks veil wearing is the same as extremism!


That's what the French think you half-brain.

There is no official religion in France? It's a secular fucking country. Just like the US only we've chosen to become revisionist historians and ignore the whole separation of church and state thing the last 50 some odd years.

Magically, "separation of church and state" is something that also isn't in the constitution, the only criteria we have for evaluating whether something is good or bad.

This is extra special considering that as far as I can recall only one Muslim woman has ever been involved in a terror attack and that was in Palestine/Israel within the last 5 years. There was no mention of if she wore the Veil.
er oops sorry. FIGHT THAT EVIL TERRORIST CLOTHING SO THAT ONE DAY WOMEN SHALL ALL PARADE AROUND NAKED! It's the only logical conclusion.
To the muslim women that practice that style of dress this is the western equivalent of women it being mandatory to run around in a thong/panties at public places.

All of the ones that keep trying to fly planes into buildings are all males. The French are just insane, illogical, and silly.

[ephel]

There is no official religion in France? It's a secular fucking country. Just like the US only we've chosen to become revisionist historians and ignore the whole separation of church and state thing the last 50 some odd years.

I know there is no one official religion, but some lesser religions are persecuted for not being one of the larger more mainstream religions. There is a list of accepted religions, thats what i meant as official.

[Leif]

I know there is no one official religion, but some lesser religions are persecuted for not being one of the larger more mainstream religions. There is a list of accepted religions, thats what i meant as official.

This exists in France? I thought Europe was lovely, liberal, and tolerant.

Guess not.

[Zoolander]

In its report, the committee said requiring women to cover their faces was against the French republican principles of secularism and equality.

So requiring them to NOT wear them is better? The whole thing is one massive contradiction. And no one gives a shit if YOU think its silly to wear a face veil, that is irrelevant. I don't care too much, but this is just idiotic on France's part. This is a typical ignorant western move that only furthers the dichotomy between the east and west and angers those extremist Muslims we should all be so afraid of.

[ZarakiKujata]

I know there is no one official religion, but some lesser religions are persecuted for not being one of the larger more mainstream religions. There is a list of accepted religions, thats what i meant as official.

What are the accepted religions? Cause when they first did the headscarf ban it was pointed out that they are not singling out Muslims since yarmulkes/jewish stars and crosses are banned in French schools. Also there are more muslims then non-catholic christians so I don't see how its not a mainstream religion in France? I don't get why everyone has their panties in a twist, secularism has been a part of French governments since the Third Republic, why should they have to change something thats been around for ~160 years. Would you like it if we had to get rid of one of the amendments in the Bill of Rights or the 13-15th amendments because secularism in public life is basically the same for them.

And zoolander like I mentioned earlier, other religions don't get to wear their religion's symbols so its entirely within the French definition of secularism and equality to institute this ban.

[ephel]

This exists in France? I thought Europe was lovely, liberal, and tolerant.

Guess not.

When has Europe ever been lovely and tolerant lol?

[Linliel]

Also don't forget that there are a whole bunch of loonies in Europe atm, Sarkozy, Berlusconi, the guy who just became the Catholic Primate of Belgium, etc. There are lots of underlying problems including the expansion of the EU, terrorist attacks within Europe and people not really knowing how to deal with them, red tape at the EU level for actually making any big decisions about things, etc. I've been here only 6 months and it's very plain that there are lots of stupid undercurrents that are allowing severe racism and xenophobia take over some countries.

ETA: That's not to say that Europe is a shit hole or anything, for the most part most people are really awesome and it's just SOME out-of-touch governments that are actually imposing this sort of thing. In these places racism etc. is becoming institutionalised and it really puts the rest of Europe to shame.

[Kerberoz]

I really don't see a problem with:

schools, hospitals, public transport and government offices

It's not as if they're banned in the entire country. Many places don't allow masks to be worn in public buildings. Why should religion get a free pass?

french people are retarded. i had a shitty experience with a connecting flight in their airport and they were complete assholes.

wow, me too. CDG is the shittiest airport ever. also had deaf people trying to make me buy shit.

[ZarakiKujata]

terrorist attacks within Europe and people not really knowing how to deal with them

I think the problem there is that the Islamic population of Europe isn't assimilated which is the root cause of the problem. Europe does not know how to assimilate their Islamic populations and instead of incentivizing them economically to do so like the US has so successfully done with countless other immigrants they either ignore them by keeping their ghettoes isolated, ala French banlieues or make endless idiotic concessions like allowing state funded madrassahs in England in the hopes that this will open them up towards their new host countries instead of helping them entrench themselves in their isolation.

