Salvage~ When is SCH a good thing?

[Dremir]

in my ls i use sch instead of whm ONLY in zhayolm, for stoneskinga/silenaga/powerful dot on frog and stoneskinga for discoid, and also because in zhayolm opacus/dupli are not a problem you get in in the fist 10 min.

[Pivotal]

i really think im going to do some comparing over the next few months, parsing dmg w/ a sch obtaining the JA before a mnk and w/ it after, also look at time consumption. same runs/nms etc repeated just with the different set ups.

i have to think this works both ways... so far from personal experience in bhaflau sch can be extremely over powered, with the abundence of cells and clearing those 10 gears. Your MNKs are able to avoid most dmg w/ shadows etc, the sch swaping to nuke helps a lot.

i really want to find a fast solid method for each zone, regardless the set up ><

[Pivotal]

Ours are always /RDM or /DNC. The BRD handles the backup status cures, COR subs RDM for extra QD damage and the ability to be self-sufficient with their stoneskin/cures, /DNC for something easy where they melee alot like rampart farms.

/DNC is an interesting thought... might try that in bhaflau rampart run sometime soon! ty ^^

[Shin Volcano]

It doesn't matter what your 6th is ? Then why do you give him first cells ?

Clearly enspell ga is is ridiculous compared to JA on the monk, it's at least 1k damage guarranted on every mobs. Secondly, phalanx II is by no means required, the only thing required is Haste. Wasting a JA so that monks take Zero damage is not going to speed up the run. By the time the sch is getting magic, you have regen II and the rdm doesn't have to rest MP for cures, which will speed up pulling.

Clearly you're wrong, the amount of en-spell damage 34-43 from what i'v seen) and basicly invincibility on Ar for example more then makes up for not being able to WS, the amount of damage you do over time will probably equal or be better then waiting to gain TP then WS,

It speeds it up just fine, never had i had an issue with time as sch, on the run, you waste more time waiting for the other mages to get mp back from all the healing that needs to be done, you are all kinds of wrong in this aspect, try letting a good sch go on the run.

You should bring a second bard too, a COR, and a dancer and give them JA or magic prior to the RDM or the MNKs. If you get unlucky and first floor drops almost no ability or magic, which can happen, you won't hit the boss because you wasted too much time farming heads or w/e on first floor. Giving JA to monk is probably at least doubling their damage output. What a waste.

1st off... a second brd, really? much better to have a cor+brd combo. and if you have a problem giving a JA to to a sch why the fuck would you not have one giving one to a dnc, hell, why would you bring a DNC to Salvage in the 1st place?

Again, i'v always finished the run with time to spare whenever i had to go sch, i fail to see where this time issue you speak of becomes a problem, because i'v never seen it, if anything most time iv seen wasted was from mages running dry on MP or someone fucks up.

In fact one of the best runs iv had was an AR run with 6 people and the set up was mnkx2, sam, sch, brd cor, cleared every NM (not the 2 QQs because no one needed macha's coat) +boss with over 8 minutes to spare, note i was the ONLY main healer as sch.

[Thorny]

Man, I hate when people agree with me while posting complete and total idiocy. It makes me question whether I'm actually right.

[Shin Volcano]

Man, I hate when people agree with me while posting complete and total idiocy. It makes me question whether I'm actually right.

Oh, ok, care to point out this "Idiocy"?

[Byrthnoth]

Also should be noted, I have never in my life known a RDM who actually had 5 Phalanx II, lol.

I meritted my RDM on Byr for Salvage onry. Now I don't have a Salvage group anymore (lolbans), but I still remeritted 5/5 Phalanx II. So now you know a RDM with 5/5 Phalanx II . . . twice!

[Thorny]

Clearly you're wrong, the amount of en-spell damage 34-43 from what i'v seen) and basicly invincibility on Ar for example more then makes up for not being able to WS, the amount of damage you do over time will probably equal or be better then waiting to gain TP then WS,

It speeds it up just fine, never had i had an issue with time as sch, on the run, you waste more time waiting for the other mages to get mp back from all the healing that needs to be done, you are all kinds of wrong in this aspect, try letting a good sch go on the run.





1st off... a second brd, really? much better to have a cor+brd combo. and if you have a problem giving a JA to to a sch why the fuck would you not have one giving one to a dnc, hell, why would you bring a DNC to Salvage in the 1st place?

