Salvage~ When is SCH a good thing?

[Pivotal]

ok i've been looking for something on this i cant quite find here, i want to know what zones can handle a sch and to which effect. Is it worth it all the time? every zone? or only a couple?

Our salvage set up usually consists of:

MNKx2
SAMx1
BRDx1
RDMx1
WHMx1
THFx1

and BLMx2 if doing a Bhaflau rem. Give or take a MNK or SAM pending who's online etc. what i wanna know is, if i swap a SCH for WHM. is it a benefit? usually its the same whm in our group whom also has sch, i find helps them in the line of knowing how to heal/what ~na spells to look for etc.

Is losing cure5 a killer? i guess against bosses this may be? perhaps just within farming runs?

i have a LOT of question as per sch applications in salvage tho XD so if anyone who plays sch or makes use of in salvage can help me out or point me in the right direction! would be appreciated =)

[Thorny]

SCH can be nice, it's not going to be universally better or worse than WHM. In arrapago/zhayolm, I like giving SCH the first JA/SJ/Magic for phalanxga and enspellga.. makes first floor a lot more harmless and the zones have absurd amounts of extra time anyway. SSR/Bhaflau, just seems like it's not worth the speed loss on 1f. On higher floors, WHM is better in my experience.

[Callisto]

SCH can be nice, it's not going to be universally better or worse than WHM. In arrapago/zhayolm, I like giving SCH the first JA/SJ/Magic for phalanxga and enspellga.. makes first floor a lot more harmless and the zones have absurd amounts of extra time anyway. SSR/Bhaflau, just seems like it's not worth the speed loss on 1f. On higher floors, WHM is better in my experience.

AR doesn't give enough cells in my experiences to warrant giving a SCH everything they need, but I also haven't done AR in forever. Certain bosses it's really nice, Stoneskinga is great for dealing with Discoid, etc. If the RDM is main healing the SCH can also toss out some MBs on chariots and whatnot, really it doesn't matter either way. Losing C5 is no big deal on bosses at all, we've never had a WHM before that I can recall(I'm the main healer as RDM 95% of the time with BRD/COR support).

You honestly aren't going to see a real difference either way unless you're hurting for cells, SCH has more utility but can slow you down a bit on early floors at times if you have to go out of your way for certain cells that you otherwise could wait on.

[Byrthnoth]

Blah blah blah, go with one healer, etc.

If you're going to have a second healer, SCH is probably a better choice in most zones if you get an abilities cell because they can nuke and add to damage when you don't need a second healer. SCH doesn't need an abilities cell to cast Cure.
* Zhayolm - Would be fine, you can just farm an extra abilities cell. Downside is that cocks Petrify and no WHM for Stona. I've never done this zone with Stona that I can remember though, and we did okay. Stoneskinga would be nice for the boss.
* Bhaflau - Abilities cells aren't an issue, and SCH can help nuke on gears. Good deal
* Arrapago - Abilities cells are scarce but farmable iirc. SCH would help killing the rats.
* SSR - Abilities cells are plentiful after floor 2. I can't think exactly what it would be, but I'm sure SCH could do something cool to the gears by Citadel Chelonian.

In the end, SCH is a better choice than WHM because you shouldn't regularly need WHM anyway and SCH can pretend to be BLM. I still think Phalanxga is a waste of a floor 1 abilities cell in most zones.

[Thorny]

Losing C5 is no big deal on bosses at all, we've never had a WHM before that I can recall(I'm the main healer as RDM 95% of the time with BRD/COR support).

Losing Auspice and Cura sucks though, and Esuna is nice on gears. Cure V is just another bonus on top of that.

[Callisto]

Zhayolm - Would be fine, you can just farm an extra abilities cell. Downside is that cocks Petrify and no WHM for Stona. I've never done this zone with Stona that I can remember though, and we did okay. Stoneskinga would be nice for the boss.

If you give them an early JA it's fine, SCH gets native Stona with Addendum: White up.

[Callisto]

Losing Auspice and Cura sucks though, and Esuna is nice on gears. Cure V is just another bonus on top of that.

I see, we always have a COR in that slot for Monk's roll, I guess that's a wash with the loss of Auspice. I still don't know if I've ever actually seen Cura used, but we don't do a whole lot with WHMs in a situation where they'd be taking damage to make use of Misery.

