Rules of Love (A No Right Answer Thread!)

[BerenTebogo]

Basically my one principle about love and marriage:

Don't settle for someone you can live with, find the someone you can't live without.

Also, as suggested earlier, living together is more of a trial marriage than engagement could ever be. When you live together and a fight/disagreement arises, you can't just go back to your place and not worry about it, you will eventually have to come home and face the problem that caused the situation.

The first thing to realize about marriage is that you both will facing any problems you have individually together, if you don't feel comfortable taking your spouse 'to battle' with you (for lack of a better term) and truly feel like you can overcome just about anything then it probably isn't going to work out.

edit: for the record, I have been married for 6+ years, and have lived with my wife for 9.

This has been brought up a few times and I just want to emphasize it since a lot of people seem to have grand fantasies about marriage fixing their relationships:

No matter how in love you are you will still fight. No matter what. Two people are not the same person, or same mind, just because they got married. There will always be fights, there will always be arguments, however frequent or infrequent is up to the couple.

The point is though that if you cannot handle an argument or disagreement, or think that if you fight as a married couple you need to get a divorce, do not bother getting married. It will fail.

[Takedown3]

Don't settle for someone you can live with, find the someone you can't live without.

good luck finding that person, u might think u found her but then 5 years 10 years however long down the road shits gonna change and ur fucked then

my thoughts, marry someone who u know is gonna keep stroking that dick. cuz most women tend to lose the libido

[Diamicles]

good luck finding that person, u might think u found her but then 5 years 10 years however long down the road shits gonna change and ur fucked then

my thoughts, marry someone who u know is gonna keep stroking that dick. cuz most women tend to lose the libido

utrollin

[willriker]

- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

While i do not agree that you need a specific end-date to the engagement, i do agree that the person proposing should have weighed whether they should get married before proposing. If you are uncomfortable with setting a date, you should not be proposing. I know someone who was in this limbo for a while, and it was not fair to her at all.

Call me old fashioned, but before i proposed, I went and had the conversation with my wife's father and everything. After I proposed we took our time with it, we had about a month or so to enjoy being engaged bafore talking about a date. Even then, (assuming your going this route for your wedding) the date is ultimately determined by the availability of your church, if applicable, and the reception hall anyway. It is almost imposible to decide a date until you are contacting the people for those services. But you should be prepared to talk about an estimate for the date. I would think that deciding on a month, then having the vendors availability dictate the actual date is the best way to go. If you are insistant on a certain date from the get go, itll just make things more complicated with the rest of the planning.

I fully agree that, will you marry me, is not a boyfriend plus. Being engaged has only one differance from being boyfreinf and girlfriend... and that is talking about marraige. Getting married for the sake of fidelity, or to see if you are comfortable living with the person is lame. That should have been hammered out before asking.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

The definition of love? I wish i could answer that for ya LOL. In some regions of the world, love translates into something you cannot live without. You do not use the term love to describe a candy bar, or a car, unless you cannot live without that item. The same applies to relationships. You cannot define it, people try, but you know it when it is there.

Personally, i liken the feeling of love to a low heat. You do not get burned by it, but it is always there. Its a 100% trust. I think that the feeling of being totaly enamored with another is a fleeting thing at best. Its the feeling that the both of you are one person. You dont magically become like that because you got married. It is something that is there already, and all that marraige does is proclaim this feeling to god and the community.

But, i would agrue that your feeling that equating that equating love to something filling a gap as reprehencible is not a good way to look at it. Everyone is lacking something. Some people lack things that the other possesses in abundance. Does it have an impart, in a practical sence on someones emotions, of course it does. It is a weak point, a chink in every persons emotional armor. To deny this feeling, or even worse to deem it reprehensible, is more of a weakness than a personal strength.

- If you are married, or are currently or have been engaged, what do you feel are the wrong reasons for entering into such an arrangement? And the right reasons?

