Why are you looking forward to FF14?

[wintersquall]

that's a huge thing there - i dont mind leveling slowly, but if i have to sit in the equivalent of jeuno for days on end to level my character, it's gonna be fail.

it'sa all about balance, and wow has hit it as well as a game can. i want a SE FF MMO that doesn't make me angry to be playing it.

[Hyan]

Campaign is epic to you? Do you really feel the enemies pushing on your front line? People hate WoW analogy, but take Icecrown for example. As you progress through quest, the world change, you see both side fighting each other, npc fights with monsters in certain location...etc

Campaign isnt terrible to grind solo xp, but it didn't fulfil players request. It doesnt feel at all like a war.

I feel it's a good method of soloing in a group-based game when you don't have to rely on other people all the time (if you don't want to). I think that's what the players wanted, moreso than the epic battles.

it'sa all about balance, and wow has hit it as well as a game can. i want a SE FF MMO that doesn't make me angry to be playing it.

This is not a bad thing. At least for me, best games are the ones that want to make me throw my controller out of the window- it makes those successful moments even better.

[Kaylia]

That is not what I mean. The game will not be empty, most likely the opposite, but features that WoW does perfectly like UI and whatever you think it does, will not be as good in XIV- simply because making up new stuff is much more time and resource consuming than copying the old. Are you willing to give up some of the more polished stuff for something new? If not, this game might not be what you're wishing for.

What kind of "new stuff" do you think FFXIV will have? They can't reinvent mmo industry. WoW did not reinvent anything in the first place, they simply tweaked existing concept, and I expect the same from FFXIV.

Take traveling time for example. It's just a question of design. Implementing warp item, npc, or spell doesn't really increase the development cost, but it makes major difference on the gameplay.


Something like "phasing" (the world change as you progress) in WoW would take longer to implement obviously, but again, it makes the world much more immersive, but it's something relatively important to tell a story in my opinion and make the world more "alive".

[Kaylia]

I feel it's a good method of soloing in a group-based game when you don't have to rely on other people all the time (if you don't want to). I think that's what the players wanted, moreso than the epic battles.
.

That too, but can you really compared the 4k/h you get in campaign to the 20k/h you can get in party? Was it balanced for every job (the one who had trouble soloing usually had trouble building point).

Campaign is far from the worst thing. I must have farmed 300k points (no idea how much xp), but I can't say it was very fun in overall. The whole system should get an overhaul imo.

[Hyan]

What kind of "new stuff" do you think FFXIV will have? They can't reinvent mmo industry. WoW did not reinvent anything in the first place, they simply tweaked existing concept, and I expect the same from FFXIV.

Take traveling time for example. It's just a question of design. Implementing warp item, npc, or spell doesn't really increase the development cost, but it makes major difference on the gameplay.


Something like "phasing" (the world change as you progress) in WoW would take longer to implement obviously, but again, it makes the world much more immersive, but it's something relatively important to tell a story in my opinion and make the world more "alive".

I'm not talking about reinventing anything, but whatever they're doing with this character progression (and class) system, combat, crafting being a bigger part of the game can be considered something that would take time and resources to develop. Those already sound like SE is shaking the "existing concepts", just look at the combat system- does it really have the twitch-based WoW (and it's clones) feeling to it?

If you think that the "existing concept" means "having a combat system", then yes SE is doing just that, but I think that if the combat system is quite different from the rest it's not just "tweaking the old one". Same goes for character progression, especially if SE wants to go as far as to allow much more limitless customization when it comes to classes, and not just being able to level skills instead of classes. I'd guess that would take more time to develop and tweak than having the same ol' "one character, one class" system in other games. Of course if they went with the traditional system more dev time could be used for other things like UI races and ability to dye your fingernails, but not if they attempted at something at least partially new.

That too, but can you really compared the 4k/h you get in campaign to the 20k/h you can get in party? Was it balanced for every job (the one who had trouble soloing usually had trouble building point).

I don't think it was meant to replace grouping as a method of gaining exp in the first place- just an option to solo in a group based game. I think for a "forced grouping" game, it's quite balanced in the long run.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Just to relive the glory days, shit talking on forums, fierce competition, bullshitting on LS.

