Why are you looking forward to FF14?

[Eaglestrike]

Maybe a more simple analogy but keeping with the same examples are complaining that there is now Automatic gear shifting and you don't have to learn stick to be able to drive.

[Xavier]

I don't really understand people who look back at CoP as some sort of example of a good expansion. CoP was responsible for half of BG going to WoW. Sky to Sea, 3 Kings to 3 Wyrms, Dynamis to CoP Dynamis, it all felt like a huge step backwards. More time, less rewards.

Sure the story was great, but missions aren't going to satisfy players looking for endgame. Limbus was the only real saving grace. I think ToAU did a lot to turn things around, but that WotG didn't really do very much to maintain that momentum. I still think everything went downhill after Zilart.

[Eaglestrike]

I don't really understand people who look back at CoP as some sort of example of a good expansion. CoP was responsible for half of BG going to WoW. Sky to Sea, 3 Kings to 3 Wyrms, Dynamis to CoP Dynamis, it all felt like a huge step backwards. More time, less rewards.

Sure the story was great, but missions aren't going to satisfy players looking for endgame. Limbus was the only real saving grace. I think ToAU did a lot to turn things around, but that WotG didn't really do very much to maintain that momentum. I still think everything went downhill after Zilart.

I think Campaign was a wonderful idea and I spent a good amount of time in there. But there needed to be a bit more tweaking as I could only really go on my PLD since I can heal myself on it and couldn't go on my THF, which I enjoyed more (and had a relic on) because I didn't have a pocket healer and hard to trust random people to keep me alive and raise me.

But I'm not sure what happened with endgame WotG, didn't stick around long enough nor pay any attention to FFXI since to know if there even is one, heh.

[Kaylia]

I don't really understand people who look back at CoP as some sort of example of a good expansion. CoP was responsible for half of BG going to WoW. Sky to Sea, 3 Kings to 3 Wyrms, Dynamis to CoP Dynamis, it all felt like a huge step backwards. More time, less rewards.

Sure the story was great, but missions aren't going to satisfy players looking for endgame. Limbus was the only real saving grace. I think ToAU did a lot to turn things around, but that WotG didn't really do very much to maintain that momentum. I still think everything went downhill after Zilart.

ToA itemization wasnt really better. Sure, they gave you away a free turban, but until salvage, there wasnt really anything great. You will find some "better equipment" here and there, but there was anything amazing afaik.

I think Campaign was a wonderful idea and I spent a good amount of time in there. But there needed to be a bit more tweaking as I could only really go on my PLD since I can heal myself on it and couldn't go on my THF, which I enjoyed more (and had a relic on) because I didn't have a pocket healer and hard to trust random people to keep me alive and raise me.

But I'm not sure what happened with endgame WotG, didn't stick around long enough nor pay any attention to FFXI since to know if there even is one, heh.

Campaign was good in theory, and it works for certain job, but like everything in the games, there is obvious change that should have been made, but never happened

-Retarded conquest system where only the last 6hours matter
-Raise everyone when the battle is over, and -always- have npc to raise your ass when you die (and remove weakness while we are at it. Dont punish job with poor soloing skill)
-Remove downtime caused by a) people pulling monsters away reaaally far b) monsters take 3 years to come
-Give people item like you do in campaign to have fun with (going through the menu was a freaking pain, especially with mobs around)
- Do something about fight that last 30 sec because there was 64 npc and 32 players. Looking for a "good fight" was taking more time than the actual fight most of the time.

[Tulun]

I foldly remember CoP missions; I had sea before I even had sky (though, since I joined an end game shell with my static, I got sky shortly after I got sea). I joined during CoP, and got my first job to 75 shortly after ToAU was released.

I don't know of the Zilart only era but I honestly have never had more fun than during CoP because it told an epic story and a good chunk of the fights felt really difficult. When you had to have a group, set up times to attempt it and push through, and so on, it felt really fun. But the point still stands, as a stand alone rpg, CoP woulda been fine, but it's in an MMO... CoP end game was attrocious.

Limbus was fantastic, but sea is god damn awful. AV is the biggest disaster to befall FFXI...If AV had been on farm status these past years I think people would view it as an end game with a far more reasonable time / reward ratio (especially with 100% pop on AV and trigger drops). Execution should be difficult, but figuring out the strategy should have taken at most a few months, not unknown for years. As an end game situation, though, CoP was very hit (Limbus I think, other than not being instanced and the rather randomness of af+1 items, is a great event) and very miss (Sea).