Well there is something to realize here. I dont care which relationship you are talking about. A boyfriend and girlfriend, a parent and child, or even two friends all follow one simple truth. One person always cares more about the other person then vise versa. More on topic, at any point in time, the husband can care more about the wife than the wife cares about the husband. At any point in time, the wife can care more about the husband than the husband cares about the wife. It might not be some fabled ideal, but it is the truth.

Once you swallow that pill, i have another. This feeling can seesaw from one side of the relationship to other. I find this to be the idealic setup. You have times when one party cares more about the other, and you have those wonderous (all be it brief) moments when both of you care for each other equally. We will call this the mean value of love. The key here is that if both parties, experience a high return during the mean value of love. Even in the worst of times, it is a wonderful experience. However, if both parties experience a low return during the mean value of love... The relationship is not something i would deem marraige quality.

In short, both parties need to work, and it is work, towards elevating that mean value. So that, when an inequality occurs it isnt all that noticable.

[Mr. Flippy]

my answer to any marriage is....DONT DO IT. bitches be crazy and i personally dont think its worth the hassle. all bitches change and they eventually go bonkers and the shit storm happens. sometimes you might find a nice one. but in todays society its getting increasingly harder to find a good woman worth a shit.

[Aerides]

No matter the responses here:
Yes, your roommate is destined for misery
No, there's probably no point in arguing w/him, except to make sure he doesn't get her pregnant, because that's not a trial run.
Commitment born out of fear? Doomed.


- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

If you don't have a ring and a date set within 2-3 months of engagement (TOPS) you are dating. There is no trial run. Even living together = not quite the same. Engagement is a means to an end, not some state by itself, except when used to string someone along and/or pacify the parents for a couple more years.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

No that is infatuation and kinda lame after about 17.

- If you are married, or are currently or have been engaged, what do you feel are the wrong reasons for entering into such an arrangement? And the right reasons?

Something in the ballpark of "Wow this person makes me really happy, and I want to make them happy, probably forever" or you're doing it wrong.
Also, "I want this person making decisions about the lives of my children,
I want to see this person the moment I wake up and go to sleep every day, and plan out our finances and retirement together one day."

[Mizango]

Oh and dont just jump on the first person to say "I love you" or someone that tells you how "special" you are. I realize that this will fall on deaf ears for most of you (being fat nerds and all) but trust me on that, if you go into ANY relationship with the intent of settling or forcing it to work is doomed to fail miserably.

But like Weave said, get to know someone and their living habits before you decide to cohabitate with them on the fly. I personally think that as long as the people involved are honest with themselves and can self evaluate then everything is fine, but if you are prone to be a sucker for love and just out there looking for any semblance of love or to fill a lonely void then you are doing yourself much more harm then you realize.

[Mizango]

my answer to any marriage is....DONT DO IT. bitches be crazy and i personally dont think its worth the hassle. all bitches change and they eventually go bonkers and the shit storm happens.

You might want to check your bitches because I can not relate to that one at all. Do you have to deal with attitude and the occasional bad day? Sure you do. But making it all doom and gloom like that makes me wonder A) where are you finding these psycho bitches and B) what sort of games are you two playing with each other to make it that bad.

"DONT DO IT" to marriage? Why so? How is it any different than moving in with your girlfriend? A piece of paper doesn't suddenly decide to extract all the bullshit and drama out of a female, more chances than not she was crazy to begin with.

I personally would like to see pics of all the people that have the "OMGAWD FUCK MARRIAGE AND WOMEN CHEAT 25/8!!" and or their spouses. Maybe its just me and the people I roll with, but I don't see or experience any of the philandering, drama whoring bullshit you guys seemingly are so expert at. It is along the same lines of seeing some of you morbidly obese prepubescent teens yelling "DUCK!" at models in the FoD thread lol.

Shits hilarious.

in todays society its getting increasingly harder to find a good woman worth a shit.

Edit: This I can agree with wholeheartedly.