[LD]

Honestly? When I first heard FFXI was coming out, I had expectations. They were not met. FFXI is great & everything, but the forced partying and lack of real customization (in terms of ability configuration and adjustment, not simply facial adjustments) were major negatives that the excellent lore/story-telling and beautiful level design only barely made up for. I'm looking forward to FFXIV because they've flat out said they're going to provide more customizable characters and better solo play, the only things FFXI really lacked. Not only are they adding these things, they're keeping the beautiful levels and rich story that kept me playing FFXI for as long as it did. So it's not a matter of whether or not FFXIV will meet my expectations, but how well.

[Kaylia]

I'm not talking about reinventing anything, but whatever they're doing with this character progression (and class) system, combat, crafting being a bigger part of the game can be considered something that would take time and resources to develop. Those already sound like SE is shaking the "existing concepts", just look at the combat system- does it really have the twitch-based WoW (and it's clones) feeling to it?

If you think that the "existing concept" means "having a combat system", then yes SE is doing just that, but I think that if the combat system is quite different from the rest it's not just "tweaking the old one". Same goes for character progression, especially if SE wants to go as far as to allow much more limitless customization when it comes to classes, and not just being able to level skills instead of classes. I'd guess that would take more time to develop and tweak than having the same ol' "one character, one class" system in other games. Of course if they went with the traditional system more dev time could be used for other things like UI races and ability to dye your fingernails, but not if they attempted at something at least partially new.

It does feel different, but to tell the truth, the combat system could be anything, it's the underlying grinding that worry me. How you waste your time is the core aspect of any mmo. The gameplay/control is just something you will learn in the first few weeks, and mindlessly execute for the next 7 years.


Now about the gameplay actually being "different", I will wait for the beta to comment. It's obvious they want to sell the game as being different, but it doesn't mean it will be.

[edit]
What I mean is that most gameplay/progress mechanics are equivalent, even when they are completely different. When I compared it to WoW, I was talking mostly about technical aspect of the game, the stuff that allow you to -play- instead of idling.

I don't think it was meant to replace grouping as a method of gaining exp in the first place- just an option to solo in a group based game. I think for a "forced grouping" game, it's quite balanced in the long run.

Oh, it wasn't meant to be an alternative for sure. It should have though.

That's one of the issue I had with FFXI, your time was definitively not rewarded the same everywhere.

[miokomioko]

1) A fresh start with new everything... I missed the days of just starting in FFXI and not knowing where anything was and just exploring/discovering/etc.

2) Starting from lv.1 with my girlfriend since it was rough to start from scratch this late in XI's life

3) Promise of a beautiful looking game with the franchise I almost always enjoy.

4) What someone mentioned earlier about SE doing things a little different than the typical MMORPG.

[Hyan]

It does feel different, but to tell the truth, the combat system could be anything, it's the underlying grinding that worry me. How you waste your time is the core aspect of any mmo. The gameplay/control is just something you will learn in the first few weeks, and mindlessly execute for the next 7 years.


Now about the gameplay actually being "different", I will wait for the beta to comment. It's obvious they want to sell the game as being different, but it doesn't mean it will be.

[edit]
What I mean is that most gameplay/progress mechanics are equivalent, even when they are completely different. When I compared it to WoW, I was talking mostly about technical aspect of the game, the stuff that allow you to -play- instead of idling.

That's true. However, wasting your time with a "new" system is more refreshing than with an old system you've seen and experienced multiple times before, right? At least if the system is at least semi-good. That said, I think the chance is good that the combat won't get boring as fast as if you played a game with an already familiar combat system.

We don't know how "different" the game will really be, but if it happens to be quite different, don't be surprised if there is a setback for that in a form of other features not being as polished. When you don't take the old and tweak it a bit, you find unseen issues that you couldn't predict before. That's why I think that looking for equivalent is too much asked, if the systems really are new and innovative. No system is perfect at the time of release, and maybe even few years down the road, depending on the issues that arise. When you take the old and tweak it, the issues have already been found and solutions figured out, so it's not really a fair comparison to make.

Oh, it wasn't meant to be an alternative for sure. It should have though.

