France MPs' report backs Muslim face veil ban

[ZarakiKujata]

So indoctrinating children is done by every religion, but if a JW does it then its worse? I'd love for you to show me how they fit all those points that show a cult, pm me if you want.

To be honest most of the persecution from around the world is from JW's not participating in politics and military.

Did not say all, I listed the two that I think are most applicable to them; disturbing public order and indoctrination of kids. I didn't mean that its worse if JW does it was just making an offhand remark that imo every religion does so, but even losing that point I think the case for JW as a cult is still okay. Also, not sure where it would apply best but the refusal of blood transfusions could be crossapplied to a few of them.

[ephel]

Did not say all, I listed the two that I think are most applicable to them; disturbing public order and indoctrination of kids. I didn't mean that its worse if JW does it was just making an offhand remark that imo every religion does so, but even losing that point I think the case for JW as a cult is still okay. Also, not sure where it would apply best but the refusal of blood transfusions could be crossapplied to a few of them.

I honestly don't understand the disturbing public order, what does that mean again and how do they fit it.

And do some research on the advancement of bloodless surgeries/care, amazing read.

[ZarakiKujata]

I honestly don't understand the disturbing public order, what does that mean again and how do they fit it.

And do some research on the advancement of bloodless surgeries/care, amazing read.

There are still certain illnesses or traumatic injuries which will require emergency transfusion of blood. And I take disturbing public order to be breach of peace or disturbing the peace (legal terms) which their soliciting at all hours of the day certainly is

[willriker]

This is the first time ive ever seen this list, but ill run with it. Yeah, im going there.

* Mental destabilisation
* Excessive financial demands
* Cut-off from personal environment
* Harm to physical integrity
* Indoctrination of children
* More or less anti-social declarations
* Perturbation of public order
* Numerous court cases
* Not involved in the economic circuit
* Attempts to infiltrate public authorities

As it pertains to JW's:

* Excessive financial demands

Donations, Some are good some and some are standard for all religions. But, The lack of celebrating most holidays certainly eases the burden of the donations. However the lack of celebrating holidays is also reflected below in a negative light.

* Cut-off from personal environment

Being in the company of people outside of JW is definately shown in a negative light. People outside of JW are shown to be negative influences, especialy if they are celebrating holidays (doesnt even need to be religious holidays). In addition, I dont see how one can agrue that pressuring others to convert those who not involved with JW does not cut one off from thier personal interactions with others. Furthermore, i am sure that refusing certain medical treatments to people has burned quite a few relationships with others in the past.

* Harm to physical integrity

The medical prohibitions placed on JW's is well established. While JW's to not require you to cut yourself, or purposefully inflict pain on yourself, it does require that a member refuses certain medical treatments. I would argue that this be consired to be inflicting harm to ones physical integrity. By the same token it also prevents one from donating to another, in a medical sence of the word.

* Indoctrination of children

This is the same with all major religions, it really shouldnt be put on the list. I guess it is there just for completions sake.

* More or less anti-social declarations

Declaring that you must convert others to JW, while only a certain (predifined number), of people can be saved is anti-social. To attempt an analogy, it would be like the host of a kegger bringing a keg to a party and telling everyone there is only enough for 10 people. In addition, not celebrating occasions with others is anti-social as well. I dont see how one can argue that this can be considered to be social.

* Perturbation of public order

Solicitization.

* Numerous court cases

There are many court cases brought by grandparents and/or spouses of JW's insisting that children gain medical attention prohibited by this religion. One cannot ignore that. In addition there are many court cases against JW's that repeatidly court people.

* Not involved in the economic circuit

To my knowledge, it does not apply.

* Attempts to infiltrate public authorities

This is true of all religions. All religions actively persue religious influence. Some attempt to mask this under the guise of a persons choices are dictated by what they believe in. But, i am unsure of any offical JW doctrine which attemps to actively place JW's in key political positions.

[ZarakiKujata]

This is the first time ive ever seen this list, but ill run with it. Yeah, im going there.