[Mojo]

Don't settle for someone you can live with, find the someone you can't live without.

Gonna agree with Takedown to some extent on this one. It's just some blanket statement that doesn't apply to the real world, nobody will ever find the perfect partner. I'd even go so far as to say that if you couldn't live without a person you need therapy as that sort of dependence is unhealthy.

I'm also somewhat surprised at the number of people who seem to think that the OPs friend is automatically fucked. It's a situation where the girl left the guy because she felt like she needed to see more before settling down. That sort of a decision is completely atypical of a needy person (which is what I think most posters have in mind when doomsaying, i.e. an engagement made because the girl is needy.)

Either way, more details about the couple's relationship before the break up are crucial to a good judgment call.

[Mojo]

Also, what they did while they were apart (did they date other people or travel?) and how long their separation lasted are somewhat important too.

[BerenTebogo]

Gonna agree with Takedown to some extent on this one. It's just some blanket statement that doesn't apply to the real world, nobody will ever find the perfect partner. I'd even go so far as to say that if you couldn't live without a person you need therapy as that sort of dependence is unhealthy.

I'm also somewhat surprised at the number of people who seem to think that the OPs friend is automatically fucked. It's a situation where the girl left the guy because she felt like she needed to see more before settling down. That sort of a decision is completely atypical of a needy person (which is what I think most posters have in mind when doomsaying, i.e. an engagement made because the girl is needy.)

Either way, more details about the couple's relationship before the break up are crucial to a good judgment call.

It's a power play. A direct inference can be made, based on the info given, showing that the guy is at the very least a bit overly attached over co-dependent. A "short break" gives the girl the ultimate power in the relationship because the guy feels like if he ever does anything wrong or makes her unhappy she'll leave.

This isn't healthy, "short breaks" being healthy when you've been together for less than 10 years or something are just a fallacy. If the relationship is bad and you need time apart you would be better off leaving.

The short break, or threat of a break-up is almost always a power-play move by the instigating party. It's a manipulative and douche-y move and should not be tolerated. If mutual agreement to get counseling or something can be reached, great, but if your partner is walking out on you for an indeterminate amount of time until they are convinced you can make them happy again...well...fuck that.

Regarding the perfect person? Well, that's all in perspective. My wife is not Rachel Leigh Cook, that is probably the biggest problem for me in our relationship. Should I leave her because she is not Rachel Leigh Cook? Should I cause the production of Psych to come to a grinding halt because I am passionately and romantically pursuing Cook? No, obviously not.

My wife is a better fit to me than any other person I have ever known in my entire life. Hypotheticals are pointless and ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned I am as happy now, almost 7 years later, as I was when we started dating. Not every person settles, and not every relationship is equal. Zoob is 100% correct that if you don't at least FEEL like you couldn't imagine the rest of your life without the person you're marrying then you're doing it wrong.

Should everyone who gets a divorce kill themselves? Obviously not, but if you're getting married under the pretense of, "gee, this person is great. Hope they keep me occupied until I find someone better!" then what the fuck is wrong with you? The perception of total exclusivity should at least be present, otherwise what is the point? You can fuck outside of marriage, you can hire people to do your laundry and wash your dishes, and you can casually date for the few months out of the year you feel like waking up to someone more than once. Why are you getting married if it isn't a powerful and overwhelming emotion after years of being together?

[Mizango]

I'd even go so far as to say that if you couldn't live without a person you need therapy as that sort of dependence is unhealthy.

This cant be stressed enough.


Edit: Also, I like what Sath said about his wife being the best possible fit for him. That is spot the fuck on. Fuck all the fairy tale bullshit.

[Tyche]

I can't say I'm as happy now as I was when we first met. When we first met, we still lived with parents, we had no obligations (financial and/or as a father/mother), and we were blissfully ignorant. Now we have a mortgage, 2 kids, vehicles, college, etc. That shit is tough to endure. If everything was as simple as when we first dated, this marriage thing would be a breeze. But it's not. This shit is tough. Recognize that before you pop the question.