That's one of the issue I had with FFXI, your time was definitively not rewarded the same everywhere.

I disagree. We already have enough solo-MMO's around that I find it better to encourage group play while not completely overlooking solo play. If you make the two equivalent exp-gain wise, that is not a balance- that is favoring solo play.

I like grouping in my MMO's, but if there is no incentive I most likely won't bother because of the bad aspects of it (like other people). Like let's say for an example Ballista in XI; I liked it, but didn't really do it much because there was no incentive. It's the same thing with grouping. That's why I don't think the two should be equivalent, and the ratio in XI was pretty much perfect (exp gain wise, not talking about the system itself).

We'll be getting more solo-MMO's in the future, so I don't think it would be much asked if there were still few games that still favored group play.

[Kaylia]

That's true. However, wasting your time with a "new" system is more refreshing than with an old system you've seen and experienced multiple times before, right? At least if the system is at least semi-good. That said, I think the chance is good that the combat won't get boring as fast as if you played a game with an already familiar combat system.

Personally, the system has very little to do with my enjoyment. It's the exploration and storyline that I'm looking forward. It could be a turn based game, an action game, an hack and slash...I would approach the game the same way. I left FFXI 5 months ago because it was getting stales. The only content I hadnt "explored" was AV and PW, and it's not because I didn't want (gathering anything above 18ppl was a pain).



Concerning the polishment, most issues I had with FFXI were designs issue that could (unless their spaghetti code was that bad) have been fixed relatively easily. I'm confident that my expectation are things that don't require a crazy amount of time and money. If it's just a question of game design, I will hold them responsible (especially after the 7 years beta test they had on us with FFXI). if it involve creating complex content, I will compare it to other mmo around.

I disagree. We already have enough solo-MMO's around that I find it better to encourage group play while not completely overlooking solo play. If you make the two equivalent exp-gain wise, that is not a balance- that is favoring solo play.

I like grouping in my MMO's, but if there is no incentive I most likely won't bother because of the bad aspects of it (like other people). Like let's say for an example Ballista in XI; I liked it, but didn't really do it much because there was no incentive. It's the same thing with grouping. That's why I don't think the two should be equivalent, and the ratio in XI was pretty much perfect (exp gain wise, not talking about the system itself).

We'll be getting more solo-MMO's in the future, so I don't think it would be much asked if there were still few games that still favored group play.

I wasnt saying to make them equals, but 4k vs 20k is still a huge gap. Make it at least equals to BLM solo xp in zhayolm.

I have many issue with the xp system. In group, alone, in campaign, it always sucked. I love grouping, and I think it's one thing they shouldnt get ride of, but the way it was done should have been different (at 75 at least). First of all, make something about the fucking collibri (or mamool). Exp should be done in more than one camp (especially when the world is huge).

Another thing that confused me is why I wasnt rewarded for helping people? Helping random people doing CoP mission gave me nothing (1k xp is laughable considering the amount of time you spend). Why can't I get 20k worth of xp for the 2 hours I spent helping them? Why is it so hard to form a party to one of the less popular (rewarding) assault, campaigns ops or MMM? There is many content that could have been turned into "xp" (or something equally rewarding).

I do agree with you when you say you want to make it a "team based game", but for the love of god, don't limit it to the mindless activity of murdering hoard of collibris when there is so many unused stuff.

[Meko]

I'm looking forward to a very modernized Final Fantasy MMO. I've been playing WoW off and on for about the past year and whenever I log back into to FFXI, I realize how dated it is. From the graphics (which aren't too bad really) to the horrid UI (which never really bothered me much) to the character movements and flow of the NPC movement (which never really bothered me either). Things I'm looking forward to in FF14:

1) Better guild/linkshell system. Set permissions etc like WoW does with their guild but also guild progression and benefits like EQ2 has.

2) Easier way to make money. Some sort of simpler option to craft "uber" items that don't require a group of 18 to kill/obtain only for the synth to break and the rare/uber item be lost.

3) Freedom during non-party times. I don't want to sit in my moghouse and spin in circles for hours while I await a party.

