Salvage~ When is SCH a good thing?

[pchan]

First, you need to go back to reading. I did the math with mnkx2 and THF . It's worse that the normal cell distribution.

Secondly,

pchan, it's clear you never actually did rdm whm mnk mnk thf as reliably as you claim, because you go out of your way to theorize how it could be done. Stop stretching the truth and just call the setup possible and let the rest of us analyze your papers for practicality. I think no one's disputing that it could be done with the addition of good meds and chance (or replacement of mnks with sams, if you don't want to test luck), but don't lie (and troll) by stating you did it and then not being able to answer simple queries from direct experience.

No, I didn't say that it could be done, I said that I DO it. Transfer to remora, get me in your group, i'll show you how to play mnk or rdm.

[FailureMidgard]

First, you need to go back to reading. I did the math with mnkx2 and THF . It's worse that the normal cell distribution.

Secondly,



No, I didn't say that it could be done, I said that I DO it. Transfer to remora, get me in your group, i'll show you how to play mnk or rdm.

Did you all transfer to buy Shenlongs? Or did you just leave people? ;p

[Thorny]

well he's soloing in mire with an outside puller and healers atm, guessing monchat=mdkuser and lynnminmay=pchan
camouille is probably their rdm mule

[FailureMidgard]

well he's soloing in mire with an outside puller and healers atm, guessing monchat=mdkuser and lynnminmay=pchan
camouille is probably their rdm mule

lol, I didn't even realize he blacked his name out on that screenshot :/

[NynJa]

what screenshot ?

[FailureMidgard]

what screenshot ?

signature. I think he's embarrassed of his new name.

[NynJa]

ohh, wow I didnt even notice that till you pointed it out, I guess no more salvage videos either?

[BerenTebogo]

http://i46.tinypic.com/1oas7r.png

Relevant to the topic

[Wrish]

First, you need to go back to reading. I did the math with mnkx2 and THF . It's worse that the normal cell distribution.

Did you? No, you didn't. Also, your second sentence is an incomplete thought.

without JA : the only thing you have that will speed killing is melee dot * 25%
with JA : melee dot + ws dot

since monk is 60/40 split, the first setup does 60*1.25=75, the second setup does 100 ! Also monks have counterstance, so 50%+ of the enmity attack are countered. Typically your main monk will counter 4-5 times per fight. Finally, he is giving first magic to sch instead of rdm is removing 15% haste wich is at least 15% damage.

You compared a single monk with enspell (75 dmg) against a single monk with WS (100 dmg). Had you compared two monks, that would have been: two monks with enspell (150 dmg) versus one monk with WS and one without (100 + 60 = 160).

Now feed in a more realistic yet generous DoT/WS ratio of 70/30 average for the main monk and 100 dmg turns into 85: two monks with enspell (150 dmg) vs. one monk with WS and one without (85 + 60 = 145). Now add in the THF and watch the advantage turn straight over to SCH. A SCH can spend more time pulling than RDM; didn't you just stress the importance of good pulls?

No, I didn't say that it could be done, I said that I DO it. Transfer to remora, get me in your group, i'll show you how to play mnk or rdm.

If you DO it, then you already have a group, then you already can post a video. Oh, right, you DON'T Salvage anymore. Two conflicting things you said. You must be lying in one of them. Oh, and am I supposed to transfer to Remora to meet your unnamed 75 pup/war? Very smooth talking. Lynnminmay - lol.

[pchan]

You compared a single monk with enspell (75 dmg) against a single monk with WS (100 dmg). Had you compared two monks, that would have been: two monks with enspell (150 dmg) versus one monk with WS and one without (100 + 60 = 160).
.

I later did amore accurate comparison using 2 monk and 1 THF, so like I said try reading, here it is :

Assuming 2 mnks, 1 THF as DD.

If the chest has 2 abilities, you would give ability to monk and sch

MNK1 : 65*1.2+35, 10 counter. (1.2 for enspells). Total : 123
MNK1 : 65*1.2. Total : 78.
THF : purely going with H2H (dmg 25 delay 480), your dps is 4.16 worse than the monk2. If the monk hits for 100 and 20 enspells then the THF hits for ~40 and 20 enseplls too so that's 50% increase to its dot. Total : 78/4.16*1.5=28.12


Total with SCH getting JA : 123+78+28.12=229.12.
Total with SCH not getting JA and therefore RDM getting magic first (1.15 is for haste): [ (65+35)+(65+35)+65/4.16 ] * 1.15=248.

