Rules of Love (A No Right Answer Thread!)

[isladar]

I had a fairly long argument last night regarding my friend's announcement that he has been considering proposing to his girlfriend. Or is it ex-girlfriend? I'm not sure, as they've recently sort-of reconciled after a "I need time to think about things" speech from her. Evidently she began dropping hints about engagement, and he feels that if he doesn't act now, he'll regret it later.

Neither of them are in any kind of viable financial circumstances. I got incredibly angry hearing about it, as the entire situation smacked of something that would be somewhat expected (but still fucking retarded) from 18-year-olds, but people in their late twenties? Good god.


My queries to BG are this:

- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

I do not feel you should ask someone to marry you until you know unequivocally that you intend to marry them, and are prepared to set a date, etc. I feel people use "Will you marry me?" when they've devalued "I love you" so much that they have to up the ante, and engagement becomes a sort of Boyfriend Plus.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

I do not believe you can truly love someone from a place of lack. Yes, your partner is going to be and inspire things in you that you cannot provide individually, but love is not need. I certainly need the things I love, but equating the two concepts seems reprehensible. It makes a commodity of someone else.

- If you are married, or are currently or have been engaged, what do you feel are the wrong reasons for entering into such an arrangement? And the right reasons?

I feel my friend in particular is entering into this to coddle insecurities of his girlfriend. If being there for her and being loyal and loving her was not enough to assuage them as her boyfriend, how is a ring going to change that? You cannot make anyone feel anything, and if she hasn't been willing to let go of feeling shitty about herself, there is nothing he can do to change that.


Thank you, I'm very interested to see BG's input.

For the curious, Rules of Courtly Love, Andreas Capellanus for an old-school but still viable look at love.

[Tyche]

I got engaged (after 2 years of dating) when I was 18. We were engaged for ~7 years before we get married. We didn't set a date for a couple of reasons, most importantly, financial. We had to foot the bill for the wedding, and 2 broke ass college kids weren't ponying up that kind of cash. We could have just went to the court house and spent $50 and called it (and she was content with that), but I wanted a wedding. In retrospect, I regret that. I wish we'd have spend the thousands of dollars from the wedding on a nice European vacation.

If you're getting married to keep your partner around and secure, then it's likely not going to end well. People have to realize that you need to treat marriage like a career. You have to work at it, it doesn't just work itself out for 50+ years.

[Delirium]

- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

Dating in general is a "trial run". Generally, you date and as your relationship progresses you spend more time with each other. Eventually you share a place. Through this whole process you see if you actually like the person, including their bad habits. Does it matter if you get engaged after the first date or after 7 years of living together? Not really. Ultimately an engagement is saying I want to eventually marry you. Dating is fundamentally the same thing.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

Not at all. You can embrace the differences in your partner, but being with them won't make you more like them. The only way to fill an absence in yourself is to make the decision to change yourself.

If you are married, or are currently or have been engaged, what do you feel are the wrong reasons for entering into such an arrangement? And the right reasons?

Haven't been either, but seeing friends and relatives get married and then divorced I can name a few.
-the desire to be with someone because you feel the need to be in a relationship
-convincing yourself the person is right for you when all you do is complain about them
-convince yourself the person you are with is a good person because they treat you well when they are an asshole/bitch to everyone else
-staying with someone because you have been with them for so long already and it is easier than starting over

as for the right reasons, who knows? Love is a weird thing that can't be quantified or otherwise measured. You just kind of know you are in love. That being said, relationships are a lot of work and compromise.

I forget the exact quote but it was something like: writers have always been writing about love but no one can truly write about love.

basically saying even if you write about yourself or others being in love, you can only capture a piece of it on paper.

[Mizango]

If you're getting married to keep your partner around and secure, then it's likely not going to end well. People have to realize that you need to treat marriage like a career. You have to work at it, it doesn't just work itself out for 50+ years.

^ This is absolute fact.

[aduidarnenye]

I think if you wait until the absolute perfect moment you are going to miss out on something that could be really great. If you want absolute financial stability before someone gets married there would not be many marriages (especially in the last year).

