Why are you looking forward to FF14?

[Kaylia]

You're not clearing Ein with a bunch of mages with no staves and melee with no haste.

You're not low manning high end ENM or other major bosses without haste gear, staves, etc. Relics also change low man situations dramatically.

Again, you probably didn't even check what I was replying to, because your reply make little sense in the context on my original reply.

Just because the upgrades were good doesn't make the expansion balanced. The upgrades were way too good for their time. End-all weapons for the game introduced in the very first expansion of the game? They basically bottlenecked themselves in regards to how good weapons you can introduce to the game by doing that.

It was the comment I was replying to. Zilart obviously has some of the "best gear" for certain slot, but do you really think it breaks the game "balance"? Do you think that current content isn't taking into account the fact that everyone and their mother is equiping elemental staves? Good gears obviously allow you to bring one less person occasionnaly, but it's not destroying the game balance, especially not on new content (and it didn't make old content much easier before).


About Einherjar, considering you don't really need more than 2BLM and that RDM can land debuff just fine, you sure can beat them without HQ staves. There is plenty of haste that can be found outside "overpowered" zilart item, so you could do fine without them. Beside, with SV song ans haste spell, you don't even need to reach the cap for zerg, which is even easier.

Look at paladin/nin now, and tell me what overpowered zilart gear they are using. The support team (healer/brd) doesn't really need overpowered zilart gear either to do fine, and dps only purpose is to speed up the fight. You can usually add more if you need more dmg.

Also, keep in mind that merit, new spells, job changed helped a lot as well. A lot of content got easier, but it's not exclusively because of your "overpowered zilart gear".

You're right, there's not much different between what you can get done with a kraken drk and any other character in the game.

Nothing that can't be done with Sam, drg, rng or warrior. Most recent hnm are immune souleater anyway.

And souleater zerg is what is broken here, not krakken. Krakken doesn't help of course, but SE could have nerfed it years ago if they wanted (like they did with 93% haste 2h weapon).

If you think lv 51 cheap crafted staves are *not* overpowered because *EVERYONE* with access *MUST* use them through the entire endgame for fucking ever, then I believe we're approaching this with different logic.

Compared to anything else in game, I agree they are overpowered (nothing else offer such a large upgrade for 1 slot), and the lack of other alternative is troubling (weaker relic, seriously?), but are mage really overpowered compared to other job? If staves were so overpowered, why the end result isn't overpowered?

My reply to Hyan involved gamebreaking overpowered, but your definition of overpowered doesnt mean gamebreaking at all.

[Plow]

Again, you probably didn't even check what I was replying to, because your reply make little sense in the context on my original reply.

The statement you made, which I replied to, was "name 1 fight where something from zilart makes you play differently," I listed several specific things that change, and several things that just plain change the whole game.

It was the comment I was replying to. Zilart obviously has some of the "best gear" for certain slot, but do you really think it breaks the game "balance"? Do you think that current content isn't taking into account the fact that everyone and their mother is equiping elemental staves? Good gears obviously allow you to bring one less person occasionnaly, but it's not destroying the game balance, especially not on new content (and it didn't make old content much easier before).

Bolded: Absolutely. Why do you think I'm posting, lol?

What you went on to say was exactly the problem: first off, yes, the entire fucking game is designed around every mage using the same shit for the last 25 levels and the entirety of engame, never to be replaced. That's broken game balance.

Gear so good that it changes the amount of people you need to do things should really not consist largely of shit that came out in the first year of a 7 year old game.

About Einherjar, considering you don't really need more than 2BLM and that RDM can land debuff just fine, you sure can beat them without HQ staves. There is plenty of haste that can be found outside "overpowered" zilart item, so you could do fine without them. Beside, with SV song ans haste spell, you don't even need to reach the cap for zerg, which is even easier.

I never did ein much, but your wars need zilart gear, your mages need zilart staves, your bards need them as well, not to mention ghorn, not to mention relics... these things make tremendous differences. These things are utterly and entirely irreplaceable... 6+ years later.

Look at paladin/nin now, and tell me what overpowered zilart gear they are using. The support team (healer/brd) doesn't really need overpowered zilart gear either to do fine, and dps only purpose is to speed up the fight. You can usually add more if you need more dmg.