Clearly unlocking the rdm first is more profitable. Now the first chest can only drop one ability. In this case it would go to sch :

MNK1 & 2 : neglect counter since no Counterstance : 65*1.2 each
THF : 78/4.16*1.5=28.12
Total with SCH unlocked first : 184.12
Total with RDM unlocked first, and therefore mnk getting the JA : (65+35+10 + 65 + 65/4.16)*.15=219.


In both case I find the SCH option losing in damage. If you go with WHM+SCH instead it should be the same. I'm not saying SCH is useless, I'm saying that if you take a rdm in your group in the first place, you should focus on the core people required to do the zone, which would be mnk/mnk/RDM. Keep in mnd that mnk's effective delay is 348/2=174, so it's *one of the*, if no *the* job, that SCH will boost the most. If the "SCH first" setup is worse on the monk then it can not do good on say SAM whose dot is worse than a PUP with no weapon. I could see it winning on nin however.


I will answer the second part later.

You cannot beat the damage of just one JA monk with enspells. End of the story. If it make you feel warm inside to bring SCH and waste cells on him, do it. It has been explained 1 million times in this thread that you can afford going slower. The question was what's better.

[Beave]

signature. I think he's embarrassed of his new name.

The real question at hand...is pchan still not an idle red mage?

[Motenten]

If the chest has 2 abilities, you would give ability to monk and sch

MNK1 : 65*1.2+35, 10 counter. (1.2 for enspells). Total : 123
MNK1 : 65*1.2. Total : 78.
THF : purely going with H2H (dmg 25 delay 480), your dps is 4.16 worse than the monk2. If the monk hits for 100 and 20 enspells then the THF hits for ~40 and 20 enseplls too so that's 50% increase to its dot. Total : 78/4.16*1.5=28.12


Total with SCH getting JA : 123+78+28.12=229.12.
Total with SCH not getting JA and therefore RDM getting magic first (1.15 is for haste): [ (65+35)+(65+35)+65/4.16 ] * 1.15=248.

Your multiplier for enspells seems a bit off. Rechecking... Melee average of mnk on qutrub from my parse was 125 (previous listed was average of qutrub and lamia, but that would generate an even higher percentage). I would expect enspell to average about 32-35 on qutrub, which is 25%-28%. Melee average on Lamia was 63. Would expect enspells to average 16-17 on them, so again 25%-27%. Will use 25%. [Based on experience with use, not parses; will need to parse to get a more reliable value.]

25% of 65 is 16.25 units added per mnk.

I'm estimating the first floor mobs' defenses at about 300-310 based on apparent pDiff, considering average damage vs food used. Feel free to correct it if wrong.

If thf is using meat on the early floors (no reason not to), they'll probbaly end up with around a 290 attack if using H2H. So, maybe 24 damage per melee hit. Scaling relative to the mnk's 63 dmg, and 480 delay vs 348, they're at 27.6% of the mnk's melee damage. Apply to the 65 unit of the mnk gives 18 units of melee for the thf.

If enspells average 16 (base), 16/24 means a 67% boost to the thf's melee damage, which translates to +12 units.

Base:

Mnk1: 65 + 35 + 10
Mnk2: 65
Thf: 18

Total: 193

Note: No additional counter damage can be had from the second mnk's JA, since that's a function of the mobs swinging at you. At best it get split between Mnk1 and Mnk2.

Second JA to second mnk: +35, for a total of 228.
Second JA to sch: 16.25 + 16.25 + 12 = +44.5, total of 237.5.

So solely comparing who you give the JA cell to (assuming the sch already has magic) ends up with more total damage by giving the sch JAs.

However you also argue the utility of giving the magic to the rdm instead for Haste. Haste would improve the three melees' damage by about 17.5% (about another +38 units (doesn't affect counters)), though at a cost of 120 MP every three minutes instead of the 24 MP of enspell-ga. Total when giving the JA to the second mnk would then be 266, 12% ahead of the sch option.