Further expansions have seen a push towards more instanced content or popped content... which is good for the game and a good trend in general. FF14 will hopefully have less downtime and allow people to do things on their own schedule. Hopefully the majority of content will have redundancies; there should be multiple ways (instanced, world spawn) to get the same items. This duality of drops could easily allow hardcore gamers to get their stuff quickly but allow anyone a chance at these items (as long as the difference in time frame is reasonable).

[Siatdiat]

Pretty much I think everyone is retarded. My whole point is if the content is actually fun enough people will enjoy it for the sake of it being fun to play with. Obviously the depth of Chess cant be compared to this cheesy ass game. I said in my post that the only reason people are so worried abour rewards for the side content in ffxi is b/c most of it is pooorly designed and not actually that fun. Fact of the matter is if Brenner was actually fun then people would do it regardless of reward. Its not that people dont earn cool shinies for playing brenner, its b/c brenner was never actually fun to do in the first place. /em waits for fanbois to talk about brenner like it was the best thing to happen to ffxi and people just dont appreciate the magical perfection of SE.

[Xavier]

Brenner was the best thing to happen to ffxi and you just don't appreciate the magical perfection of SE.

I would have quit FFXI years ago if it wasn't for that one day I played Brenner for 30 minutes and never touched it again.

[Vacht]

I don't really understand people who look back at CoP as some sort of example of a good expansion. CoP was responsible for half of BG going to WoW. Sky to Sea, 3 Kings to 3 Wyrms, Dynamis to CoP Dynamis, it all felt like a huge step backwards. More time, less rewards.

Sure the story was great, but missions aren't going to satisfy players looking for endgame. Limbus was the only real saving grace. I think ToAU did a lot to turn things around, but that WotG didn't really do very much to maintain that momentum. I still think everything went downhill after Zilart.

I hate to admit it, but i think you are totally right.

[firewing]

My guess is that they probbaly won't get it right, but as in ffxi we won't care and will keep playing anyway because of the friendships you develop.

[Lucavi]

ToA itemization wasnt really better. Sure, they gave you away a free turban, but until salvage, there wasnt really anything great. You will find some "better equipment" here and there, but there was anything amazing afaik.

I disagree. Mezraq was a massive, massive upgrade for drgs. More and more items began to have relic-like effects on them, such as Mez's blindness. That's just one example, but that Lance completely blew away everything else other than relic.

[firewing]

Yeah, Mezraq was on every Dragoons wishlist at a 1M+ price tag. Too bad Thallasocrat made it worthless......

[Lucavi]

But since Thassasolafrass came out in ToAU, it only lends to my argument. That expansion saw a lot of jobs that had lackluster weapons receive a considerable buff. I remember the days of having to roll with an Ice Lance+1...

[firewing]

The trade off becomes tricky since everyone wants better weapons yet no one wants want thier old expensive or "+1" weapons to become obsolete. It will all come down to how much SE learned about job/class balance in ffxi.

[Ansems]

I'm not going to read this thread cause its obvious, ffxi IS DEAD and 14 is a new start, It might or night not fail but for us that quit or w.e. It's a new start and we can make new goals etc

[Lucavi]

The trade off becomes tricky since everyone wants better weapons yet no one wants want thier old expensive or "+1" weapons to become obsolete. It will all come down to how much SE learned about job/class balance in ffxi.

I don't mind things becoming obsolete simply as long as when they were "the shit", I got my money's worth from it. When I rolled with my barone set on drg (got it about 3 months after CoP came out), I used bits and pieces of that until well into ToAU, when I finished my full homam set.

I didn't cry at all when I upgraded -- that's what it means to upgrade - to move on. If I wanted to rock it as town gear, I did. I used those pieces for well over a year -- I think that's long enough in a MMO. It's not like you're graduating from a level 60 piece of gear to a level 75 piece - Barone was an end-game set. How long should I be using the same exact set of gear? How long should I use the same exact weapon?