Aegis/koenig, excal, dusk or CoP equivalent, wlegs, assjammer, occasionally earth staff, light staff, dark staff, speed belt, ...

PLD is the 1 real exception given no sky gear, shitty abj set, and ab-fucking-surdly well done itemization through CoP and ToAU... and I can still list half a dozen slots with *major* irreplaceable exceedingly strong zilart spots off the top of my head having never even opened the job.

Also, keep in mind that merit, new spells, job changed helped a lot as well. A lot of content got easier, but it's not exclusively because of your "overpowered zilart gear".

You don't see the issue in the fact that they were forced to feed us MASSIVE quantities of exp grinding in order to adjust single stats by miniscule amounts because they went so far overboard with zilart gear that they couldn't make anything even competitive in a lot of slots, let alone better?

T2 merits were fucking awesome... T1 merits should have hat 1 point's worth on zilart gear, 2 points on cop, etc.

I'm ok with something broken here and there-- kraken zerg is just plain fucking cool. But soooo many places on so many jobs... and so many being completely "uncool" things.

Nothing that can't be done with Sam, drg, rng or warrior. Most recent hnm are immune souleater anyway.

And souleater zerg is what is broken here, not krakken. Krakken doesn't help of course, but SE could have nerfed it years ago if they wanted (like they did with 93% haste 2h weapon).

Sam is what's broken in what you just said.

Nothing else you listed can even remotely begin to come anywhere close to kraken retardation. (using retarded in a good way there, btw...)

Compared to anything else in game, I agree they are overpowered (nothing else offer such a large upgrade for 1 slot), and the lack of other alternative is troubling (weaker relic, seriously?), but are mage really overpowered compared to other job? If staves were so overpowered, why the end result isn't overpowered?

First off: yes, mages are *still* overpowered in ffxi. Wah wah I can't melee zerg or merit on my blm. Afk /wrists while I solo half the limbus zones, 2 man sky and sea major bosses, and reminisce about the YEARS where the crazy accuracy on my staff and af makes me the dominant DD by miles while also happening to be able to stay out of the nasty shit. Nevermind the level of importance of staves on rdm and brd in both low man and big fight situations.

My reply to Hyan involved gamebreaking overpowered, but your definition of overpowered doesnt mean gamebreaking at all.

Your definition of gamebreaking is different than mine.

The entire game is different, in a negative way, because of the extreme effects of various zilart items.

In my eyes, that's broken. As I stated, sometimes that's ok... kraken is an acceptable thing given the rarity, other than the rmt aspects. Ele staves... no. Just no.

edit: and I didn't even mention dring lol ><

[Kaylia]

The statement you made, which I replied to, was "name 1 fight where something from zilart makes you play differently," I listed several specific things that change, and several things that just plain change the whole game.

I still disagree that it make you play differently. You mentioned a few items, but it's not like they they individually allow you to cut off by half the amount of people you need. A good dps won't deal twice as much damage as good "AH" dps. You're looking at 5-10% boost per item, which add up, but it still won't change the way you approach a fight.

There is a few exception where the boost is larger in certain situation, but even then, it's not like you couldn't accomplish the same with a reasonable size party.

What you went on to say was exactly the problem: first off, yes, the entire fucking game is designed around every mage using the same shit for the last 25 levels and the entirety of engame, never to be replaced. That's broken game balance.

I sincerely don't know what "balance" means for you, and that's why I asked Hyan to define the word (or overpowered..forgot...same idea). Balance imo refer to how you approach the content versus someone else who doesn't have the same item/skills/magic.

What you're describing is a terrible item progressions, and FFXI suffer greatly from this. I'm not saying otherwise, because it's exactly what I was said 2 pages ago

If SquareEnix had released Staff +16% boost to dmg and accuracy during CoP and a 17% one in WotG, would you still call HQ staves "unbalanced" or "overpowered"?

Aegis/koenig, excal, dusk or CoP equivalent, wlegs, assjammer, occasionally earth staff, light staff, dark staff, speed belt, ...

PLD is the 1 real exception given no sky gear, shitty abj set, and ab-fucking-surdly well done itemization through CoP and ToAU... and I can still list half a dozen slots with *major* irreplaceable exceedingly strong zilart spots off the top of my head having never even opened the job.

First of all, relic were meant to be the strongest gears ever. I have hard time accepting them as "zilart endgame", since they were meant to be the endgame forever.