Edit/Caveat: That ignores the fairly high odds of getting a magic cell for the rdm within a fairly short time period, which nullifies the haste difference. In the particular parse I'm referencing, we had an overall 60% drop rate on magic cells from the lamia that could drop them. If you get two magic cells in the chest (the scenario that most favors the rdm), you're most likely going to have a third cell within 5 mobs, completely swinging things back in favor of gearing up the sch.


For the 2 magic/1 JA scenario:

148 units base.
225 units with mnk JA/rdm magic (haste).
192.5 units with sch magic/JA.

Rdm scenario is about 17% ahead here.


Additional factors:

- Sch can also accession fire weather for +7 str with Stormsurge, which should increase base damage by 1, which is about a 2% gain in total damage. That puts the skew at 10% and 15% in favor of rdm for the two above scenarios.

- If a third weapon drops early then the thf will be moving to daggers. Higher base damage weights things in favor of haste vs enspells.

- Both can Dia II, but the rdm can potentially Dia III, which would put things more in favor of rdm.

- Hastes and Phalanx IIs and Dia III per mob is gonna eat through MP pretty quick (especially with only half a normal pool), so have to balance carefully for the healing side if magic cells are limited. If the rdm has to spend too much time resting, you may lose a lot of that advantage.


The numbers do indicate that going the rdm route should be better, and could shave a couple minutes off the time for clearing the first wing.

Re: Sch vs Whm in that setup -- If the rdm is getting the first magic and the JAs are going to the mnks, the second magic (or third, if second goes to brd) going to sch or whm would make no particular difference either way. Both are just covering healing, or otherwise lightening the MP load from the rdm.

One might also want to consider the value of the third JA going to the thf (assuming weapon unlocked, and already including haste) vs the sch to see if the JA value of sch scales after the initial main DDs.

Melee avg of 32 with delay 194 (Thief's Knife) puts thf melee at a scaled 30 units compared to the mnk's 65. SA/TA damage are difficult to judge with the stat reductions, but total JA damage should at the very least match melee damage, which means about another +32 units from giving the thf JA. That's a fair bit behind the +44.5 the sch's JA provides.

Unfortunately to get that, sch needs sj, and if you're giving magic to rdm first, they need sj for -nas and erase. So to take advantage of it you'd need to give magic to rdm, sj to sch, make sure all mobs are dispelled before engaging so that paralyna isn't needed, then wait for the cells to finish unlocking sch. That seems like entirely too much of a hassle.

More additional factors: Splitting the group. In my group, after clearing sufficient qutrubs to trigger hp cell drops, I (as mnk) go off with the rdm to kill all the lamia in the SW and SE wings while the rest of the group goes NE to kill skels and ghosts. If the sch isn't properly unlocked, it would be more difficult for them to handle the main group. Whm could be substituted there and do fine, though.

On the other hand, whm can't nuke the rats and 6th floor gears, and that's a huge help in killing them quickly. One could argue for rdm nuking, but sch is a lot better than rdm there.


I wouldn't be as worried about the cell issues, except for the risks involved in hoping for particular cells to drop, or drop early enough. I would say that even with the difference in potential kill speed, it's safer to focus primarily on unlocking the sch if you choose to take one with you. If you take rdm+whm, the risks of getting the right cells go down considerably, though you also give up the other benefits sch brings through the run.


Overall it seems like an argument between a slightly faster start vs more strength later in the run. Between whm and sch I'd still take sch simply due to the nuking potential, but in no way is whm a 'bad' option, comparitively, and one could certainly argue the value a few minutes saved early on vs however much longer it takes to kill rats later in the run (it's a whole lot easier to nuke them down to the point where they stay still than to try to catch them while running around).

not that I disaggree, but you forget chainspell nuke ( 2k worth of MP), which takes one rampart and one gear at least, and the various drinks/tp wings found in chests found in previous floors, that are very common. Also with two monks, intead of sams wars etc, the chance of doors poping 2 trees are smaller, from experience. We have poped them many times with this set up w/o trying, because we just wanted to go to boss ( caped on morrigans).

Oh, there's certainly ways to improve it. I was partly answering pchan, and partly answering the person who thought sam was needed to clear the floor. So, I ignored meds and didn't include the rdm chainspell as I don't believe it was mentioned by pchan, though I also ignored the possibility of the gears using Restoral. Regardless of those limitations, it's still entirely possible to clear the floor (obviously).