* Harm to physical integrity

The medical prohibitions placed on JW's is well established. While JW's to not require you to cut yourself, or purposefully inflict pain on yourself, it does require that a member refuses certain medical treatments. I would argue that this be consired to be inflicting harm to ones physical integrity. By the same token it also prevents one from donating to another, in a medical sence of the word.

It was a list I found after googling france/religion when ephel brought up the JW persecution in France, this criteria is what they used when they removed tax exemption from Scientology etc. I agree with most of your points but with this one I think its as much harm to others as harm to yourself, in this case the strongest argument against JW here imo is preventing a sick child from the proper medical care b/c of the religious prohibitions.

[Sepukku]

I'm not suprised to see this move by the French - they're very secular, as has been said, but keep in mind we're talking about the cradle of the Enlightenment. In addition, its the right of the people of a country to govern themselves however they see fit. If a barbaric, oppressing leader enforces an undesired policy on people, its bad, but if the majority of the citizens want to see this measure passed, who are we to say no? If Canada wants to ban soda drinks, and that is the will of the people there - to pursure a more healthy dietary menu country-wide, then they are free to make that decision for themselves.

[Kuya]

In practice though, the will of the people doesn't mean shit unless it's conveniant to somebody important.

[ephel]

As it pertains to JW's:

* Excessive financial demands

Donations, Some are good some and some are standard for all religions. But, The lack of celebrating most holidays certainly eases the burden of the donations. However the lack of celebrating holidays is also reflected below in a negative light.

Donations are a private matter. There is a donation box in each kingdom hall, records are not kept to who has donated what so there is little pressure to donate. Not sure what the holiday stigma is, Jews don't celebrate Christmas, is it an unfair burden against them?

* Cut-off from personal environment

Being in the company of people outside of JW is definately shown in a negative light. People outside of JW are shown to be negative influences, especialy if they are celebrating holidays (doesnt even need to be religious holidays). In addition, I dont see how one can agrue that pressuring others to convert those who not involved with JW does not cut one off from thier personal interactions with others. Furthermore, i am sure that refusing certain medical treatments to people has burned quite a few relationships with others in the past.

"Bad association spoils usefull habits" Parents in all cultures warn their kids about hanging out with others who may be bad influences. And again with the holidays, why do people want to push their holidays on everyone. A holiday is either going to be religious or nationalistic and not everyone will want to take part.

* Harm to physical integrity

The medical prohibitions placed on JW's is well established. While JW's to not require you to cut yourself, or purposefully inflict pain on yourself, it does require that a member refuses certain medical treatments. I would argue that this be consired to be inflicting harm to ones physical integrity. By the same token it also prevents one from donating to another, in a medical sence of the word.

Blood is the ONLY medical treatment not used, stop saying multiple. It's blood, plain and simple. And even though it is a purely religious point, however recent history has shown the great benefits of not using blood(bloodless heart transplants now). Also there are many blood alternatives, from blood expanders, cell salvage, blood fractions.

* Indoctrination of children

This is the same with all major religions, it really shouldnt be put on the list. I guess it is there just for completions sake.

A religious person teaches his kid about the god, and evolutionist teaches his kid about darwin, a pagan teaches his kid about mother earth. A parent inculcates some type of belief to their kid, whether they realize or not.

* More or less anti-social declarations

Declaring that you must convert others to JW, while only a certain (predifined number), of people can be saved is anti-social. To attempt an analogy, it would be like the host of a kegger bringing a keg to a party and telling everyone there is only enough for 10 people. In addition, not celebrating occasions with others is anti-social as well. I dont see how one can argue that this can be considered to be social.

Early Israelites were told to convert, early christians were told to convert, modern day christians were told to convert. Again you have your facts a little off which is understandable. There is no predefined number saved, most will be suprised to find out who are expected to survive the end.

* Numerous court cases

There are many court cases brought by grandparents and/or spouses of JW's insisting that children gain medical attention prohibited by this religion. One cannot ignore that. In addition there are many court cases against JW's that repeatidly court people.