I wouldn't throw in Sarkozy with Berlusconi... One wants to be the next Mussolini and has a death grip on the Italian Media, the other is a very astute politician who knows how to keep his socialist opposition in shambles and govern from what I would consider the center (by french standards at least). However, the conservative parties of Europe seem to be the only ones willing to truly address this issue, even if their motivations are less then stellar and a bit racist. But I doubt any reform that is needed will likely happen in the near future across Europe mainly because all these conservative parties are either themselves Christian or in coalitions with Christian parties so they can not enact any reforms across all religions without pissing off their own base or the left wing opposition by focusing only on Muslims.

edit: Also don't lie Europe is a shithole, whole place is nothing but pickpocketing gypsie thieves who will stop at nothing to steal from you on a train, on a place or in the rain. On the otherhand central Europe has some of the best beer I've ever had....

Also absinthe.

edit2: the Islamification of Europe has resulted in some awesome street foods in the cities I've been in though so that's cool.

[ephel]

What are the accepted religions? Cause when they first did the headscarf ban it was pointed out that they are not singling out Muslims since yarmulkes/jewish stars and crosses are banned in French schools. Also there are more muslims then non-catholic christians so I don't see how its not a mainstream religion in France? I don't get why everyone has their panties in a twist, secularism has been a part of French governments since the Third Republic, why should they have to change something thats been around for ~160 years. Would you like it if we had to get rid of one of the amendments in the Bill of Rights or the 13-15th amendments because secularism in public life is basically the same for them.

And zoolander like I mentioned earlier, other religions don't get to wear their religion's symbols so its entirely within the French definition of secularism and equality to institute this ban.

here is one example from wiki, in this case they wanted to tax 60% from a nonprofit religion. So in order to justify it they were no longer recognized as a religion.

"France
See also: Jehovah's Witnesses and governments (France)

Even before the beginning of World War II, the French government banned the Association of Jehovah’s Witnesses in France and ordered that the French offices of the Watch Tower Society be vacated.[6]

After the war, Jehovah's Witnesses in France renewed their operations. In December 1952, France's Minister of the Interior banned The Watchtower magazine, citing its position on military service.[7] The ban was lifted on November 26, 1974.[8][9]

In the 1990s and 2000s, the French government included Jehovah's Witnesses on its list of "cults", and governmental ministers made derogatory public statements about Jehovah's Witnesses.[10] Despite its century of activity in the country, France's Ministry of Finance had long opposed official governmental recognition of the religion; it was not until June 23, 2000 that France's highest administrative court, the Council of State, ruled that Jehovah's Witnesses qualify as a religion under French law.[11] France's Ministry of the Interior has sought to collect 60% of donations made to the religion's entities; Witnesses have called the taxation "confiscatory" and have appealed to the European Court of Human Rights.[12][13]

In recent years, Jehovah's Witnesses in France have reported hundreds of criminal attacks against their adherents and places of worship.[14]"

[ZarakiKujata]

nonprofit religion

I lol'd
Also I think I would agree with the French government, any religion that has its adherents bothering me at 6am on a Saturday is a cult.

edit: I think you are blowing this out of proportion:

"A list of 172 sectarian movements (totalizing 400,000 adepts) has been published ; among them the most known are the Church of Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, Rael, Heavens Love, Reverend Moon, Transcendental Meditation (maharishi)."

Most of those movements are recognized as goofy cults by most of the west and the French Governments criteria for banning these 'sectes' seems reasonable, Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrination of children(true of any religion but w/e) along with disturbing public order both qualify

* Mental destabilisation
* Excessive financial demands
* Cut-off from personal environment
* Harm to physical integrity
* Indoctrination of children
* More or less anti-social declarations
* Perturbation of public order
* Numerous court cases
* Not involved in the economic circuit
* Attempts to infiltrate public authorities

[ephel]

I lol'd
Also I think I would agree with the French government, any religion that has its adherents bothering me at 6am on a Saturday is a cult.

6am lol

[ZarakiKujata]

6am lol

That's what Jehovah's Witnesses do here. Also while I'm away at school and my grandma is the only person in the house during the day she always is nice to them and other religious nutjobs and for whatever reason tells them to come back another day and drop off their comic books/pamphlets. Said people always seem to come back when I'm home alone during break and bother me then

[ephel]

Most of those movements are recognized as goofy cults by most of the west and the French Governments criteria for banning these 'sectes' seems reasonable, Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrination of children(true of any religion but w/e) along with disturbing public order both qualify

So indoctrinating children is done by every religion, but if a JW does it then its worse? I'd love for you to show me how they fit all those points that show a cult, pm me if you want.

To be honest most of the persecution from around the world is from JW's not participating in politics and military.