Member motivation in "Leader gets all" LS

[wop]

wopa was also known to engage in a lot of RMT activies, i'm not sure how many pairs of gaiters he sold on EGS but it was a significant number. dunno if he bought gil or not but i know he sold gaiters

I used to browse EGS on a daily basis (and post famous toons that's being RMT'd on forums, playing the "Guess who this is" game).

But then again, I do not have any EGS account, even till this day lol...

After over a year of being LM17'd, I will come clean. All gaiters were sold on Pande.

Hell, even Leif from SapareAude transfered over to Pande to buy my gaiters! All transactions were recorded and frapsed.
Loldaak. How many accounts have you got banned here on BG? Go away you RMT scamming scum.

Must we go through this again daak? lol find me a single post on EGS regarding gaiters sale for me that somehow is linked. I'm really curious on how you come to that conclusion, that I myself don't even know I've been RMTing gaiters!

I did associate myself with gilfarmers on Pande though. That's because I can speak Chinese, and they supply me with nice Amity capes to skill up!

[machiko]

wopa was also known to engage in a lot of RMT activies, i'm not sure how many pairs of gaiters he sold on EGS but it was a significant number. dunno if he bought gil or not but i know he sold gaiters

If you were in a shell that was making so much gil you have multiple relics and more gil than you could possibly spend can you honestly say you wouldn't sell some off to get money irl? There are many shells that do it solely for this purpose so.. lol. stupid retarded devs are to blame for allowing shells to monopolise stuff

[wop]

^ QQ moar

[Byrthnoth]

Hell, even Leif from SapareAude transfered over to Pande to buy my gaiters! All transactions were recorded and frapsed.

I remember that. I think he got Roundel earring in the same trip maybe. For 11mil or whatever you were asking I was considering transferring a mule over as well.

[Biggie]

wow, I'm not an active player anymore, and have not been for the last several months. Before i quit, i was in pers. Did not have much experience with them, but what i can say is Dioma seems to be more concerned with getting his members what they want, more than himself.

I also see nothing much has changed since 2005 with you Nyn, still trolling forums and talking shit about eveyone else on Gilgameh. Do everyone else on Gilgamesh a favor and just quit, or please oh please just SHUT THE FUCK up...

thanks...

[Mojo]

There is some truth to the original post. Leaders typically get more loot than other members for the time that they invest. This isn't always due to greed, it's more often a biproduct of how the point systems are worked out (again, people don't necessarily plan on this happening.) Even in this thead you can see some obvious examples. There is a poster who stated that they had somewhere around 7000 points in their linkshell and that there were many other members close behind. It's a clear example of a situation where more points are going into the linkshell then going out. When this happens, loot begins to favor veteran members over time. They benefit the most from the point inflation because they earn the most points.

If you have trouble understanding this, let me hyperbolize it for you. Let's say you get 1,000,000 points for attending a single event. All items cost 1 point. The people who have attended every event would thus be able to lot on every item and get as much loot as they want without it affecting their chances of someone who was just one event behind them.

I used to think that the 'ideal' system would be a perfect balance between points going in and points going out (or any other orchestration of a perfect harmony between the work you put in and what you get out.) However, my view on this has changed over time. Having the loot slightly favor veteran members is healthy because if the loot distribution is perfectly balanced, veteran members will lose interest after they've gotten a few key items that they want. You need to keep those members in your LS because they're the most knowledgeable and best geared, they pull more weight than other people anyways so they should be rewarded in that aspect. I guess you could see it as some sort of pay gradient that's typical in any sort of organization.

Anyways, that's all in theory. There are lots of other factors that come up that can work against your perfect linkshell plan. But again, usually this is the reason that veteran members get more loot than other members. I don't think leaders plan it out, they usually try and be fair to their members, it's just impossible to plan a system that's perfectly equal and that won't build up some sort of bias over time. If the bias didn't favor veteran members then nobody would stay in the linkshell, so that's why it typically ends up working that way.

However, there are some cases of selfish leaders who make the rules with high bias in them. These linkshells typically suck, are led by morons, and don't last that long or are constantly cycling through new members. Avoid those linkshells at all costs. I wouldn't say that Excellence is one of these linkshells by any means. Stanislav does have a lot of loot, but he has been leading the LS and attending the events for YEARS. You're comparing him to members who have been there for only a fraction of that time, which is why he has so much more gear than other people.

[Dooom]

I think it's worth re-iterating the point someone made about "respecting" drops, or under-bidding because you know someone else wants it, and you want them to get it first either because they've worked hard for the LS, waited a long time, or whatever. Letting a leader bid one point on W legs and not competing with it because the guy is always on time with points updates and pay-outs, listens to people, etc. etc. probably happens fairly often amongst decent shells, especially long-running ones where members have some sort of bond, rather than being the ffxi version of co-workers.

[pchan]

Get one LS/group/static per event, this limits the risks to get fucked. We're not in wow.

[Mojo]

I think it's worth re-iterating the point someone made about "respecting" drops, or under-bidding because you know someone else wants it, and you want them to get it first either because they've worked hard for the LS, waited a long time, or whatever. Letting a leader bid one point on W legs and not competing with it because the guy is always on time with points updates and pay-outs, listens to people, etc. etc. probably happens fairly often amongst decent shells, especially long-running ones where members have some sort of bond, rather than being the ffxi version of co-workers.