Secondly, Aegis is CoP. It was released during CoP era and actually require items from CoP to complete.

You named a bunch of sidegrab. There is plenty of alternative from other expansion that are equivalent, or pretty close in term of "output". If you want to look at the digit, there is difference, but we arent talking about game changing piece of gears.

It's not just paladin, my warrior was almost entirely geared of cop/toa/wotg gears. It's the same with drg and many other classes. And the remaining "zilart" overpowered gears usually have close altnerative, making them much less overpowered.

[Kaylia]

These things are utterly and entirely irreplaceable... 6+ years later.

They are only irreplaceable because SquareEnix never bothered making similar items with "+1" to certain stats. It's not the gears that break the game, it's squareEnix for releasing inferior items when they could release something barely stronger that change absolutely nothing to the game balance.

Sam is what's broken in what you just said.

Nothing else you listed can even remotely begin to come anywhere close to kraken retardation. (using retarded in a good way there, btw...)

In general, most "zerg job" are broken when you use them for zerging. You don't need super gears to be able to efficiently zerg every zergable mobs in game.

First off: yes, mages are *still* overpowered in ffxi. Wah wah I can't melee zerg or merit on my blm. Afk /wrists while I solo half the limbus zones, 2 man sky and sea major bosses, and reminisce about the YEARS where the crazy accuracy on my staff and af makes me the dominant DD by miles while also happening to be able to stay out of the nasty shit. Nevermind the level of importance of staves on rdm and brd in both low man and big fight situations.

I'm not sure which game you played, but outside sea and tier1-3 ZNM (+tinnin), my Warrior and sam were seeing much more action.

Sure, they can solo NW limbus, and trio a few others zone, but 2 melee brd rdm can clear the remaining 7 zones. You're not bringing blm to nyzul, einherjar. salvage, merit party, cerberus, khim, hydra, campaign. They have their use in dynamis, they do fine in sky, but shit, it's not 2005 where blm and rng where everything. Blm shines in certain situation (especially lowman manaburn), but they are far from being good at everything.

If there is anything, rdm is the only broken jobs since it's pretty much good at everything, but do we really care? It's not like you don't need the other jobs.

Your definition of gamebreaking is different than mine.

I know. The first post you quoted had "Define "balance". " right under the line you replied. Everyone ignored it, but there is a reason why i put it there. =/

[Plow]

I still disagree that it make you play differently. You mentioned a few items, but it's not like they they individually allow you to cut off by half the amount of people you need. A good dps won't deal twice as much damage as good "AH" dps. You're looking at 5-10% boost per item, which add up, but it still won't change the way you approach a fight.

Just going to go with this because it basically covers it all:

Where does the "AH" dps gear come from?

Dusk gloves/legs/feet- Zilart
Haubergeon- Zilart lv 59
Snipers- Zilart lv40
Life Belt- Zilart lv4x
Amemet+1- Zilart
Jugg- Zilart


Now let's examine best possible upgrades in said slots:
dusk gloves/feet+1- Zilart
Ebody- Zilart
Snipers+1- Zilart
Speed Belt- Zilart
Still Jugg- Zilart
haidate- zilart


Let's just look at what's basically considered "best in slot" for a Warrior overall.

tp:

Weapon- Bravura, Zilart
Grip ToAU
Ranged ToAU
Head ToAU
Neck- CHRAM, zilart, else CoP
Ear1- assault I think still? not sure. zilart
ear2- CoP
Body- E.Body, Zilart
Hands- Dusk+1 Zilart
Ring1- CoP
Ring2- Sniper's+1, flame, or mars, Zilart or CoP
Back- WotG
Waist- Speed belt
Legs- Haidate, Zilart
feet- dusk+1, Zilart


Now let's go WS
Head: Nhead+1, Zilart
Neck: CoP
Ear1: CoP
Ear2: str, pixie, or 2dex, zilart regardless
body: ebody, zilart
hands: nhands+1, zilart
rings: CoP + STR, zilart
Back: WotG
Belt: CoP
Legs: nlegs+1, zilart, though ares are an argument I think
feet: nfeet+1, zilart

Now what's really fucked about that is there's people that post on this board that literally had everything in both of those sets except the WotG back, bomblet, and walmart... when they quit for WoW in 05-06.