[Acturus]

- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

Not so much any more. Engagements today are different because courtship is different. I was living with my girlfriend for almost a year before we got engaged. Nowadays, it seems like an engagement is "the period of time between the proposal and the wedding while you plan the wedding" and nothing more significant.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

Not in my case. I like who I am, and the life that I lead regardless of whether or not I have a partner to share that with. I was lucky enough, however, to find someone who liked me almost as much as I like myself, and who shared similar life-goals, and who was willing to put up with me as much as I was willing to put up with her.

- If you are married, or are currently or have been engaged, what do you feel are the wrong reasons for entering into such an arrangement? And the right reasons?

The only true way to do it wrong in my opinion is to get into the arrangement in any situation where each person may have a different opinion of what's going on. Honest, up front communication is key to a relationship, and a marriage proposal is no different than discussing kids, getting a joint bank account, or anal sex.

If all you want to do is get married for the tax break, great. If you both want an open relationship but a ring on your fingers to please your parents, go for it. But make sure both people understand the extent of what each other views the marriage as, and then make sure you're okay with what your partner's opinions are.

-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-


I agree with your assessment of your friend. Dude doesn't want to let go, and is going along with commitment to hang on to what he has.

Marriage often does change the dynamic of a relationship, and if he's not prepared for that, or if there are any unresolved issues in the relationship, those issues can potentially get much much worse after the papers are signed.

[zoobernut]

I am going to agree with pretty much everything Tyche said. I was with my wife for 3 years (living together for 2.5 years) when I proposed. We did not set a date though as she had just graduated from college and I was still in school. We agreed to set a date as soon as I graduated. She worked very hard and had a good job and supported me through school (with help from my parents too) and then 6 months after I graduated we set a date and began planning. By the time we got married we had been together 7 years and living together for 6.5 years.

The reason it worked for us to do it that way is that we both knew we would be together, a wedding was more of a formality and something that my wife had wanted to experience for a long time. It was also a way to share with our families as we are both very close to our families.

[Elesirdur]

Just to add a short point about the "love fills an inadequacy" bit:

Love is what makes life all that little better; it's the frosting, not the cake itself. Love is what makes each day a little better than the last, not what makes the day period. It cannot be a crutch and a complete focus for one's life. That it is pretty unhealthy to make anything in your life so central to your happiness (be it your partner, your job, a hobby, a pet, etc) seems to be a simple thing to know, but it's all to easy to let it happen in our busy world.

As for making up for inadequacies of one's own, that's still kind of messed up. It's great if two people can grow together and learn to play off each others strengths and support their weaknesses; I think this is part of any successful relationship. But seeking out someone to "balance you out" isn't exactly romantic, to say the lest.

[Takedown3]

a: im engaged and have been for 3 years, we have no wedding date set, we have one kid who happens to be almost 4 and is too much off a handful to worry about that shit. not to mention mortgage payments and bills (student loans /fist)



b: my wifey told me she loved me while i was 6 inches deep, coincidentally any other girls who have said the 3 magic words have all had my penis inserted in them. this in itself might have some secret magic answers of life and the universe. we do love each other but with every passing day its less passion more gettin shit paid (i.e. marriage)

c: funny story behind my engagement, i had the ring for a while, my mom gave it to me as it was her mothers and was actually quite nice. we were moving from our old place to our newly purchased house and as the wifey and her bro were packing shit up they found the ring, well he did, and he asked the wifey "hey whats this shit". wifey was like oh fuck put that back where u found it i know what that is.

of course i didnt here about this until after i proposed which is where the funny starts.

so i had this old ex on msn and she just got her webcam setup and wanted to test it out and of course me having a penis requested her she show me her tits. was np as she proceeded to flash the massive jugs at me, next was the full show. so obviously my dick is rock hard and im thinking with it and not my real head.

she just happens to be coming to my current town to "party" with her friends and she invites me to get a blow job in her new nissan maxima "sayin ever get head in a nissan before?". this all happened a few mins after i shut the webchat down so its text onry atm. this also happens to be the exact time the wife comes in and starts yappin about some shit.

obviously being computer savvy i alt tabbed with great prejudice however all of my windows were tiled at the time so she was able to catch the "head in a nissan" part. she trips and peels out i run after her and show her the ring and say "let's get married ko?"

so ya funny story. or sad? u choose.

probably doesnt help your situation but its fun to share.