[Thorny]

I see, we always have a COR in that slot for Monk's roll, I guess that's a wash with the loss of Auspice. I still don't know if I've ever actually seen Cura used, but we don't do a whole lot with WHMs in a situation where they'd be taking damage to make use of Misery.

discoid/gear moves

[pchan]

SCH can be nice, it's not going to be universally better or worse than WHM. In arrapago/zhayolm, I like giving SCH the first JA/SJ/Magic for phalanxga and enspellga.. makes first floor a lot more harmless and the zones have absurd amounts of extra time anyway. SSR/Bhaflau, just seems like it's not worth the speed loss on 1f. On higher floors, WHM is better in my experience.

Sorry but no. What you suggest doesn't speed up the run. Not giving the first JA to the monk is potentially harmfull to the run. Sch has to get magic, JA and SJ last, ESPECIALLY in arrapago.

1) ability after the monks because ability is their source of damage
2) SJ after the 1st monk because he will not get SJ making it very hard to tank stuff like the flayer or the bhoot.
3) magic any order is fine.


Secondly, First magic has to go to the RDM in the context, for haste, and since the rdm has phalanx II, sch is made useless. And don't tell me you need to sacrifice a JA because SCH needs it to paralyna.

[Thorny]

Sorry but no. What you suggest doesn't speed up the run. Not giving the first JA to the monk is potentially harmfull to the run. Sch has to get magic, JA and SJ last, ESPECIALLY in arrapago.

1) ability after the monks because ability is their source of damage
2) SJ after the 1st monk because he will not get SJ making it very hard to tank stuff like the flayer or the bhoot.
3) magic any order is fine.


Secondly, First magic has to go to the RDM in the context, for haste, and since the rdm has phalanx II, sch is made useless. And don't tell me you need to sacrifice a JA because SCH needs it to paralyna.

Hey brah, opinions are cool and all, but when you can clear with 15 minutes remaining with 5 people it really doesn't matter if the sixth is SCH or WHM or what cell they get. Arrapago is laughably easy, as you well know, and I would be shocked if enspellga on 2 MNKs was more than a 20% difference from counterstance/ws on one. Saving your RDM from wasting merits on something they won't use anywhere else is always a plus. I never give a MNK first SJ there, and have no trouble clearing all NMs and boss with significant time remaining.

[Pivotal]

Sorry but no. What you suggest doesn't speed up the run. Not giving the first JA to the monk is potentially harmfull to the run. Sch has to get magic, JA and SJ last, ESPECIALLY in arrapago.

1) ability after the monks because ability is their source of damage
2) SJ after the 1st monk because he will not get SJ making it very hard to tank stuff like the flayer or the bhoot.
3) magic any order is fine.


Secondly, First magic has to go to the RDM in the context, for haste, and since the rdm has phalanx II, sch is made useless. And don't tell me you need to sacrifice a JA because SCH needs it to paralyna.

Well this was my main concern when i looked at using a sch full time over whm.

I usually allow the first magic/mp/sj to the rdm then proceed w/ sj to mnk (or if not necessary i would give to whm for /sch). Also giving the mnk ja most gear exluc. ring/head/body for the rdm's Dalm/Dshap/ToAU ring.

tho i know our rdms phalanx2 is not capped making the sch's a stronger base? or is that not true?

as well i find SS is a HUGE plus with most farming runs, makes a large difference with shadow casting and with the gears -.- who always seem to hit pretty hard..

[Fredjan]

tho i know our rdms phalanx2 is not capped making the sch's a stronger base? or is that not true?

Yes you are correct.

A RDM's Phalanx II with 5/5 merits is -28 dmg with 300+ skill. With only 1 merit it's -16 damage. In other words, a RDM has to fully max Phalanx II to make it equal to Phalanx in terms of the actual strength of the spell, otherwise a SCH's Phalanxga with the same enhancing skill is going to beat it.

[Pivotal]

while im at it any opinion on taking a cor to Zhayolm i like having the rolls near the top, finding that MNK and acc roll (plz raise the cap on combat skill merits><)

what sub is best for cor in salvage? usually make /whm but i dont see a whole lot of support/curing power... tbh thats IF they get their sj unlocked. would /war or /blm for shots be better?

[Thorny]

I usually allow the first magic/mp/sj to the rdm then proceed w/ sj to mnk (or if not necessary i would give to whm for /sch). Also giving the mnk ja most gear exluc. ring/head/body for the rdm's Dalm/Dshap/ToAU ring.

MNK should probably be getting that gear first too, especially with 2 healers. When I solo heal, the DD get gear before my refresh pieces. You only lose one JA to the SCH, which is made up for by enspell damage for the most part.

tho i know our rdms phalanx2 is not capped making the sch's a stronger base? or is that not true?