Now, you say people do fine without that gear...

How well does a war with no haub, no haste belt/hands/legs/feet, no acc rings over +3 or 4, max +5acc on neck, and a wotg axe really do?

I assure you a bravura war with the best Zilart gear *will* in fact double the damage of a pixie weap full ares war, let alone if we restrict what CoP added leaving them with no decent neck, ear, or any haste belt.


The thing is that's fine... but it should have progressed to that, not started out like that and then had a bunch of random sidegrade/downgrades tossed in for the rest of the game's life with every couple years a piece that makes you do a double take.


Something like this

haub = +2dex/str +5acc/att
ebody = +5dex/str +5acc/att
AV or something body = +10sex/str +10acc/att
PW body = Ares style alternative, +15str +25att blah blah

Dusk hands/feet = +5att, +1 = 1% haste, 6att
AF+1 hands/feet = +2% haste, 2acc/5att
Ares hands/feet = +3% haste, 5acc/att

etc. etc.

And to keep the set bonuses and crap from being "overpowered," and leaving everyone wearing exactly the same shit (cuz that never happens... ><), you throw in some ein abj feet with 2% haste, 3acc/att, 3% double attack, and other slots with similar stuff.

[Plow]

I'm not sure which game you played, but outside sea and tier1-3 ZNM (+tinnin), my Warrior and sam were seeing much more action.

I was doing sky/kings when melee cycled through for spirits within and level 75's were a luxury.

I was running low man everything for the last couple years before I quit.

FFXI BLM and RDM are the most brokenly overpowered shit I've ever seen in an online game outside Age of Empires.

There's a reason ToAU shit has mage protection, it becomes a complete joke without it.


edit:

and no, I'm not going to edit the previous post because you're damn straight AV should drop a body with +10sex!

[Lordender]

I thought nin and /nin was the most overpowered shit ever. They better not even put that shit in 14 or it better not be NEAR as effective. That shit is so stupid that I still can't believe that was in the game and I quit in 2007.

[Lucavi]

I'd love to see, actually, how Kirin would have been defeated without blms with ele staves, when he would simply resist everything and keep raping. Hell, I remember the early days of Ulli, which simply consisted of kiting and nuking. Again, not having that hefty bonus on damage and resist would make for a slower, and far more lethal battle.

What was the name of that one idiot that spammed that spinning AOE move in sky? What did people traditionally use to defeat him? Oh yeah, ranged attacks and blms. Lets try him without hellfires and ele staves.

Because blm staves were numerous, they were "relatively" cheap, and as such, everyone had them. That doesn't mean they weren't completely broken compared to any other mage weapon in the game. As far as I remember, SE really didn't even introduce other blm weapons, aside from that lilith rod with the +6int on it, but yeah, lets see how that stacks up with the staves.

While on that 1-handed vs. 2-hand staff/rod discussion, a little, tiny thing I liked in WoW was the ability for mages to carry those little off-hand goodies if they chose a one-handed weapon over a 2-handed. I personally loved the little lantern that you'd carry - think of a tonberry's lantern that actually lit up the scenery, and had bonuses on them, in order to give mages a choice about whether to use a 1-handed w/ offhand, or a 2-handed weapon for bonuses.

More choice is never a bad thing, so long as all choices are decent!

[Vacht]

I really hope FFXIV is completely different mechanically in game. So everyone can stop arguing about what is best[for now]. The beast that ffxi created, the notion of elitism is all too prevalent. I miss the old days when people had more fun. Makes me miss Asheron's call.

[Destinye]

I really hope FFXIV is completely different mechanically in game. So everyone can stop arguing about what is best[for now]. The beast that ffxi created, the notion of elitism is all too prevalent. I miss the old days when people had more fun. Makes me miss Asheron's call.

I give FFXIV 6 months before the usual people suck the fun out of it lol.

[Eaglestrike]

I really hope FFXIV is completely different mechanically in game. So everyone can stop arguing about what is best[for now]. The beast that ffxi created, the notion of elitism is all too prevalent. I miss the old days when people had more fun. Makes me miss Asheron's call.

That's going to happen in every MMO, that's just how it goes, heh.