[BerenTebogo]

I can't say I'm as happy now as I was when we first met. When we first met, we still lived with parents, we had no obligations (financial and/or as a father/mother), and we were blissfully ignorant. Now we have a mortgage, 2 kids, vehicles, college, etc. That shit is tough to endure. If everything was as simple as when we first dated, this marriage thing would be a breeze. But it's not. This shit is tough. Recognize that before you pop the question.

This is true as well, life gets harder. Our life is much, much, much harder than it was when we met, for me at the very least.

Despite the arguments over the bills, despite all the petty bullshit that comes up every day, I can honestly say that every morning I am as happy to see Caiti as I was the first time we ever spent the night together.

I guess it's an unequal comparison though because since we started seeing each other seriously and marriage became an option we have both been in solid agreement that we will never have children, and that aspect of many peoples' lives will never come between us. That is obviously a very large difference.

[Mojo]

It's a power play. A direct inference can be made, based on the info given, showing that the guy is at the very least a bit overly attached over co-dependent. A "short break" gives the girl the ultimate power in the relationship because the guy feels like if he ever does anything wrong or makes her unhappy she'll leave.

This isn't healthy, "short breaks" being healthy when you've been together for less than 10 years or something are just a fallacy. If the relationship is bad and you need time apart you would be better off leaving.

The short break, or threat of a break-up is almost always a power-play move by the instigating party. It's a manipulative and douche-y move and should not be tolerated. If mutual agreement to get counseling or something can be reached, great, but if your partner is walking out on you for an indeterminate amount of time until they are convinced you can make them happy again...well...fuck that.

Regarding the perfect person? Well, that's all in perspective. My wife is not Rachel Leigh Cook, that is probably the biggest problem for me in our relationship. Should I leave her because she is not Rachel Leigh Cook? Should I cause the production of Psych to come to a grinding halt because I am passionately and romantically pursuing Cook? No, obviously not.

My wife is a better fit to me than any other person I have ever known in my entire life. Hypotheticals are pointless and ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned I am as happy now, almost 7 years later, as I was when we started dating. Not every person settles, and not every relationship is equal. Zoob is 100% correct that if you don't at least FEEL like you couldn't imagine the rest of your life without the person you're marrying then you're doing it wrong.

Should everyone who gets a divorce kill themselves? Obviously not, but if you're getting married under the pretense of, "gee, this person is great. Hope they keep me occupied until I find someone better!" then what the fuck is wrong with you? The perception of total exclusivity should at least be present, otherwise what is the point? You can fuck outside of marriage, you can hire people to do your laundry and wash your dishes, and you can casually date for the few months out of the year you feel like waking up to someone more than once. Why are you getting married if it isn't a powerful and overwhelming emotion after years of being together?

You're making assumptions that it was just a short break up and that they didn't spend much time apart. If that's the case then I would certainly be more inclined to agree with you (again, these details are crucial.)

You're also going far out on a limb stating that separation is almost always a douche-y power move thing. From my experience, almost all young women do this once. Late 20s does sound a bit old, but you never know. Maybe she didn't date too many guys or maybe she didn't do much with her life before she met him.

I think we're in concordance on what a healthy marriage can be, maybe you misunderstood me. All I meant was that there is this unrealistic idea that the person you marry is going to be some perfect match. That will never happen although that doesn't mean you can't find someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.

[Mizango]

Yes it is but Tyche you guys jumped right out of HS and into a long term thing, I cant EVEN imagine doing that lol. I am not envious of you in no form or fashion at all, I was not even close to ready for any kind of a relationship when I that age. Luckily I was honest with myself and got my sex bucketlist done first before I decided to walk down that path.

But youre is right, a marriage is work and should be thought about in full and complete detail before you even consider popping that question.