4) More instanced monsters/areas. I was never a fan of this much until I played WoW. One of the coolest features in WoW are the instances imo. This gives everybody a shot at least. To hell with sitting in Dragon's Aery with 200 people trying to claim a dragon for 3 hours. While it provided epic moments, it was a lot of investment. Side note: I'd still like to see world mobs though that spawn irregularly on their own time and not be instanced.

Thing's I don't want to see in FF14:

1) The use of the word 'epic'. It's so overdone in WoW that it pisses me off.

2) The WoW player community. WoW is loaded with 10-50 year olds acting like douchebags and only caring for themselves. Openly calling people noobs, guild hopping and stirring the trade chat into a frenzy of shit.

3) Invalid content. I use WoW as the prime example but they literally cut out a ton of their own game with the progression they use. I'm hoping 14 doesn't do that.

[Kaylia]

3) Freedom during non-party times. I don't want to sit in my moghouse and spin in circles for hours while I await a party.

Am I the only one who run lap in whitegate instead? I was running forth and back the in whitegate (from the palace to alzhabi entrance) for hours when I was in "idle mode" waiting for something to happens.

2) The WoW player community. WoW is loaded with 10-50 year olds acting like douchebags and only caring for themselves. Openly calling people noobs, guild hopping and stirring the trade chat into a frenzy of shit.

Good luck. FFXI is old. A good chunk of the fanbase was old when we started, and 7 years later, we matured even more. If the next FF pull in the casual players (like they will try), expect the same retardation.

I really wish the absence of PvP and a decent "claim system" will improve the courtesy, but I will be surprised if it actually happen.

3) Invalid content. I use WoW as the prime example but they literally cut out a ton of their own game with the progression they use. I'm hoping 14 doesn't do that.

Just bring them back occasionaly (like they did with onyxia and naxx)...but personally, content need to be outdated at some point. I'm not proud to say I wasted over 40 days of my life in the same zone, doing the same mindless task.

[Meko]

I'm not saying I don't want new content but what I'm saying is that I don't want to simply bypass the content. If you were to start in WoW right now, you wouldn't do any raids @ 60 or 70 because there is no point. At least in XI, there is gear all around to be obtained in old content and new. It doesn't nullify it like it does in WoW.

[Hyan]

Personally, the system has very little to do with my enjoyment. It's the exploration and storyline that I'm looking forward. It could be a turn based game, an action game, an hack and slash...I would approach the game the same way. I left FFXI 5 months ago because it was getting stales. The only content I hadnt "explored" was AV and PW, and it's not because I didn't want (gathering anything above 18ppl was a pain).

Concerning the polishment, most issues I had with FFXI were designs issue that could (unless their spaghetti code was that bad) have been fixed relatively easily. I'm confident that my expectation are things that don't require a crazy amount of time and money. If it's just a question of game design, I will hold them responsible (especially after the 7 years beta test they had on us with FFXI). if it involve creating complex content, I will compare it to other mmo around.

So, what you look forward to in games is the world, and not the game itself? I understand where you're coming from. Only story and gameplay that is immersive will keep me hooked up in a game. However, the story has to be real good that I can deal with poor gameplay. However, if the gameplay is good, I can deal with a sucky story, as long as it's there.

The most important thing for me, personally, is how fun I find the gameplay and how good the story might be. The problem is, if I've already seen similar gameplay in other games, it's not nearly as fun as if I was presented something new and refreshing. That's why I can deal with issues, because those are pretty much inevitable when making up something new instead of reworking the old. Maybe that's why I don't see XI as a bad game, or SE as a bad developer, even after 6½ years of XI.

I hope you've thought of every perspective when thinking of the issues you had with XI. Most of the time, at least as far as I've noticed, people talk about some of the issues in XI like they'd be easier to fix than they really are. It's because they can't think of things from other perspective than their own. For every problem I had with XI (aside from the very small ones), I could not figure out a way to fix things that would appeal to everyone. Solutions people suggested were, with almost no exceptions, flawed in one way or the other. So, I'm quite skeptical that those design issues would have been fixed that "easily", but it's not like I've thought of everything. It might be possible, but I haven't figured out a solution at least.

