Salvage~ When is SCH a good thing?

[Hyriu]

Shit, let me go learn the haste spell right quick, salvage is incredibly difficult and there is no way in hell to finish any run without haste.


Psssst "whisper's" Double march is just as effective

No minuet you say?

ah well,....yea see there is this roll that cors do call chaos? yea...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...1/WonkaMad.jpg

[Shin Volcano]

Yes mister "I need brd, cor and sch" to kill stuff. Want a cookie to clear a zone with 8 ? Salvage history :

First day : alliances enter salvage and wipe after 10 minutes.
Second day : every one level monks
Third day : people find out the d/c trick.





Haste makes it a better choice, Chaos is nice but most likely Dia III and meat is already capping your attack. So what useful rolls left ? Crit hit up, DA attack. If you were not bringing a bard, i would say COR is better ; but thing is bringing a brd makes that last 10% haste awesome.

/Facepalm

oh ok bro, whatever you say.

Everyone needs a comfy pillow.

[Mojo]

I'd say SCH is very useful in Salvage, I'd always take one over a WHM. Direct comparisons between enspell damage and weaponskill damage are usually very dismissive of the logistical benefits that come from giving the SCH the first Opacus cell. The process of buffing your melee and pulling mobs becomes immensely simpler. This can be very helpful in speeding things up, especially in the beginning of the run. It outweighs benefit of a slight increase in damage from one more melee who can weaponskill (if that even results in more damage, which I'm skeptical of anyways.)

[Talisien]

This is the first time I'm hearing a lot of people abuse Dancer. Makes a lot of sense, gotta give it a whirl.

Along the same lines, question on Blu. Anyone find a good use for this? We had one fooling around in Bhaf the other day and Disseverement took one of the Yin/Yang triple gears from 20% -> dead by itself (just the poison, not the initial damage), and fast. Was pretty surprising and made me wonder if Blu's good for anything else/other zones.

[Shin Volcano]

I couldn't pay a group to let me even attempt dnc, they all just laugh at the mention of it in salvage, i'd love to give it a try, but what can i do to convince them :/

[Jeryhn]

I took both Slow2 and Phalanx2 to 5/5 and haven't looked back.

I've done Salvage once with a SCH and was pretty impressed.
However, WHM has a light-based sleep spell that is longer than 30 seconds, and that just can't be beat.

DNC sounds pretty good. A single JA cell means incoming Waltzes (Cures and Status Healing) and Haste Sambas, and they have natural H2H skill. I'll try to see if I can include one when I Salvage from now on.

[Ohemgee]

I feel bad for the OP, everyone went on an pchan tangent. Having WHM SCH and COR leveled I can say this (from my own group, which includes access to an Apoc): SCH is only at its max potential in Bhaflau, other than that, you sacrifice too much DoT over support.

From my own experience, you just can't give a SCH an ability cell over a melee on the first floors for SSR and Arrapago, you lose too much time killing shit before getting the NMs.

Bhfalau- SCH rapes
Zhaylom- Only really good for Boss
SSR- Fuck that
Arra- Above

Edit: Salvage is all about what you have for DDs too. Without that option, you can't base proper support for it.

Typically I go with:

Apoc DRK
SAM or WAR
WHM
RDM
BRD
THF

As our "core" group, the rest is whoever comes from the LS.

[Mojo]

You're overlooking the fact that it takes about 5 minutes to get full Opacus in Zhayolm, so I have on idea why you would ever think that it wouldn't be a good idea there. You get abilities very quickly in Silver Seas too and considering that you can just charge into Hammerblow room and decimate everything in sight with a SCH, it's not bad at all. Arrapago is the only zone I would consider to be a toss up of some kind.

[Shin Volcano]

I feel bad for the OP, everyone went on an pchan tangent. Having WHM SCH and COR leveled I can say this (from my own group, which includes access to an Apoc): SCH is only at its max potential in Bhaflau, other than that, you sacrifice too much DoT over support.

From my own experience, you just can't give a SCH an ability cell over a melee on the first floors for SSR and Arrapago, you lose too much time killing shit before getting the NMs.