This is such a broad statement since every group has been involved in court, so i don't see it as a reason for a cult. However i won't dismiss it.

* Not involved in the economic circuit

To my knowledge, it does not apply.

* Attempts to infiltrate public authorities

This is true of all religions. All religions actively persue religious influence. Some attempt to mask this under the guise of a persons choices are dictated by what they believe in. But, i am unsure of any offical JW doctrine which attemps to actively place JW's in key political positions.

JW's are in no way involved in politics. No positions taken, no voting on matters. So it is not true of all religions.

[willriker]

... here i go, i am sorry to all else who dont care. Just skip over it.

Donations are a private matter. There is a donation box in each kingdom hall, records are not kept to who has donated what so there is little pressure to donate. Not sure what the holiday stigma is, Jews don't celebrate Christmas, is it an unfair burden against them?

birthdays. Pretty much every social event that can be considered a holiday can be tacked on that list. So, i wont bother making a full list.



[QUOTE=ephel;3432760]"Bad association spoils usefull habits" Parents in all cultures warn their kids about hanging out with others who may be bad influences. And again with the holidays, why do people want to push their holidays on everyone. A holiday is either going to be religious or nationalistic and not everyone will want to take part.
Blood is the ONLY medical treatment not used, stop saying multiple. It's blood, plain and simple. And even though it is a purely religious point, however recent history has shown the great benefits of not using blood(bloodless heart transplants now). Also there are many blood alternatives, from blood expanders, cell salvage, blood fractions.[/qoute]

I Keep bringing up the holidays as it is evidence that JW doctrine inhibits personal interactions and encourages anti-social behaviors by obliterating the avenues in which it is expressed. These were two criteria listed by France to determine what a cult is. I am simply pointing out how JW doctrine clearly falls into these two catagories.

And, despite current technological advances in bloodless surgeries official JW doctrine, as indicated by www.WatchTower.org, still cause JW to fall into the catagory of causing physical harm. This is for three reasons, ill run with your bloodless heart transplant to illustrate.

Firstly, congrats on being able to have 'bloodless' heart transplants. But, what about blood that is still in the heart from the previous owner. Its not like you can scrub a heart completely free of all blood before a transplant. Despite what youve read, it physicaly impossible to irradicate every particle of blood from a heart prior to transplant.

Secondly, heart transplants have been around for a while now. Before 'bloodless' transplants, a JW would not be able to recieve any transplant whatsoever. This definately caused many deaths due to refusal of treatment. By the by, i am sure you know what happens to people who disobeyed official JW doctrine in favor of... living.

Lastly, there is a huge number of procedures that you simply cannot get away from using blood for, not yet. What happens if you go against JW doctrine in favor of one of those life saving procedures again?

A religious person teaches his kid about the god, and evolutionist teaches his kid about darwin, a pagan teaches his kid about mother earth. A parent inculcates some type of belief to their kid, whether they realize or not.

I said that i didnt even know why this was on the list, its probably just on there for completions sake. Non issue.

Early Israelites were told to convert, early christians were told to convert, modern day christians were told to convert. Again you have your facts a little off which is understandable. There is no predefined number saved, most will be suprised to find out who are expected to survive the end.

Jesus never told anyone to convert. Christianity might have, but not Jesus. Catholicism, and Christianity, did not even come into being until well after Jesus's death. At anyrate, it seems you missed the reason why i mentioned this. By the by, BG has a tradition of being highly critical of religion. Doesnt JW doctrine prevent its members from going to places critical of such things? The WTS, watch tower website seems to indicate that.

Onto the whole being missinformed bit about who makes it to paradise. I am sorry for being missinformed. But you gotta admit that it is a bit easy to be missinformed when in one ear you are told that you not only need to be a baptized JW actively working hard to spread gods word in order to be saved. then with the other ear you hear that after armegedon, all will be ressurected.