[isladar]

Thank you, I really appreciate the responses, especially from people who've had long long long engagements. It seems that all of the mentioned circumstances were done with a lot of communication, which is, to me, about the same thing as saying "Here is a fixed date".

I did want to comment on this:

I think if you wait until the absolute perfect moment you are going to miss out on something that could be really great. If you want absolute financial stability before someone gets married there would not be many marriages (especially in the last year).

Of course there is not absolutely perfect moment, financially or otherwise. However, there is such a thing as a Type I error, and doing something because "Well what if it I regret it if I don't" seems like a terrible reason to commit yourself to something that should be an arrangement that is an expression of being able to ask someone to spend the rest of their life with you, because you're offering the rest of your life to them.

There is no by-the-numbers method to the procedure of finding and marrying the person you love. What I do find immensely insulting is using that arrangement to facilitate some sort of 'security' that isn't present right now. I told him that the person to say yes to that kind of proposal is the exactly what he deserves, regardless of whether he initiates the move or if she supposedly 'wants it' by hinting at such.

And salient detail that I forgot to mention: This woman (girl, let's be honest) refuses to give the guy a blowjob. This fact is being saved for my last-ditch trump card if he doesn't pull his head out of his ass. CONGRATULATIONS, YOU'RE NEVER GETTING BLOWN AGAIN.

[Tyche]

obviously being computer savvy i alt tabbed with great prejudice however all of my windows were tiled at the time so she was able to catch the "head in a nissan" part. she trips and peels out i run after her and show her the ring and say "let's get married ko?"

QOTD

[Brill Weave]

I'm a big fan of people living together before marriage. If you've never lived with your potential husband/wife you don't know how being with them 24/7 is going to work. You may get together and realize you hate the things said person does. It's alright for an engagement with no set date. As long as they are at least progressing in their relationship. From what it sounds like it seems like your friend got hit with the shit or get off the pot line of thinking. Not a good start. Isla you need to jump him so he sees what he will be missing.

[Cadsuane]

Are you usually sappy like this? I'm not familiar with the Isladar personality cult thing.

My queries to BG are this:

- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

Yeah, I agree with what you said. Indefinite engagements would have an air of disingenuity about them, but then again so do most marriages.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

I guess it could be, but that's hardly ideal isn't it? My conception of these things is that any romantic or platonic relationship built on having iniquities in common isn't a very good one, but there are people who live their whole lives like that because they're afraid of dying alone.

- If you are married, or are currently or have been engaged, what do you feel are the wrong reasons for entering into such an arrangement? And the right reasons?

I'm aware that this question isn't directed at me having never been engaged, but neither have my parents and their relationship seems to me to be a pretty good example for what two professional adults with a family should look like. Not that I'm really in danger of doing so at the moment, but I never intend to get married because I think it's a shitty prerequisite for starting a family (I guess this thread can be said to be about the inherent problem in honestly appraising your intentions via proposal after all), and as a legal institution I don't trust the state to make normative judgments on how to run one.

[Abraxas]

funny. im going to be proposing to my girlfriend pretty soon, just waiting for the ring to get done.

We've been dating for 2.5 years, and i knew 2.4 years ago i was going to marry her, and she felt the same. she was finishing college, and she got a new job, so things were kind of hectic to have gotten engaged then. but since mortgage rates were so low, we bought a house. but again, we knew we were committed to each for the long run.

I agree with Brill that you should live with the person you intend to marry, because you dont truly know if you can live with them. when my girlfriend was at college, i spent the weekends there, so we pretty much knew each others living habits before got the house.

[Mojo]

I can see this falling into one of two major possibilities.

Case 1: The quick engagement upon reuniting isn't that uncommon. Often people split up to because they feel the need to go and see what else life has to offer (this is healthy and everybody owes it to themselves to do this at some point), but then return to eachother because it turns out that what they had was actually pretty good. For instance, a friend of mine split up with her boyfriend (also a friend of mine) because she felt that need. A year or two later they got back together and within a month conceived a child and were engaged. I can honestly say that out of all of the people I know, their marriage is the most healthy and they're the most happy because they afforded themselves this distance.