Should a drg have had to use an Ice Lance+1 and a Wyvern Helm for 4 years? Hell, should a mnk have had to use Panther Mask for the same amount of time? It doesn't make sense to have a singular item (at end-game) that can be bought or crafted lasting for years and years as the best in slot - not for a game that you pay money each month to advance in.

Granted, tossing aside the new equivalent of an Ebody every 4 months is foolish as well, but should Ebody, which came out in RotZ, an expansion that was included in the NA launch, STILL be in the running for one of the best end-game body pieces? Still, after all this time? Hell, if someone were playing a single player game for 5 or 6 years and was still using the same end-game gear, they'd be bored, and that doesn't cost them a cent.

There has to be some middle-ground, but having things like pcharm last from the beginning of the game until Sea torques is nonsense. That's a mid-level item lasting as an end-game best-in-slot for years. It's not a relic. It didn't take millions of gil and an entire legion of allies to attain. It was a lucky drop of a rare NM that people camped.

HQ ele staves also come to mind, with those having been in the base game, and were the best for half a decade. Something isn't right about that. Where's the sense of progression?

[Kaylia]

I disagree. Mezraq was a massive, massive upgrade for drgs. More and more items began to have relic-like effects on them, such as Mez's blindness. That's just one example, but that Lance completely blew away everything else other than relic.

I never said they didn't add anything good, but they were rare, and usually very specific. You could compare Mezraq to Hagun if you want.

Anyway, Mezrak is relatively easy to get. It's the end game that suffer from good itemization. Buying thing on the AH is nice and all, but farming money in FFXI is probably the worst aspect of the game. It's never fun, and often created issue (hnm monopoly, rmt, ls bank issue...).

I don't mind things becoming obsolete simply as long as when they were "the shit", I got my money's worth from it. When I rolled with my barone set on drg (got it about 3 months after CoP came out), I used bits and pieces of that until well into ToAU, when I finished my full homam set.

I didn't cry at all when I upgraded -- that's what it means to upgrade - to move on. If I wanted to rock it as town gear, I did. I used those pieces for well over a year -- I think that's long enough in a MMO. It's not like you're graduating from a level 60 piece of gear to a level 75 piece - Barone was an end-game set. How long should I be using the same exact set of gear? How long should I use the same exact weapon?

Should a drg have had to use an Ice Lance+1 and a Wyvern Helm for 4 years? Hell, should a mnk have had to use Panther Mask for the same amount of time? It doesn't make sense to have a singular item (at end-game) that can be bought or crafted lasting for years and years as the best in slot - not for a game that you pay money each month to advance in.

Granted, tossing aside the new equivalent of an Ebody every 4 months is foolish as well, but should Ebody, which came out in RotZ, an expansion that was included in the NA launch, STILL be in the running for one of the best end-game body pieces? Still, after all this time? Hell, if someone were playing a single player game for 5 or 6 years and was still using the same end-game gear, they'd be bored, and that doesn't cost them a cent.

There has to be some middle-ground, but having things like pcharm last from the beginning of the game until Sea torques is nonsense. That's a mid-level item lasting as an end-game best-in-slot for years. It's not a relic. It didn't take millions of gil and an entire legion of allies to attain. It was a lucky drop of a rare NM that people camped.

HQ ele staves also come to mind, with those having been in the base game, and were the best for half a decade. Something isn't right about that. Where's the sense of progression?

The biggest issue with FFXI upgrade is that they are completely random. I mean, you could pay 3m on a new weapons, and next update, there is something better and easier to obtain, but the opposite also happen (take years before something change). This unpredictability can be very frustrating



Why is Ares's helmet, a piece that is much harder to get than W.Turban, is so awful? Awful enough to make the set bonus worthless. Same deal with askar head and many other pieces. I'm all for gear progress, but at least, it need to make sense and be somewhat predictable. I don't want it to be a gamble.

[arus2001]

Part of me hates item binding, but I kind of see the need for allowing it to promote a healthy economy instead of markets eventually getting flooded like with XI. I did like Aion's ability to extract old bound gear for enchantment stones (And I guess WoW did this too) so you could still get some money back for your stuff or even put it into your new things. That said, I figure anything I maybe used for 6 months or more had served its purpose, and upgrades to the slot would be welcomed. However, I do think there's some merit where when said upgrade is made available and it's easier to get than the old stuff, then something needs to be done about the old so it doesn't risk becoming dead content. Make it drop more frequently, make the NM pop more often, let it be part of some quest for another upgrade, or whatever.