I wasnt saying to make them equals, but 4k vs 20k is still a huge gap. Make it at least equals to BLM solo xp in zhayolm.

I have many issue with the xp system. In group, alone, in campaign, it always sucked. I love grouping, and I think it's one thing they shouldnt get ride of, but the way it was done should have been different (at 75 at least). First of all, make something about the fucking collibri (or mamool). Exp should be done in more than one camp (especially when the world is huge).

Another thing that confused me is why I wasnt rewarded for helping people? Helping random people doing CoP mission gave me nothing (1k xp is laughable considering the amount of time you spend). Why can't I get 20k worth of xp for the 2 hours I spent helping them? Why is it so hard to form a party to one of the less popular (rewarding) assault, campaigns ops or MMM? There is many content that could have been turned into "xp" (or something equally rewarding).

I do agree with you when you say you want to make it a "team based game", but for the love of god, don't limit it to the mindless activity of murdering hoard of collibris when there is so many unused stuff.

I disagree that SE limited the exping, but it was the players who did it. The game offers many camps that can be used to exp, but only the best ones are used. And there will always be "best camps" no matter what you do, and the players will go there. Only the mindset of most players was the limiting factor (although SE could have made few alterations to monster placement and location in some areas, which would have helped, although the problem would have still existed). In the end, players will only do what is the most efficient method, be it colibri, weapons in sky or campaign. There's really not too much SE can do about that.

As for not giving out exp for everything, that is again something that might not be an issue to you, but it is to SE. Players are already leveling "too fast", at least that's what SE seems to think, and they don't want to make that issue bigger than it is already. Make everything give out 20k exp, and players will catch up to content even faster than they already are, which makes them bored faster (nothing to do = quit) and they'll lose subscriptions. However, make the activities different from each other, and doing one activity will not make you finish the other activities. If you could finish all the activities by doing just one, that'd mean less playtime to "finish" the game, and for obvious reasons that's something SE wants to avoid.

It's not really a concern to you, of course, but from SE's perspective, it can't be overlooked. You can disagree with their decision, but to me at least, it makes sense.

Just bring them back occasionaly (like they did with onyxia and naxx)...but personally, content need to be outdated at some point. I'm not proud to say I wasted over 40 days of my life in the same zone, doing the same mindless task.

IMO content should be outdated when you finish it, not when some better content is released so you don't have to do the old one anymore. But that's just my opinion.

[Kaylia]

I'm not saying I don't want new content but what I'm saying is that I don't want to simply bypass the content. If you were to start in WoW right now, you wouldn't do any raids @ 60 or 70 because there is no point. At least in XI, there is gear all around to be obtained in old content and new. It doesn't nullify it like it does in WoW.

That's kinda funny you bring this, because some of the best time I had in WoW was from soloing old content, and in a few case, low manning. It was actually challenging (I had to learn the encounter), and very satisfying. Not to mention you still make a shitload of money (karazhan solo is like 500-1000g).

If you don't outdate content, you will eventually reach a point where everything is minor sidegrade no one give a fuck about. I think on a long run, it hurts the game a lot more. It doesnt have to be as drastic as WoW (one day, it's the best gears, the next day, it's poop), but you need a certain progression.

As for repeating the content, don't you get tired of doing the same events all the time? Or maybe it eventually become a bad habit like smoking, and you need to do your weekly dynamis. >_>

[Cureslime]

FFXI was highly addictive and fun for awhile but it failed on so many levels that I want to play a similar game with all the failure removed. S-E knows this which is why they kept the character classes exactly the same.

[Kaylia]

So, what you look forward to in games is the world, and not the game itself? I understand where you're coming from. Only story and gameplay that is immersive will keep me hooked up in a game. However, the story has to be real good that I can deal with poor gameplay. However, if the gameplay is good, I can deal with a sucky story, as long as it's there.

The most important thing for me, personally, is how fun I find the gameplay and how good the story might be. The problem is, if I've already seen similar gameplay in other games, it's not nearly as fun as if I was presented something new and refreshing. That's why I can deal with issues, because those are pretty much inevitable when making up something new instead of reworking the old. Maybe that's why I don't see XI as a bad game, or SE as a bad developer, even after 6½ years of XI.