Case 2: Marriage is being used as a crutch for the relationship. I've also had a pair of friends that are in this situation. Don't get me wrong, I knew even before they did that they were right for eachother, and I still believe this, it's just that their relationship just isn't healthy because of the choices they've made. They met in highschool and dated off and on since then. Their relationship was pretty good until he broke up with her because he felt it was getting too serious. This made her feel insecure and was the turning point in the health of their relationship. They got back together eventually, but from that point on she was always very jealous of everyone that gave him attention, even his guy friends. Later on, she made him choose between the band and her (perfectly understandable because he was touring all the time and thus not around that much), and he chose her. However, that insecurity just doesn't go away because of a decision like that. It's something that needs to be worked out, they should have gone to counseling at this point. What he did instead was propose to her to try and use marriage as some sort of band-aid to her insecurities. It worked for about 6 months, but now they're back in the same situation except they're married (it still feels like they're dating to me, honestly.)

Either way, it's hard to say without knowing them, although engagement after being reunited after such a short time isn't always a bad decision. In case 1, it's clearly the best decision my friend ever made. Case 2, one of the worst (getting counseling now is going to be harder and without it they won't ever truly be happy.) Finances are the last thing to consider in a situation like this, they can always elope or post pone the actual marriage until they can afford it.

In response to your specific queries-

- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

A healthy engagement can represent many things. For most of the people posting in this thread, engagement was committing to eachother in a more serious way and has certainly worked out. It really depends on the situation, having some sort of preconceived notion about what engagement should be is retarded.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

There is no simple answer to this question, but in most cases no. Love is as natural as any other emotion. Going from a Darwinian perspective, you could say that the purpose for love is that it's a survival tool as human offspring require immense care and a couple can provide better care for their offspring. That's somewhat abstract though. There are definitely people out there who try and fill some void by attaching themselves to another person though. Those people make me feel uneasy.

- If you are married, or are currently or have been engaged, what do you feel are the wrong reasons for entering into such an arrangement? And the right reasons?

There are wrong reasons (i.e. using it as some sort of relationship crtuch), but again there definitely isn't a list of "right reasons." I am not married or engaged, however.

Anyways, again, it all depends on the situation. If she has a history of being a needy person then there is a good chance it's a bad decision, but considering that she split up with him to "get out and explore", it doesn't sound like that's the case.

[Mohoss]

funny. im going to be proposing to my girlfriend pretty soon, just waiting for the ring to get done.

We've been dating for 2.5 years, and i knew 2.4 years ago i was going to marry her, and she felt the same. she was finishing college, and she got a new job, so things were kind of hectic to have gotten engaged then. but since mortgage rates were so low, we bought a house. but again, we knew we were committed to each for the long run.

I agree with Brill that you should live with the person you intend to marry, because you dont truly know if you can live with them. when my girlfriend was at college, i spent the weekends there, so we pretty much knew each others living habits before got the house.

I'm in pretty much the exact same situation with slightly different minor details. I've been with my girl friend for almost 1.5 years, and I've known that I was going to marry her 1.4 years ago, and she also feels the same. We are both in college and intend to get married after we graduate. Engagement is more of a formality at this point because we know we're going to be together. We plan on getting engaged either junior or senior year. Probably junior year.

Same thing about spending weekends/breaks together and knowing each others living habits, so living together won't be a problem.

[BerenTebogo]

Thank you, I really appreciate the responses, especially from people who've had long long long engagements. It seems that all of the mentioned circumstances were done with a lot of communication, which is, to me, about the same thing as saying "Here is a fixed date".

I did want to comment on this:



Of course there is not absolutely perfect moment, financially or otherwise. However, there is such a thing as a Type I error, and doing something because "Well what if it I regret it if I don't" seems like a terrible reason to commit yourself to something that should be an arrangement that is an expression of being able to ask someone to spend the rest of their life with you, because you're offering the rest of your life to them.

There is no by-the-numbers method to the procedure of finding and marrying the person you love. What I do find immensely insulting is using that arrangement to facilitate some sort of 'security' that isn't present right now. I told him that the person to say yes to that kind of proposal is the exactly what he deserves, regardless of whether he initiates the move or if she supposedly 'wants it' by hinting at such.

And salient detail that I forgot to mention: This woman (girl, let's be honest) refuses to give the guy a blowjob. This fact is being saved for my last-ditch trump card if he doesn't pull his head out of his ass. CONGRATULATIONS, YOU'RE NEVER GETTING BLOWN AGAIN.