Again, i'v always finished the run with time to spare whenever i had to go sch, i fail to see where this time issue you speak of becomes a problem, because i'v never seen it, if anything most time iv seen wasted was from mages running dry on MP or someone fucks up.

In fact one of the best runs iv had was an AR run with 6 people and the set up was mnkx2, sam, sch, brd cor, cleared every NM (not the 2 QQs because no one needed macha's coat) +boss with over 8 minutes to spare, note i was the ONLY main healer as sch.

here, figure it out

[Shin Volcano]

here, figure it out

I did, you're retarded, not sure if that needed help figuring out, but good try i guess?

if you are still to dumb to realize it let me try and fix it, the two QQs, meaning the floor that needs you to kill in 7 minutes because we rushed to boss. not going to try to others because unless you like nit picking i'm sticking with the retarded comment.

[Zubuis]

Having both whm and sch and from doing a ton of runs I prefer WHM over SCH. SCH has some nice uses but I would rather give DD's the JA's first. When your good at salvage it doesnt matter really though, many combination work, just need some experience doing it and you will clear all the nms and boss regardless if your using whm + rdm or sch + rdm.

[Thorny]

1. Enspells do double damage because Qutrub take double damage. Those numbers aren't really that impressive because physical does double too.

2. DNC >= COR essentially any time tp feed doesn't matter(IE: anything but boss)

3. Your setup has no haste and 3 melee. Adding a mage who hastes the other 2 melee would improve your overall damage, give you more healing, and give the mobs less tp.

4. Skipping NMs is retarded. Someone will want a coat someday.

5. 8 minutes remaining is not impressive in arra. Reiterating, you have no haste.

[pchan]

Clearly you're wrong, the amount of en-spell damage 34-43 from what i'v seen) and basicly invincibility on Ar for example more then makes up for not being able to WS, the amount of damage you do over time will probably equal or be better then waiting to gain TP then WS,

It speeds it up just fine, never had i had an issue with time as sch, on the run, you waste more time waiting for the other mages to get mp back from all the healing that needs to be done, you are all kinds of wrong in this aspect, try letting a good sch go on the run.

Clearly you are wrong, 30 enspells, punch for 120-130.

without JA : the only thing you have that will speed killing is melee dot * 25%
with JA : melee dot + ws dot

since monk is 60/40 split, the first setup does 60*1.25=75, the second setup does 100 ! Also monks have counterstance, so 50%+ of the enmity attack are countered. Typically your main monk will counter 4-5 times per fight. Finally, he is giving first magic to sch instead of rdm is removing 15% haste wich is at least 15% damage.

1st off... a second brd, really? much better to have a cor+brd combo. and if you have a problem giving a JA to to a sch why the fuck would you not have one giving one to a dnc, hell, why would you bring a DNC to Salvage in the 1st place?

This was sarcasm. Clearly, all you need to clear arrapago all+boss in MNKx2 RDM WHM.

Again, i'v always finished the run with time to spare whenever i had to go sch, i fail to see where this time issue you speak of becomes a problem, because i'v never seen it, if anything most time iv seen wasted was from mages running dry on MP or someone fucks up.

With refresh and utsusemi, you don't run out of MP. Clearly, if your monk doesn't have ustu once you reach the flayer, two thing happen :

1) He has been MP sponge for the past 45 minutes
2) you are going to waste 10 minutes at least on that floor killing gears for SJ, instead of going straight for the flayer/bhoot/QQTH.

In fact one of the best runs iv had was an AR run with 6 people and the set up was mnkx2, sam, sch, brd cor, cleared every NM (not the 2 QQs because no one needed macha's coat) +boss with over 8 minutes to spare, note i was the ONLY main healer as sch.

I do that + 6th floor QQTHs with monkx2 rdm whm and a THF cells less beside weapon/hands.

[Shin Volcano]

1. Enspells do double damage because Qutrub take double damage. Those numbers aren't really that impressive because physical does double too.

Really? NO FUCKING SHIT, any other obvious shit you want to point my way?

2. DNC >= COR essentially any time tp feed doesn't matter(IE: anything but boss)

oh ok, i suppose if healing is an issue you will need that dnc, you may have to explain to me what a dnc does over a cor that makes it a better choice, no one will attempt dnc and i'v only gone once to a BR run and it went fine but no better then any other runs.