[Kaylia]

I'm not going to address the list of gears, because I'm not even sure what we are arguing about here.
Also, you listed many pieces as "zilart" that have better upgrade (sea torque/ancient torque, augmented crap, mini expansion reward, AV items... ). Thing like shadow breasplate outdo e.body in place like nyzul, salvage or campaign imo, so situational gears can rank up there as well.

HQ dusk gloves/feet are nice and all, but you're looking at +3 haste in exchange of 5atk/10acc, and more importantly, you run fucking slow (it does hurt if you have to do move quickly)



I should have used "easily obtainable gears" over "AH gears", because thing like aurum feet are much easier to obtain than dusk feet +1 for example. Essentially, everything with good drop rate or low price tag that isn't considered a luxury items. If you gears yourself this way, you will be able to be nearly as efficient as most perfectly geared player, at only a fraction of the effort.

How well does a war with no haub, no haste belt/hands/legs/feet, no acc rings over +3 or 4, max +5acc on neck, and a wotg axe really do?

He could simply job change to SMN if he had so little gears.

I'm not sure why you went for a literal interpretation of my post. I'm talking about a good players who didn't have the opportunity to farm the "overpowered" zilart endgame gears. A good players should still have decents equipment, merits, and everything that is easy to get.

I assure you a bravura war with the best Zilart gear *will* in fact double the damage of a pixie weap full ares war, let alone if we restrict what CoP added leaving them with no decent neck, ear, or any haste belt.

I assure you that we didn't have hasso and 2h updates back in Zilart.

Also, I doubt +3 dmg +15acc (35) -10atk and metatron torment alone would double your dmg. You're looking at +20%(?) dmg from the accuracy in the optimal situation, +10% from the dmg proc, and way less than +70% from metatron torment. If accuracy is capped, and it should, it's probably closer to +30% more dmg than 100%.



And again, I don't include relic in "zilart" or any expansion, since they were announced to be the best gears. I'm not saying it was a good idea , but why is it surprising that the so called "best weapon" in game is indeed the best weapon. I think there is a bigger issue when a 1m weapon outdo a relic.

haub = +2dex/str +5acc/att
ebody = +5dex/str +5acc/att
AV or something body = +10sex/str +10acc/att
PW body = Ares style alternative, +15str +25att blah blah

Dusk hands/feet = +5att, +1 = 1% haste, 6att
AF+1 hands/feet = +2% haste, 2acc/5att
Ares hands/feet = +3% haste, 5acc/att

Well, this is the normal progression you would expect to see, but why not giving AV +15str items, and PW +20str? You're looking at a 1-3% dmg increase. If it's truly a balance issue, you can increase the monster vit by 1% in the next expansion.

None of this is -overpowered-. Hell, they could add 50vit and 25str to a ring, and I would still play the game exactly the same on warrior. The only difference is that it would allow me to shave a few seconds of some fight, and possibly prevent a fluke death occasionally.

I was doing sky/kings when melee cycled through for spirits within and level 75's were a luxury.

I was running low man everything for the last couple years before I quit.

FFXI BLM and RDM are the most brokenly overpowered shit I've ever seen in an online game outside Age of Empires.

There's a reason ToAU shit has mage protection, it becomes a complete joke without it.


edit:

and no, I'm not going to edit the previous post because you're damn straight AV should drop a body with +10sex!

I personally think it's just an impression you got from your environment. I've seen ls where everyone was rng, I've seen ls were everything was zerged with smn, I've seen ls manaburn everything, I've seen ls melee zerg everything they could.....

Manaburn has the advantage of being very simple to build and execute, but again, it's far from being the only efficient (or most efficient) in many situation. In respect to this, I think FFXI is relatively well balanced at this point. Pet job are the only who still have issue finding a role (except the occasional smn zerg against heavy aoe mob)

Also, when you can use blm, you can also use corsair and sch to produce similar number now.

I'd love to see, actually, how Kirin would have been defeated without blms with ele staves, when he would simply resist everything and keep raping. Hell, I remember the early days of Ulli, which simply consisted of kiting and nuking. Again, not having that hefty bonus on damage and resist would make for a slower, and far more lethal battle.

Ranger.

There was a lot of job change around that time, but donMt forget most people didn't had parser back then, and the general knowledge of the game was pretty bad. Melee dps dmg "sucked" until people got parser.

About ulli, it was mostly a kiting fight. If you know how to kite 10min, you know how to kite 15min.