The cicrumstances indicate that they are not reay to be married, but who knows.

Caiti and I got engaged without a date years ago and when we were ready, we got married. I disagree with the engagement -> date system because I think the idea of spending tens of thousands of dollars planning the wedding, so you can start off your new life fresh in debt, is just silly.

Our wedding was nice and small, neither caiti nor I would have had it any other way.

People say that a bride looks back on her wedding as the happiest day of her life. Isn't the point of getting married that every day is the happiest day of your life?

If they are stressed about the wedding or feeling pressured they are most assuredly doing it wrong, but good luck convincing a guy who is marrying a girl for a blow job.

[Kryssan]

My queries to BG are this:

- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

I do not feel you should ask someone to marry you until you know unequivocally that you intend to marry them, and are prepared to set a date, etc. I feel people use "Will you marry me?" when they've devalued "I love you" so much that they have to up the ante, and engagement becomes a sort of Boyfriend Plus.

It's something I've been seeing more and more of lately. People feeling that they must get married to continue their relationships. I don't understand that mentality at all.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

I do not believe you can truly love someone from a place of lack. Yes, your partner is going to be and inspire things in you that you cannot provide individually, but love is not need. I certainly need the things I love, but equating the two concepts seems reprehensible. It makes a commodity of someone else.

I'd agree with that statement.

- If you are married, or are currently or have been engaged, what do you feel are the wrong reasons for entering into such an arrangement? And the right reasons?

I feel my friend in particular is entering into this to coddle insecurities of his girlfriend. If being there for her and being loyal and loving her was not enough to assuage them as her boyfriend, how is a ring going to change that? You cannot make anyone feel anything, and if she hasn't been willing to let go of feeling shitty about herself, there is nothing he can do to change that.

I've not been married, but I've definitely seen plenty of marriages collapse. In all the worst possible ways. People tend to keep this idea that they can have everything their parents have but right now, and moreover that getting married will 'fix' any problems their relationship currently has. They seem to forget that their parents didn't get that stuff overnight, and it applies to relationships too. And hell, a lot of our parents didn't get it right on the first try marriage either. I'm not really sure what's been generating these concepts, but its pretty sad. From my perspective it seems that marriage is becoming more and more of a bandaid for relationships, and not surprisingly, it doesn't work very well in that application.

[zoobernut]

I'm in pretty much the exact same situation with slightly different minor details. I've been with my girl friend for almost 1.5 years, and I've known that I was going to marry her 1.4 years ago, and she also feels the same. We are both in college and intend to get married after we graduate. Engagement is more of a formality at this point because we know we're going to be together. We plan on getting engaged either junior or senior year. Probably junior year.

Same thing about spending weekends/breaks together and knowing each others living habits, so living together won't be a problem.

I don't want to scare you or say that you can't tell if you will be ok living with someone BUT spending "weekends/breaks" together is NOT living together. I highly suggest living together if at all possible before you propose or decide that you will spend the rest of your lives together. Living with someone is very different and extremely intimate and you will encounter things living together that would never happen on weekends or breaks.

Living with someone can be tough even with the person you love. Even now there are things that my wife and I clash on some things after 7 years living together.

Edit: To clarify living with someone is always, you are with them through good and bad. When you talk about breaks/weekends it is different because those are like little mini vacations from normal life you have a tendency to be much happier and more amicable to different things then normal. Living with someone means you can't run away if you get stressed out.

It is difficult when your significant other is having a really tough time or is frustrated or angry about something. This will often lead to an argument or tension between you even if they are not mad at you. When you live together your emotions get bounced off each other constantly.

[Diamicles]

Basically my one principle about love and marriage:

Don't settle for someone you can live with, find the someone you can't live without.

Also, as suggested earlier, living together is more of a trial marriage than engagement could ever be. When you live together and a fight/disagreement arises, you can't just go back to your place and not worry about it, you will eventually have to come home and face the problem that caused the situation.

The first thing to realize about marriage is that you both will facing any problems you have individually together, if you don't feel comfortable taking your spouse 'to battle' with you (for lack of a better term) and truly feel like you can overcome just about anything then it probably isn't going to work out.

edit: for the record, I have been married for 6+ years, and have lived with my wife for 9.