Here is another critic i found from http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.c...us.html?page=1, "My question was the same, and I asked my PO later that week in field service. "I don't understand. If everyone pays for their sins with their death, then when we die the slate is wiped clean! And we're all coming back anyway! So I don't mean to sound like I don't like the preaching work, but why is Jesus asking us to do this IF HE'S JUST GOING TO RESURRECT EVERYONE ANYWAY? Why would he make us spin our wheels like this?"

His answer "Honestly, I've wondered about that alot, too. I really don't know the answer. I just keep on keeping on, knowing it pleases Jehovah." "

This is such a broad statement since every group has been involved in court, so i don't see it as a reason for a cult. However i won't dismiss it.

I wouldnt dismiss it either, as some of those court cases sure to shed an unflattering light on JW.

JW's are in no way involved in politics. No positions taken, no voting on matters. So it is not true of all religions.

Um, your gonna tell me that JW's do not turn to the gospil for every answer to lifes questions? The Watchtower.org has a wonderful article about genetically modified food that you might want to check out. Oh well ill quote it.

Others, Prince Charles of England included, argue that transferring genes between utterly unrelated species "takes us into the realms that belong to God, and to God alone." Students of the Bible firmly believe that God "is the source of life." (Psalm 36:9) However, there is no real evidence that God disapproves of the selective breeding of animals and plants, something that has helped our planet to sustain the billions of people living on it. Only time will tell if modern biotechnology will harm humans and the environment. If biotechnology really does encroach upon "the realms that belong to God," then—out of love and concern for humankind—he can reverse such developments.

If it stands to reason that the bible is a viable resourse to look for an opinion about geneticaly modified fruit, how am i suposed to believe that JW's do not consider the bible to be a viable resourse for an opinion on the important political issues of the day? I wouldnt fool yourself by saying that JW's do not turn to the bible for such issues on Gay Rights, Health Care, and other type programs.

And, i wouldnt try to fool yourself into thinking that the opinions of the watch tower are not reflected in the average JW's voting habits.

[ephel]

I Keep bringing up the holidays as it is evidence that JW doctrine inhibits personal interactions and encourages anti-social behaviors by obliterating the avenues in which it is expressed. These were two criteria listed by France to determine what a cult is. I am simply pointing out how JW doctrine clearly falls into these two catagories.

And i keep bringing up holidays because JW's don't want to celebrate secular, nationalistic, and religious holidays. They use the local bus system, go to public schools, visit other countries, have family and friends that are not witnesses. If not celebrating others holidays is a reason then yes they do fit under that criteria for a cult.

And, despite current technological advances in bloodless surgeries official JW doctrine, as indicated by www.WatchTower.org, still cause JW to fall into the catagory of causing physical harm. This is for three reasons, ill run with your bloodless heart transplant to illustrate.

Firstly, congrats on being able to have 'bloodless' heart transplants. But, what about blood that is still in the heart from the previous owner. Its not like you can scrub a heart completely free of all blood before a transplant. Despite what youve read, it physicaly impossible to irradicate every particle of blood from a heart prior to transplant.

Again the no use of blood is purely a scriptural matter, the good and bad effects have nothing to do with it. I was just showing the alternative methods and how most doctors today realize bloodless surgeries are worthwhile.

Even when you eat meat, you don't get all the blood out. This is known, and is a moot point when it comes to surgeries also.

Secondly, heart transplants have been around for a while now. Before 'bloodless' transplants, a JW would not be able to recieve any transplant whatsoever. This definately caused many deaths due to refusal of treatment. By the by, i am sure you know what happens to people who disobeyed official JW doctrine in favor of... living.

I'm sure that some of died for their beliefs, like man has done in every culture and religion. Atheist and Religious people have died in wars based on their belief to fight for their country. Were they viewed antisocial for letting their kids go possibly get killed?

Even in the 70's, i believe there were only 1 million baptized JW's, over 7 million now. Now break that down to how many needed blood when bloodless solution were available, very small numbers.

Lastly, there is a huge number of procedures that you simply cannot get away from using blood for, not yet. What happens if you go against JW doctrine in favor of one of those life saving procedures again?