Naked SCH gets 23 phalanx, Naked 5/5 RDM gets 26. Lower it to 4/5 and they're tied at 23. SCH has significantly less mp usage keeping phalanx on entire party, and saves damage taken whenever mages take stray hits as well.

as well i find SS is a HUGE plus with most farming runs, makes a large difference with shadow casting and with the gears -.- who always seem to hit pretty hard..

SCH can stoneskinga every 60 seconds(for 350 hp absorbed, not whm's ~120) :s

[Pivotal]

MNK should probably be getting that gear first too, especially with 2 healers. When I solo heal, the DD get gear before my refresh pieces. You only lose one JA to the SCH, which is made up for by enspell damage for the most part.


Naked SCH gets 23 phalanx, Naked 5/5 RDM gets 26. Lower it to 4/5 and they're tied at 23. SCH has significantly less mp usage keeping phalanx on entire party, and saves damage taken whenever mages take stray hits as well.


SCH can stoneskinga every 60 seconds(for 350 hp absorbed, not whm's ~120) :s

tyty bro =) lol kinda happy so fast to respond... didnt even have to wait till i got home to re-check! *insert evil laugh here*

Edit: outa curiousity can i ask which race you guys are? that are main healing... and is cure2 spam a better idea than use of cure3 and 4 on mp within first to second floors?

[pchan]

Hey brah, opinions are cool and all, but when you can clear with 15 minutes remaining with 5 people it really doesn't matter if the sixth is SCH or WHM or what cell they get. Arrapago is laughably easy, as you well know, and I would be shocked if enspellga on 2 MNKs was more than a 20% difference from counterstance/ws on one. Saving your RDM from wasting merits on something they won't use anywhere else is always a plus. I never give a MNK first SJ there, and have no trouble clearing all NMs and boss with significant time remaining.

It doesn't matter what your 6th is ? Then why do you give him first cells ?

Clearly enspell ga is is ridiculous compared to JA on the monk, it's at least 1k damage guarranted on every mobs. Secondly, phalanx II is by no means required, the only thing required is Haste. Wasting a JA so that monks take Zero damage is not going to speed up the run. By the time the sch is getting magic, you have regen II and the rdm doesn't have to rest MP for cures, which will speed up pulling.

I never give a MNK first SJ there, and have no trouble clearing all NMs and boss with significant time remaining.

You should bring a second bard too, a COR, and a dancer and give them JA or magic prior to the RDM or the MNKs. If you get unlucky and first floor drops almost no ability or magic, which can happen, you won't hit the boss because you wasted too much time farming heads or w/e on first floor. Giving JA to monk is probably at least doubling their damage output. What a waste.

[Nevex]

Assuming you have RDM and BRD:

Bhaflau: SCH>WHM
Arrapago: WHM>SCH
Zhayolm: WHM=SCH
Silver Sea: depends a lot on the route, I'd say SCH if you do Citadel Chelonian, else WHM.

Regardless, ALWAYS give SCH magic, JA and SJ first or it will be a complete and utter deadweight.

[Byrthnoth]

Well, 5/5 RDM with Phalanx II on the two tanks spends 84 MP and lasts 4 minutes each. Phalanxga costs 38 MP and lasts 3 minutes. So SCH is just a little less than twice as MP efficient as RDM in that regard.
However, if you're giving your RDM a magic cell for Haste anyway, they might as well have Phalanx II and get the Abilities cell that would go to the SCH so they can convert. Then you only need one healer instead of two.

[Callisto]

while im at it any opinion on taking a cor to Zhayolm i like having the rolls near the top, finding that MNK and acc roll (plz raise the cap on combat skill merits><)

what sub is best for cor in salvage? usually make /whm but i dont see a whole lot of support/curing power... tbh thats IF they get their sj unlocked. would /war or /blm for shots be better?

Ours are always /RDM or /DNC. The BRD handles the backup status cures, COR subs RDM for extra QD damage and the ability to be self-sufficient with their stoneskin/cures, /DNC for something easy where they melee alot like rampart farms.

[Callisto]

Well, 5/5 RDM with Phalanx II on the two tanks spends 84 MP and lasts 4 minutes each. Phalanxga costs 38 MP and lasts 3 minutes. So SCH is just a little less than twice as MP efficient as RDM in that regard.
However, if you're giving your RDM a magic cell for Haste anyway, they might as well have Phalanx II and get the Abilities cell that would go to the SCH so they can convert. Then you only need one healer instead of two.

Also should be noted, I have never in my life known a RDM who actually had 5 Phalanx II, lol.