[Serra]

I think if you wait until the absolute perfect moment you are going to miss out on something that could be really great. If you want absolute financial stability before someone gets married there would not be many marriages (especially in the last year).

Personally, I'm a big proponent of at least some form of financial stability and hate when people say stuff like "oh we don't need money, as long as we have each other." Living in Texas, I've seen plenty of couples that get married right out of college, and that just blows my mind. I know some schools like A&M even have places where you're supposed to propose before you graduate and whatnot. Hell, I have a friend who got married over the summer, and her husband is still in school. Just the idea of going from essentially living under your parents' wings to immediately living with someone else, and with the high probability of having tons of debt from student loans is crazy.

To answer the first question, I feel living together should be the trial run, but don't think an engagement with no end-date in mind is a problem. As long as the proposal more or less equates to "yes, I'm committing to you and we just have to go through the process of marriage eventually" I don't think it's that big of an issue.

[BerenTebogo]

You're making assumptions that it was just a short break up and that they didn't spend much time apart. If that's the case then I would certainly be more inclined to agree with you (again, these details are crucial.)

You're also going far out on a limb stating that separation is almost always a douche-y power move thing. From my experience, almost all young women do this once. Late 20s does sound a bit old, but you never know. Maybe she didn't date too many guys or maybe she didn't do much with her life before she met him.

I think we're in concordance on what a healthy marriage can be, maybe you misunderstood me. All I meant was that there is this unrealistic idea that the person you marry is going to be some perfect match. That will never happen although that doesn't mean you can't find someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.

Yeah I must've misunderstood you then. It came across that you were implying that if you even wanted to spend the rest of your life with someone that you needed help, which made my head go all exorcist spin.

Maybe I am reaching a bit when I say almost always, but I have seen it applied in a douche-y fashion far more often than not in an extremely large number of relationships that I've seen crumble over the years (friends and whatnot)

I think it is safe to assume though, in this day and age, that for every appropriate temporary separation there are far more that are instigated for the purposes of manipulation.

[willriker]

Its a good thing that you guys talked about the whole children thing before getting married. My wifes girlfriend wants kids, but the husband does not want kids...

I say thats what she gets for pressuring the guy to marry her in order to meet her lifetime plan's time line. >.> You know, get married by X years old, have whatever gender child with that name by the time shes Y years old. blah blah blah. You really need some time to get each others veiws on this, and other topics, before tying the knot.

[Nightfyre]

Sath preaching gospel in this thread.

- Do you think an engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable? Do you view engagement as a 'trial-run' to see if things work out before marriage?

Yes and no. Engagement without a specific end-date is acceptable if it's entered into with an eye towards actually getting married rather than as some kind of upgrade to the relationship. The whole trial-run thing should have been the time before you proposed, when you were seriously dating and ideally living with each other for at least some of that time.

- Do you feel love is something that comes from an absence in yourself, or insecurity? That people love in order to fulfill something that is perceived to be missing internally?

That's not love. Infatuation, desperation, pathetic, puerile - call it what you will, but love is not born out of a vacuum or a need.

The woman has your friend by the balls Isladar and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Take it from somebody who's been watching a similar trainwreck for the past year and a half. The breakup and the hints towards marriage are a power play and given his reaction I'd say she more or less owns him at this point. They may or may not be right for each other (the two I'm watching are, if they ever grow up), but it's a very lopsided situation and it's not going to go well unless something significant changes.

edit

You're making assumptions that it was just a short break up and that they didn't spend much time apart. If that's the case then I would certainly be more inclined to agree with you (again, these details are crucial.)

I think you're overestimating the importance of time in determining what exactly happened. Short term, long term, both can have the same result if played well. Of course, there's also the question of just how "apart" they were during this time, which is arguably a much more important factor.

I'll agree that not all temporary separations are manipulative, but the vast majority of them are and/or end up being permanent. The timeframe between reconciliation and hints at marriage screams manipulation.