It doesn't matter, again its a scriptural matter. In this case beliefs > life. With some people its family > life, work > life, ff > life. I will break down the disfellowshipping as simply as possible.

If a JW makes a decision against what is considered a scriptural matter, they are counseled and either decide to keep doing what they want or what they original agreed to under baptism(there is no baby baptism, you get baptized when you are older and understand what it means). If they want to do what they want, they are disfellowshipped. This is not an eternal damnation, and they can still go to meetings. And if they want to come back they can, an exJW stays that way because they want to, not because they are not allowed back.

You bring up blood, and i've known some who taken blood, and some who were forced to take. It's easy to say you believe something until you are worried you might die. They were never disfellowshipped.

Jesus never told anyone to convert. Christianity might have, but not Jesus. Catholicism, and Christianity, did not even come into being until well after Jesus's death. At anyrate, it seems you missed the reason why i mentioned this. By the by, BG has a tradition of being highly critical of religion.

That is matter of debate, Jesus spent his last years teaching others about God. The apostle paul and the early congregations are in the bible, and the congregations grew during that time so at some point other became believers. Maybe convert is not the right word.

We should be highly critical of everything. i 100% agree with this even with religion.

Onto the whole being missinformed bit about who makes it to paradise. I am sorry for being missinformed. But you gotta admit that it is a bit easy to be missinformed when in one ear you are told that you not only need to be a baptized JW actively working hard to spread gods word in order to be saved. then with the other ear you hear that after armegedon, all will be ressurected.

I find it hard for a JW to tell you that you had to be a baptized to have a future, but of course i wasn't there. And no they dont believe that everyone, but yes a great amount.

Here is another critic i found from http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.c...us.html?page=1, "My question was the same, and I asked my PO later that week in field service. "I don't understand. If everyone pays for their sins with their death, then when we die the slate is wiped clean! And we're all coming back anyway! So I don't mean to sound like I don't like the preaching work, but why is Jesus asking us to do this IF HE'S JUST GOING TO RESURRECT EVERYONE ANYWAY? Why would he make us spin our wheels like this?"

While there are no exacts, there are those who are said not to have the paradise or heavenly hope. I havn't really been providing scriptures because most here dont believe in the bible, but i can if wanted. In the meantime, maybe to just be better people while we are still here? Imagine a world where people didnt learn war, respected their neighbor, and actually lived by good morals. Most will laugh this off, but isn't that where we want man to head too? Even evolutionist think we will evolve to be better.

His answer "Honestly, I've wondered about that alot, too. I really don't know the answer. I just keep on keeping on, knowing it pleases Jehovah." "

They don't know everything, but they do wanna please their god. They pay taxes, try not to break the laws. However they won't go to your birthday and yes they decided for themselves that they wont take blood.

I wouldnt dismiss it either, as some of those court cases sure to shed an unflattering light on JW.

Not saying you haven't but have you researched these cases, if you have not then you really can't say the overall light it puts on them.

Um, your gonna tell me that JW's do not turn to the gospil for every answer to lifes questions? The Watchtower.org has a wonderful article about genetically modified food that you might want to check out. Oh well ill quote it.



If it stands to reason that the bible is a viable resourse to look for an opinion about geneticaly modified fruit, how am i suposed to believe that JW's do not consider the bible to be a viable resourse for an opinion on the important political issues of the day? I wouldnt fool yourself by saying that JW's do not turn to the bible for such issues on Gay Rights, Health Care, and other type programs.

Don't they summarize that there is nothing wrong with eating it, and if someday God feels something needs to be done it will. They are religious and they believe in the Bible, so yes they live their lives a certain way. i hope you read this part, i know this becoming longwindedGuess what, the antigay bans all over the world, guess who wasnt the lawmaker or who voted on it. JW's don't hold office or vote. Antiabortion laws, guess who didn't make or endorse them. Health care? There might someday be a antiblood law, but guess who didn't write or vote for it.