When I converted my LS over to bidding, I encouraged everybody to be as cutthroat about it as they could. "Being polite" like that fucks everyone over because someone essentially gets a really good item that doesn't affect their standing for other things. Thinking back, I'm sure there are some clever rules that could have been put into place that could have prevented this.

[Mojo]

Get one LS/group/static per event, this limits the risks to get fucked. We're not in wow.

unrealistic

[pchan]

unrealistic

That's how the game works, do you play ? What is not possible for you if you got one LS for every event ? relics ? The easiest way for a relic is to recruit noobs and do your own dynamis LS.

[Darlantan]

That's how the game works, do you play ? What is not possible for you if you got one LS for every event ? relics ? The easiest way for a relic is to recruit noobs and do your own dynamis LS.

Sometimes it is possible, but Mojo is right when he says it is unrealistic. What are the odds of someone finding/forming several different groups for each event, without event times conflicting, and with good people? You may be lucky and have a good LS for einherjar, another for salvage, limbus, dynamis, hnms, ks99 and whatever your interests are, but not everyone (read: not many at all) will be that lucky. Furthermore, I would think most people prefer to have as few LSs or groups as possible so they dont deal with several point systems and can actually play the game with the people they like.

[Nitecon]

The other linkshell leader I've met that rivals him in selflessness was nitecon of finalchapter, who was a very selfless person/sack/then leader.

I really didn't expect to see my name mentioned at all in this thread, I really appreciate the sentiment Buka, see you soon back on Gilgamesh!

Ok, nothing to see here, carry on

[Darwinion]

When I converted my LS over to bidding, I encouraged everybody to be as cutthroat about it as they could. "Being polite" like that fucks everyone over because someone essentially gets a really good item that doesn't affect their standing for other things. Thinking back, I'm sure there are some clever rules that could have been put into place that could have prevented this.

Set minimum bids for items. Depending on how many points your LS awards for events you could for example say... E.Body is minimum 50 points. Using this idea means each big ticket item would need to have a different value calculated. Bit of a pain to set up and there would bound to be discussions about "how come X item is minimum this and Y item is only that?". But no player would get cheap items for just 1 point simply because nobody wanted/dared to bid against them.

[Ksandra]

That's how the game works, do you play ? What is not possible for you if you got one LS for every event ? relics ? The easiest way for a relic is to recruit noobs and do your own dynamis LS.

because not everyone has the same playtime.

I actually don't like lses that tend to do everything in one, because the schedule constantly changes to try and fit "everyone's needs". It also implies you should be doing all said events even if there's some your not interested in (fuck sea).

[evilpaul]

I think there's two problems with point systems.

First, lots of them have set point values for items. A leader can be pretty good at what he does, but may not know the intricacies of every job class in the game or know how essential/useful a particular piece of loot is to a particular job. Especially because multiple jobs can use things and the usefulness varies greatly (BLM vs. BRD vs. WHM with A.hands for instance; I'm sure there are less obvious ones as well). Point auctions can solve this, but lots of point systems don't use them.

There could also be an element of randomness added to event point values by a RNG determined multiplier as well. Have a multiplier of 1-5 added randomly to dynamis runs. People are encouraged to show up everytime because one run may unexpectedly end up being worth more than the next.

Second, the problem of point inflation. A guy who joins has -100 points (or -3 events or whatever) and a guy who's been in the LS for years has 4,000 points. This can be addressed using some sort of attendance/activity system and it can also be addressed by reducing everyone's points by some percentage at certain intervals. Take 10% off everyone's points every three months. The guy who has 5,000 loses 500. The new guy who joined last month with 50 loses 5. It affects everyone porporiontately and can keep points from growing astronomically.

I'd be surprised if pretty much every "fairness" issue people run into doesn't already have a solution integrated into half decent pre-built DKP systems. People just need to actually use them.

[Darwinion]

I've never been in a points based LS though. I've only been in two endgame shells which were both based on leaders deciding who was worth getting stuff. The first shell was terrible and the perfect example of leaders getting everything. I left after a short time and 3 months after I left they jumped server with the LS bank.

The second shell had exactly the same principle of giving out items but was the complete antithesis of the first shell. Explains why I still have the pearl over 2.5 years later.

[Callisto]

Definitely the biggest issue is people unafraid to bid against older members with large point pools in my experiences, so they end up getting everything for minimum bids, and eventually people get tired of not being able to compete with them. I tend to just stick to smaller shells with arbitrary systems(i.e. I decide who gets what as objectively as I can humanly be). I'm probably doing it wrong since I don't have any relics yet though.

I can see the need for a point system in a larger shell, though.

[Tsuko_Asura]

If you were in a shell that was making so much gil you have multiple relics and more gil than you could possibly spend can you honestly say you wouldn't sell some off to get money irl? There are many shells that do it solely for this purpose so.. lol. stupid retarded devs are to blame for allowing shells to monopolise stuff

You've clearly never strolled into General. Wopa's loaded, he doesn't need to sell gil, lol.

[Tsuko_Asura]

porporiontately

This generally isn't my style but.. wat