Bhfalau- SCH rapes
Zhaylom- Only really good for Boss
SSR- Fuck that
Arra- Above

Well, this is where i disagree, at 1st that is what the group i tried to convince thought, but whenever AR comes around, the 1st JA/MA/SJ cell go to sch, and its compelty smooth after that, trust me, the 1st time i tried asking for ja 1st, i got chewed out with skepticism, but after they saw how effective it was,

I acttualy got suggested to come as it one day. now while AR can be random, you would be screwed if no other Ability cells drops from then on but at that point, healing was never an issue and the DDs damage was made up for just from en-spell damage. it's well worth it IMO, you should just give it a try. of course, the SCh has to be good at the job tho...sch is an easy job to fuck up in AR if they don't understand the job.

Good examples, they can take care of dispels for all the ice spikes spaming as well as keep good regens and phalanx and stone skin up, plus the occasional accession nas if shit hits the fan.

[pchan]

I took both Slow2 and Phalanx2 to 5/5 and haven't looked back.

I've done Salvage once with a SCH and was pretty impressed.
However, WHM has a light-based sleep spell that is longer than 30 seconds, and that just can't be beat.

DNC sounds pretty good. A single JA cell means incoming Waltzes (Cures and Status Healing) and Haste Sambas, and they have natural H2H skill. I'll try to see if I can include one when I Salvage from now on.

DNC has the same problem as scholar, they need plenty of [crucial] cells to be usefull. You won't be efficient untill you get enough TP, so you'll need weapon, JA etc, melee gear.. It will be good once monkx2 rdm whm have their stuff, making it not great.

[Ohemgee]

@Mojo; I know it doesn't take long to get abilities, its just that JA/Sub/Weapon goes to the relic drk first vs me getting it in the start, because an apoc can heal itself, rape a mob, and have time to tank shit without any support, save haste from the RDM who gets the first magic.

@Volcano; I'm not going to argue facts of what SCH does, or what a SCH can do (because clearly I have it leveled and used it before in each zones to come to my conclusions, right?) I was stating personal preference on what my group can do. The entire argument should be based on what kind of DDs you bring. Having a relic DRK in my group gives us our token strategy, not having him on the run would cause us to restructure shit.

[pchan]

You're overlooking the fact that it takes about 5 minutes to get full Opacus in Zhayolm, so I have on idea why you would ever think that it wouldn't be a good idea there. You get abilities very quickly in Silver Seas too and considering that you can just charge into Hammerblow room and decimate everything in sight with a SCH, it's not bad at all. Arrapago is the only zone I would consider to be a toss up of some kind.

You don't need phalanxga and stoneskinga to supertank SSR first floor, yo. You don't need phalanx II either. The only thing required is erase.

For zhalyolm, giving JA to sch means either THF, or RDM doesn't get it or that you spent extra time on first floor farming JA, or that you take the risk to dupe JA on the frog ignoring the fact that you can be fucked with range cells. General rule for salvage : you can never recover the time lost on first floor, because that's where the weakest mobs are. Sure it doesn't hurt you because as long you got a brd you will easily clear the zone. But in this case why bring a SCH if it doesn't make the run better than WHM ?

[Nevex]

This is the first time I'm hearing a lot of people abuse Dancer. Makes a lot of sense, gotta give it a whirl.

Along the same lines, question on Blu. Anyone find a good use for this? We had one fooling around in Bhaf the other day and Disseverement took one of the Yin/Yang triple gears from 20% -> dead by itself (just the poison, not the initial damage), and fast. Was pretty surprising and made me wonder if Blu's good for anything else/other zones.

Blu needs pretty a lot of cells to be useful, which means it sucks in Arrapago and, to a lesser extent, in Silver Sea.

It's decent in Zhayolm, especially against frogs and very good in Bhaflau.

Bhaflau is where BLU shines since you get cells very quickly and blue magic destroyes pretty much everything. It's also decent on boss if you get a Body Boost and spam breaths. If you didn't manage to kill all the gears then stand behind it and spam Regurgitation instead. A single MNK/NIN is more than capable of tanking the boss by himself.