And, i wouldnt try to fool yourself into thinking that the opinions of the watch tower are not reflected in the average JW's voting habits.

They don't vote, they don't vote. Say it with me, they don't vote. Not every country in Africa and i can find the specifics, but JW's are persecuted because they wont buy a 5 dollar id to allign themselves to certain political groups. They don't vote.

[Jakson]

At the beginning of 2008 or 2009 (I don't remember) the Watchtower organization changed their policy of no blood transfusions to a personal matter - meaning it's between you and your conscience. Obviously, this matters when parents make decisions for their kids, which is still kind of weird, but doesn't matter to me because I'm no longer a JW and would not restrict blood transfusions to/from my son. As far as religions go, I don't know much about a lot of them, but I will say that JWs seem the least crazy.

Also, gtfo with this "They bother me at 6am" shit. They aren't supposed to preach throughout all the nations until 9am (earlier in public places, like Rest Stops or college campuses), so if they are knocking at your door earlier, then it's an example of a, shall we say, overzealous patron of that church. If that is the worst thing that comes about JWs affecting non-JWs then you should be glad all the people bent on being some sort of christian that chose to be a JW did so. Saying all JWs are annoying because it happened to you twice ten years ago is like saying every crazy christian is indicative of their entire particular branch of religion, every suicide bomber is indicative of every member of Islam, etc.

Anyway, rerail, Veils being banned, kinda retarded, but ok. At least it's only in publicly owned buildings.

[Elvis]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-incident.html

[Kuya]

Muslims sure are violent.

[Khajit]

It occurs to me that under "authoritarian" Muslim husbands that they can simply get around the ban by not letting the women out of the kitchen.

[Acturus]

It occurs to me that under "authoritarian" Muslim husbands that they can simply get around the ban by not letting the women out of the kitchen.

If only all husbands were so lucky.

[Rhinox]

late to the party but I chuckle when Muslims claim this is an affront to their religion.


Maybe a BG Muslim can help me out here. Why do when have to wear rags and veils on their head?

Edit: found this on wiki

Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam).
The Quran has been translated as stating: "O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments (jilbabs) close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle." [3].
Another verse in the Quran is translated as: "And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful" [4]

You know... Unless you're born into it or are a secular Muslim here in the states why would a woman want to be a Muslim.

[Khajit]

late to the party but I chuckle when Muslims claim this is an affront to their religion.


Maybe a BG Muslim can help me out here. Why do when have to wear rags and veils on their head?

Edit: found this on wiki





You know... Unless you're born into it or are a secular Muslim here in the states why would a woman want to be a Muslim.

Wahabiism again. All of the veils and whatnot only started being worn 50~60 years ago with the rise of wahabiism. Basically mainstream Islam(without the mandatory veils, constant Jihad and whatnot) was loyal to the ottoman empire so after Britain had it dismantled by the Palestinians(in exchange for Palestine which didn't go so well for them.)
The new leaders decided to pick the guys least loyal to the old bosses aka the Muslim version of the westboro baptist church which the Ottoman empire had tried to eradicate because they were batshit insane as the spiritual leaders to ally themselves with. Mainstream Islam also had the possibility of forming a Coup since the rest of the ruling classes had been removed so depowering them was the first concern of the new leaders.

[NynJa]

I dont care about wtf france is doing or any of that...I cant stand immigrants who want to move to a new country but want to take all their religious practices with them. If you want to move to Canada, act like you're in Canada, you're not in Islam. If you dont like it, leave.

[Kuya]

act like you're in Canada, you're not in Islam

lol

[Ksandra]

I dont care about wtf france is doing or any of that...I cant stand immigrants who want to move to a new country but want to take all their religious practices with them. If you want to move to Canada, act like you're in Canada, you're not in Islam. If you dont like it, leave.

While I actually agree that when you are MOVING to a country you should follow the rules they have in place. That doesn't account for people that moved to France PRIOR to the law being in place, and not wanting the law to be made.

This may come as a shock to you, but there were/are plenty of Muslims that came to France prior to 2010.