3. Your setup has no haste and 3 melee. Adding a mage who hastes the other 2 melee would improve your overall damage, give you more healing, and give the mobs less tp.

I did not realize haste was mandatory and meele could not function or kill without it.

The AR boss is a joke, and it was killed within 5-7 minutes, with no haste. because when healing was not needed i throw out nukes due to the massive refresh i had while the dd had stoneskin and phalanx to hold damage.

4. Skipping NMs is retarded. Someone will want a coat someday.

It's even more retarded to go after a 35 either everyone already had, or had no job to use it, no one wanted the coat it was even asked before we went to boss and everyone said "no"

5. 8 minutes remaining is not impressive in arra. Reiterating, you have no haste.

I was the only main healer as sch, we went as fast as we could with that set up, not sure wtf you were expecting, 20 minutes? again, meele can survive without haste, yes, it's true, hard to bealive, i know.

Edit: if you are wondering, the sam just shared Scing with the 2 mnks by alternating gekko's kashas etc to be constatly Scing, which is where majority of the damage was coming from. and last i check SAM has no trouble getting TP with the right gear.

[Byrthnoth]

lol. Anyway, volcanos explode.

[Thorny]

Nonsense

Haste is a massive increase to damage over time. This is also why DNC is good.

[Kaeko]

Best setups abuse haste. Not attempting to argue that the non-haste party setup doesn't work, but to say it's optimal is pushing it.

[ZhiGaruda]

Haste is a massive increase to damage over time. This is also why DNC is good.

LITERALLY everytime I go SAM/DRG with a DNC and 2x march w/ Haste, I come.

SERIOUSLY. EVERYWHERE.

[Shin Volcano]

Clearly you are wrong, 30 enspells, punch for 120-130.

without JA : the only thing you have that will speed killing is melee dot * 25%
with JA : melee dot + ws dot

since monk is 60/40 split, the first setup does 60*1.25=75, the second setup does 100 ! Also monks have counterstance, so 50%+ of the enmity attack are countered. Typically your main monk will counter 4-5 times per fight. Finally, he is giving first magic to sch instead of rdm is removing 15% haste wich is at least 15% damage.

Oh, ok, if you say so, i mean, clearly you are right and everyone is wrong in every way, shape and form, please, forgive my disloyatly. i mean if you can't do it why the hell else would anyone be capable of it?

This was sarcasm. Clearly, all you need to clear arrapago all+boss in MNKx2 RDM WHM.

Really? i had no idea, i wonder if you know what sarcasm is.

With refresh and utsusemi, you don't run out of MP. Clearly, if your monk doesn't have ustu once you reach the flayer, two thing happen :

1) He has been MP sponge for the past 45 minutes
2) you are going to waste 10 minutes at least on that floor killing gears for SJ, instead of going straight for the flayer/bhoot/QQTH.

Oh yes, because shadows are on a 0 timer and are always ready at a moments notice, there is also no such thing as Aoes. again, clearly if you are incapable of a such a task no one else is.

I have yet to see where the "wasted time" comes into play, because so far i havn't had any issues.

I do that + 6th floor QQTHs with monkx2 rdm whm and a THF cells less beside weapon/hands.

I see, would you like a cookie?

[Shin Volcano]

Same shit, different smell

Shit, let me go learn the haste spell right quick, salvage is incredibly difficult and there is no way in hell to finish any run without haste.


Psssst "whisper's" Double march is just as effective

No minuet you say?

ah well,....yea see there is this roll that cors do call chaos? yea...

[pchan]

Oh, ok, if you say so, i mean, clearly you are right and everyone is wrong in every way, shape and form, please, forgive my disloyatly. i mean if you can't do it why the hell else would anyone be capable of it?

Yes mister "I need brd, cor and sch" to kill stuff. Want a cookie to clear a zone with 8 ? Salvage history :

First day : alliances enter salvage and wipe after 10 minutes.
Second day : every one level monks
Third day : people find out the d/c trick.

oh ok, i suppose if healing is an issue you will need that dnc, you may have to explain to me what a dnc does over a cor that makes it a better choice, no one will attempt dnc and i'v only gone once to a BR run and it went fine but no better then any other runs.

Haste makes it a better choice, Chaos is nice but most likely Dia III and meat is already capping your attack. So what useful rolls left ? Crit hit up, DA attack. If you were not bringing a bard, i would say COR is better ; but thing is bringing a brd makes that last 10% haste awesome.