People can do the whole "Back in my day!" QQ when such things happen, but it's not like the item(s) suddenly became useless, either. Unless, of course, they were monopolizing the source and bottlenecking its supply to force higher prices. Then they deserve to get burned by an update and left with an inventory full of stuff that won't sell well or quickly at unreasonable prices because alternatives are now present. I don't really buy the whole "Well, a price is reasonable when others are buying it!" argument when IGE's a card swipe away or people have other methods for receiving ill-gotten gil.

Now that I think about, I'm also hoping SE does something to help curb the resale market, too. Just look at Dynamis currency now. Would they be as expensive if people weren't buying up cheap coins to sell higher on mules they can park in Rolanberry 24/7? Not really sure how they could fairly do this, honestly, as sometimes there are legit reasons for quick trades between people (Bring me food/ammo/meds/etc), but there is a point where it becomes predatory or borderline monopolistic against people who might've been able to use them before greed entered the picture.

[Kaylia]

People can do the whole "Back in my day!" QQ when such things happen

Back in my day, I had to farm quadav helmets 3 week to buy an haubergeon... and I'm glad these days are over.

Now that I think about, I'm also hoping SE does something to help curb the resale market, too. Just look at Dynamis currency now. Would they be as expensive if people weren't buying up cheap coins to sell higher on mules they can park in Rolanberry 24/7? Not really sure how they could fairly do this, honestly, as sometimes there are legit reasons for quick trades between people (Bring me food/ammo/meds/etc), but there is a point where it becomes predatory or borderline monopolistic against people who might've been able to use them before greed entered the picture.

The annoying part about relic is that 95% of them come from team effort that went to a single person. Thing like this should never happen in mmo, because it encourage greed instead of teamplay. Long term objective are fine, but I've seen too many leader/sack redirect the ls ressource for their own benefit.

I wish that someday, a mmo will manage to implement a system that is relatively fair for loot distribution, where people don't have the possibilities to fuck up other people out of greed (consciously or not).

[Lucavi]

The annoying part about relic is that 95% of them come from team effort that went to a single person. Thing like this should never happen in mmo, because it encourage greed instead of teamplay. Long term objective are fine, but I've seen too many leader/sack redirect the ls ressource for their own benefit.

I wish that someday, a mmo will manage to implement a system that is relatively fair for loot distribution, where people don't have the possibilities to fuck up other people out of greed (consciously or not).

Relics were a well-intentioned team-effort attempt at having ultimate weapons. WoW does the same thing with their Orange Legendary Weapons. Human nature just happens to get in the way and fuck things up with greed and other sins.

I don't dislike those types of weapons, I just would rather institute smaller, group rewards along the way to the big, final prize so everyone who assists can receive a benefit as well.

I don't think you can ever stop greed from killing shells, guilds and whatnot, but you can at least lessen the impact by giving others a little bit of a reward along the way - after all, it isn't just the relic-holder that's putting in effort to get that weapon.

[Hyan]

The biggest issue with FFXI upgrade is that they are completely random. I mean, you could pay 3m on a new weapons, and next update, there is something better and easier to obtain, but the opposite also happen (take years before something change). This unpredictability can be very frustrating



Why is Ares's helmet, a piece that is much harder to get than W.Turban, is so awful? Awful enough to make the set bonus worthless. Same deal with askar head and many other pieces. I'm all for gear progress, but at least, it need to make sense and be somewhat predictable. I don't want it to be a gamble.

I think it makes sense, but in the early part in the game's life it certainly didn't. Jobs like DRG and THF receive overall more good items (sidegrades or better) and it's much to do with them getting shafted during the early days. On the other hand jobs like BLM and WAR who received tons of excellent equipment during the early days get shafted because that stuff was just too imba at start. SE continued on releasing more and better gear for those jobs, but ignored the unbalanced equipment and then we see stuff like Ares's mask, that doesn't make sense but in reality it's the equipment from vanilla/RoTZ that doesn't. O kote, ridill, hauby, e body, elemental staves, k club, e bow, relics.... Had these items not been implemented the way they did, more jobs would have better itemization today as well.

Of course SE has implemented stuff that makes no sense to the game since then, but not nearly as much and certainly not as imba.