Cool idea with the Blade Bash on the ramparts. I'll have to remember that if we have a sam come.

[pchan]

Second JA to second mnk: +35, for a total of 228.
Second JA to sch: 16.25 + 16.25 + 12 = +44.5, total of 237.5.

So solely comparing who you give the JA cell to (assuming the sch already has magic) ends up with more total damage by giving the sch JAs.

However you also argue the utility of giving the magic to the rdm instead for Haste. Haste would improve the three melees' damage by about 17.5% (about another +38 units (doesn't affect counters)), though at a cost of 120 MP every three minutes instead of the 24 MP of enspell-ga. Total when giving the JA to the second mnk would then be 266, 12% ahead of the sch option.

Edit/Caveat: That ignores the fairly high odds of getting a magic cell for the rdm within a fairly short time period, which nullifies the haste difference. In the particular parse I'm referencing, we had an overall 60% drop rate on magic cells from the lamia that could drop them. If you get two magic cells in the chest (the scenario that most favors the rdm), you're most likely going to have a third cell within 5 mobs, completely swinging things back in favor of gearing up the sch.

Again, if you ignore the ignore the subjob sacrifice, The difference between MONK JA first and SCH JA first is only happening untill you get 2 or 3 JA, which depending on luck can be fast or not. Best case scenario for the SCH is *IF* you get 2 JA from the intial chest (thus 1 magic) and The first lamia BLM drops his magic, in which case you are ~5 minutes only haste less. Worst case scenario is *IF* first chest drops 2 magic and only one JA in which case you will be asuran fists less for probably ~ 15 minutes. In the first case if the second lamia doesn't drop, it's going to cost you time. Since The first chest always drops 1 magic,and 1 JA, at least, it's safer and usually faster, to give rdm magic and rely on haste and phalanx II until SCH get's his ability.

- Both can Dia II, but the rdm can potentially Dia III, which would put things more in favor of rdm

From experience it's impossible to maintain haste and dia II, especially on the wing where one dispel/silence per mob is needed, and considering you start with 200 MPs.

[Strai]

The question was what's better.

Not really.

i want to know what zones can handle a sch and to which effect. Is it worth it all the time? every zone? or only a couple?

All the zones can handle a sch, and it's worth taking a sch if he can handle himself.

You can complete full runs with a sch just as you could with a whm.

[Wrish]

I later did amore accurate comparison using 2 monk and 1 THF, so like I said try reading, here it is :

Your later "comparison" postcedes the comment to which I replied (which was on the first page, was it not?), so it does not count except as a personal credibility defense. You would not want it to count for that, either, after I show you how riddled it is with mistakes, most likely because you neglected to explain any of your math or how you came about half the figures. Want me to start?

In the opening scenario of 2 JA and 1 magic, with one JA going to SCH, you count MNK1's counter twice. 65*1.2 + 35 = 113, not 123. The "35" includes counters, yet you added another 10 for counters. You determine the THF's damage by dividing the enspelled MNK's damage by 4.16, then multiplying by 1.5 to account for enspells.

In the same chest scenario with both JA going to MNK, you count both MNKs' counters at the same time.

Additionally, somewhere along the line (I wish not to search the whole thread of numbers), you reduce the contribution of enspells from 25% to 20%, which Motenten just noted and corrected you on.

In the chest scenario of just 1 JA, you neglect the fact that TWO magic cells would always drop, letting the RDM haste anyway. You then make no note of additional duties that the SCH or RDM could perform due to the newfound MP and time from overlapping healers' duties facilitated by the SCH's access to JAs.

Your conclusions are thus "clearly" true if one can also be supposed to ignore all of the dozen mistakes in your short page of calculations. I did say to let others analyze your papers; that doesn't mean I'd happily decode all the unexplained numbers and rummage in a landfill of errors.

Still silent on whether you do Salvage, I see. That you may have done something in Salvage once upon a time does not prove you can do it time and time again. Here, you cannot even prove you ever did it, so why call it by any other than a wishful theory?