[Vacht]

That's going to happen in every MMO, that's just how it goes, heh.

Universally, yeah, youre totally right. I guess I need to be more precise.

I guess im referring more to the gear elitists.. I remember in DAoC the elitism was founded on skill in pvp, not in the gear you had. WoW and FFXI are the sole proprietors of defining the elite through gear. Im not sure of Aion, eve or current games like WAR or AoC. Ive only played 5 or 6 mmos.

[Kaylia]

I thought nin and /nin was the most overpowered shit ever. They better not even put that shit in 14 or it better not be NEAR as effective. That shit is so stupid that I still can't believe that was in the game and I quit in 2007.

While I agree utsusemi is one of the most game breaking ability (make def and vit obsolete), it's sincerely the only fun aspect of tanking in FFXI since there is no other interaction with the monster.

I can only image how boring it would be to tank a chariot while spamming rampage or raging rush only, and never caring about anything else because healer take care of everything.

Personally, I hope everything in FFXIV will be like utsusemi in a way. Give player stuns and damage mitigation skill they have to time...it could make a very interactive battle system

Universally, yeah, youre totally right. I guess I need to be more precise.

I guess im referring more to the gear elitists.. I remember in DAoC the elitism was founded on skill in pvp, not in the gear you had. WoW and FFXI are the sole proprietors of defining the elite through gear. Im not sure of Aion, eve or current games like WAR or AoC. Ive only played 5 or 6 mmos.

That's not true, someone with good gears who suck will be hated in both WoW and FFXI. If you have full t10 set in wow and pull 3k dps, don't expect nice word from the rest of your team.

Same shit in FFXI (how many time did someone make fun of aegis paladin for being stupid).


Being well geared will get you some nice words, but you have to live up to it with your skill.

[Alderaan]

Now, i haven't really played WoW, but the achievements thing seems really interesting. I had friends that competed against each other to see how many obscure quests they could complete in XI and see who had the most done. This seems like it would be an interesting thing to do between what ever group content XIV is supposed to have. Or possibly as a main aspect if the rewards are not as ridiculously lousy as they were in XI.

[Eaglestrike]

Now, i haven't really played WoW, but the achievements thing seems really interesting. I had friends that competed against each other to see how many obscure quests they could complete in XI and see who had the most done. This seems like it would be an interesting thing to do between what ever group content XIV is supposed to have. Or possibly as a main aspect if the rewards are not as ridiculously lousy as they were in XI.

I believe that's actually something WoW ripped from Warhammer (not sure which other MMO) but I agree, I like the achievement system. It helps keep track of things. Now it can get a bit out of hand with how it is in WoW, i.e. You can only do this event if you ALREADY HAVE THE ACHIEVEMENT FROM DOING IT LOL but that's more player abuse than anything and only bad players play strictly through those things.

[Kaylia]

I think they ripped it off the xbox like everyone.

And I agree, achievement are great for completitionist. Most of it is stuff I would have done anyway, but in some case, it add a fun twist to certain fight.

I really hope there will be something like this in FFXIV

[Vacht]

While I agree utsusemi is one of the most game breaking ability (make def and vit obsolete), it's sincerely the only fun aspect of tanking in FFXI since there is no other interaction with the monster.

I can only image how boring it would be to tank a chariot while spamming rampage or raging rush only, and never caring about anything else because healer take care of everything.

Personally, I hope everything in FFXIV will be like utsusemi in a way. Give player stuns and damage mitigation skill they have to time...it could make a very interactive battle system


That's not true, someone with good gears who suck will be hated in both WoW and FFXI. If you have full t10 set in wow and pull 3k dps, don't expect nice word from the rest of your team.

Same shit in FFXI (how many time did someone make fun of aegis paladin for being stupid).


Being well geared will get you some nice words, but you have to live up to it with your skill.

Damn, totally true.

[miokomioko]

Achievements will ruin things.

Your titles, weapons, armors, items, etc. should act as your only form of achievements. Although I would really like a FF12-style bestiary (codex). :3

[Lovian]

Achievements will ruin things.

Your titles, weapons, armors, items, etc. should act as your only form of achievements. Although I would really like a FF12-style bestiary (codex). :3

ohhh bestiary sounds like a cool idea you could keep track of all your kills. More i think about this the better it sounds :D