I hope you've thought of every perspective when thinking of the issues you had with XI. Most of the time, at least as far as I've noticed, people talk about some of the issues in XI like they'd be easier to fix than they really are. It's because they can't think of things from other perspective than their own. For every problem I had with XI (aside from the very small ones), I could not figure out a way to fix things that would appeal to everyone. Solutions people suggested were, with almost no exceptions, flawed in one way or the other. So, I'm quite skeptical that those design issues would have been fixed that "easily", but it's not like I've thought of everything. It might be possible, but I haven't figured out a solution at least.

"Not the game itself" isn't really accurate. Exploring the world is a part of the gameplay. There is more to a game than the battle mechanics. However, to be more precise, maybe I should have said "exploring the gameplay". The game interest me as long there is something I havent seen, fought or experimented. I get bored when the game has nothing left but grinding (or extremely time consumming objective).



I've done a lot of programming, and because of this, I think have a good idea of what can and cannot be done. Of course, I don't know the exact situation they are in, but I understand the difference between tweaking a script, and adding something that change the gameplay. Many request are unrealistic, while other are easily doable. That said, it's not an excuse for shitty content. If something can't be done, you shouldnt make an half assed implementation. You should find something else instead.


And yes, I agree many solutions that are proposed are flawed and have huge drawback. However, when I propose a solution, I generally try to understand the impact it would have on everyone, and on the amount of time the player will spend doing what (you cant simply hand everything to the players, they will just leave when there is nothing to look forward).

I disagree that SE limited the exping, but it was the players who did it. The game offers many camps that can be used to exp, but only the best ones are used. And there will always be "best camps" no matter what you do, and the players will go there. Only the mindset of most players was the limiting factor (although SE could have made few alterations to monster placement and location in some areas, which would have helped, although the problem would have still existed). In the end, players will only do what is the most efficient method, be it colibri, weapons in sky or campaign. There's really not too much SE can do about that.

As for not giving out exp for everything, that is again something that might not be an issue to you, but it is to SE. Players are already leveling "too fast", at least that's what SE seems to think, and they don't want to make that issue bigger than it is already. Make everything give out 20k exp, and players will catch up to content even faster than they already are, which makes them bored faster (nothing to do = quit) and they'll lose subscriptions. However, make the activities different from each other, and doing one activity will not make you finish the other activities. That means less playtime to "finish" the game, and for obvious reasons that's something SE wants to avoid.

It's not really a concern to you, of course, but from SE's perspective, it can't be overlooked

The players will always do what is the most efficient. I agree. However, I'm blamming SE for making certain thing much more efficient than other. It wouldn't be hard to tweak xp gain at 75 and make 7 or 8 zone where it's possible to get 20-25k xp/hours. There is virtually no reason to fight monsters in outside area, so you're left with huge zone where nothing happen. Player care about balance up to a certain point, but after this, everything become equals.


Is the player really going to cap faster if you hand xp everywhere? I don't think so. Instead of constantly joining merit party for buffer and xp, he would help people for mission or do unpopular content, something he was not doing before. In other word, he would just xp somewhere else.

If we were serious about implementing the idea and had the actual number SE have, I'm sure we could balance the xp gain without having a big impact on the current game.


Also, keep in mind most endgame players don't have capped merit. Some do for all their job, but most only have 1 or 2 jobs maxed (if none). So even if there was a slight boost in xp, the actual impact would be absorbed by the merit system.

[Kaylia]

FFXI was highly addictive and fun for awhile but it failed on so many levels that I want to play a similar game with all the failure removed. S-E knows this which is why they kept the character classes exactly the same.

That was sarcasm?

[BardonGaruda]

I'm looking forward to a modern MMO with all the things that go along with it, good graphics, UI etc. that actually has a story.

One thing I love about FFXI is through missions/quests getting to know some of the back story behind the NPCs rather than them just being the NPC for this or that.

The two thing I'm looking forward to most though are:

1) The number of people that I knew from when I started FFXI who quit but are going to pick up FFXIV. Will be good seeing them again.

2) Starting from scratch a brand new MMO with all my friends from my current linkshell.