[S N K]

well he's soloing in mire with an outside puller and healers atm, guessing monchat=mdkuser and lynnminmay=pchan
camouille is probably their rdm mule

Fucking Macross and Ranma 1/2 names.... <_>

Edit: No really. You named yourself after a fucking 80s Idol singer who was a stupid airheaded bitch?

If you guys don't know what I'm talking about just google Robotech.

You shoulda stayed as pchan. At least your personality fit with the whole no sense of direction.

http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig09/10095398.jpg

Then again taking the name of a character like this

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0...nmay_super.png

I dunno both seem to fit you. <_>

[pchan]

In the opening scenario of 2 JA and 1 magic, with one JA going to SCH, you count MNK1's counter twice. 65*1.2 + 35 = 113, not 123. The "35" includes counters, yet you added another 10 for counters. You determine the THF's damage by dividing the enspelled MNK's damage by 4.16, then multiplying by 1.5 to account for enspells.

My bad for overestimating the contribution of the THF by a little tid bit. Since I didn't account for the enormous 92 attack difference, it's very much less than what I stated, making SCH even less useful.

In the same chest scenario with both JA going to MNK, you count both MNKs' counters at the same time.

Often, when going with 2 monks, you are fightng 2 mobs at once, because unlike SAM+mnk you don't perform skillchains, so it's perfectly relevant and indeed the best way to perform damage when 2 monks have access to their JA. This way of killing also avoids Asuran fists to be wasted by overkilling, or, if you don't overkill, this avoid holding TP, which also results is lower dps.

Additionally, somewhere along the line (I wish not to search the whole thread of numbers), you reduce the contribution of enspells from 25% to 20%, which Motenten just noted and corrected you on.

Sigh, this was an answer to motenten that said enspells would do +20%, so I answered him using his numbers. Since you seem so full of the fact that SCH outperforms haste, you can provide us with a parse or maths showing how much damage enspells would do, on average.

In the chest scenario of just 1 JA, you neglect the fact that TWO magic cells would always drop, letting the RDM haste anyway. You then make no note of additional duties that the SCH or RDM could perform due to the newfound MP and time from overlapping healers' duties facilitated by the SCH's access to JAs.

Ok, let me do this scenario for you, yet again.

If the chest drops one ability, 2 magic drop.

MNK1 & 2 : neglect counter since no Counterstance : 65*1.2 each
THF : 65/4.16*1.5=23.43 (This is the mistake you mentioned where I oversetimated THF's damage, thanks for pointing it out)
Total with SCH unlocked first : 179.43*1.15=206 (just add the above values)
Total with RDM unlocked first, and therefore mnk getting the JA : (65+35+10 + 65 + 65/4.16)*.15=219.

Bolded the part that changed and which is still inferior to the MONK option. Also, and I didn't want to imply pdif in the calcultaion, The thf is suffering a severe loss in attack compared to the monk (-70 at least), which I didn't account for.

So what's next ? You will argue that the thf will get weapon quick ? No, he will almost always get it after the rdm getting magic. You will argue about sch being more mp efficiency allowing the rdm to cast dia 3 ? No, you can't because you only have 200 MP, you cast dispel and silence a lot. The haste option is getting all the better when Head cells are dropping, systematically increasing the gap between both setups. Waiting for you next counter-argument. I will counter it with thf needing abi to steal first and second QQTH. I will counter it with SJ being needed in case you pop princess pudding or first floor rampart. I will counter it with chakra recovering 200 HP every 3 minutes. I will counter it with dodge increasing evasion for 2 minutes.

Your conclusions are thus "clearly" true if one can also be supposed to ignore all of the dozen mistakes in your short page of calculations. I did say to let others analyze your papers; that doesn't mean I'd happily decode all the unexplained numbers and rummage in a landfill of errors.

Now your only option is to do the math about it.

Still silent on whether you do Salvage, I see. That you may have done something in Salvage once upon a time does not prove you can do it time and time again. Here, you cannot even prove you ever did it, so why call it by any other than a wishful theory?

I already answered this part.

[S N K]

I wish I could selectivly answer posts like you.



So Pro.

[pchan]

I wish I could selectivly answer posts like you.



So Pro.

Thanks for not contributiong to the thread

[FailureMidgard]

Thanks for not contributiong to the thread

Piggy.