Tizona makes things even easier - big three spells do 80-100% damage to any rampart mob and I easily get 50-100 MP back if MP conversion procs since they take double/triple damage. When I do Bhaflau as BLU/WAR I usually have COR+BRD to maximize that aspect. If we plan on doing boss it's better to have a second healer rather than COR, though.

[Ohemgee]

You don't need phalanxga and stoneskinga to supertank SSR first floor, yo. You don't need phalanx II either. The only thing required is erase.

For zhalyolm, giving JA to sch means either THF, or RDM doesn't get it or that you spent extra time on first floor farming JA, or that you take the risk to dupe JA on the frog ignoring the fact that you can be fucked with range cells. General rule for salvage : you can never recover the time lost on first floor, because that's where the weakest mobs are. Sure it doesn't hurt you because as long you got a brd you will easily clear the zone. But in this case why bring a SCH if it doesn't make the run better than WHM ?

The problem with the first floor is kill speed versus support. And I'd rather kill shit faster working my way up to Hammer to save on time, versus having full out support that kills time

[BerenTebogo]

This thread reminded me why I have mr. volcano on my ignore list. Why is there even a show post button?

[Mojo]

You don't need phalanxga and stoneskinga to supertank SSR first floor, yo. You don't need phalanx II either. The only thing required is erase.

For zhalyolm, giving JA to sch means either THF, or RDM doesn't get it or that you spent extra time on first floor farming JA, or that you take the risk to dupe JA on the frog ignoring the fact that you can be fucked with range cells. General rule for salvage : you can never recover the time lost on first floor, because that's where the weakest mobs are. Sure it doesn't hurt you because as long you got a brd you will easily clear the zone. But in this case why bring a SCH if it doesn't make the run better than WHM ?

I don't know how many people you take to Zhayolm, but that simply isn't true. Abilities is the most common cell on the first floor, you wouldn't need to farm more unless you're bringing too many people. And again, you're completely dismissing how having more time for your mages can speed things up. While you mages are busy casting cures on your melee, a SCH be doing a variety of other things that improve the speed of the run (checking chests for fanatics drinks, putting Dia II on every mob you fight, aggroing the next group of mobs and putting them all next to you, etc.)

It sounds like you've never tried it, but that's typical.

[Ohemgee]

This thread reminded me why I have mr. volcano on my ignore list. Why is there even a show post button?

There was a post in the latest Random Image thread in GD that shows how to hide people.

[FailureMidgard]

2) SJ after the 1st monk because he will not get SJ making it very hard to tank stuff like the flayer or the bhoot.
3) magic any order is fine.

And yet another reason you overrate mnk in salvage. Sam can do the entire run without subjob easily.

[Talisien]

It's also decent on boss if you get a Body Boost and spam breaths. If you didn't manage to kill all the gears then stand behind it and spam Regurgitation instead. A single MNK/NIN is more than capable of tanking the boss by himself.

Sorry, I know absolutely nothing about Blu, is Regurgitation an interrupt (stun)? Or is it just decent damage from the back for no hate (according to wiki) so therefore a good idea.

[pchan]

I don't know how many people you take to Zhayolm, but that simply isn't true. Abilities is the most common cell on the first floor, you wouldn't need to farm more unless you're bringing too many people. And again, you're completely dismissing how having more time for your mages can speed things up. While you mages are busy casting cures on your melee, a SCH be doing a variety of other things that improve the speed of the run (checking chests for fanatics drinks, putting Dia II on every mob you fight, aggroing the next group of mobs and putting them all next to you, etc.)

It sounds like you've never tried it, but that's typical.

Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about. Never should the run be getting slow because the you are resting MP. If that's the case your melees suck and they should be swapped for something else. Saying that SCH is required so that mages can rest MP is RETARDED. I do all my runs with WHM+RDM and no bard or cor, and both absolutely never rest MP. So if you need stoneskin ga, you are doing wrong.

The only thing usefull about SCH is enspells, nothing else.