Lich King ending lore discussion.

[ravbane]

Anyone else note Tirion is rockin Vis'kag? I'm guessing one of the big parts of the fight will be the massive impact of frostmourne and ashbringer, shattering both (and conveniently leaving some combined essence for shadowmourne).

Where the hell do you see Vis'kag? All I see is Ashbringer holstered on his hip. I am suprised he still has it though, I had hoped that Darion would pick it up during the fight.

[Kaylia]

The mystery of Varimathras' master remains yet untold as well. He answered to someone, we just don't know who. Detheroc and Mephistroth still remain among the nathrezim.

Is it possible he was working with Malganis? Probably not, his master seemed "stronger"...maybe he just joined the dragon or one of the remaining old god.


[edit]

Am I the only one who is slightly annoying at the "there will always a lich king" part? It doesnt make much sense...the Lich King was powerful, but not that powerful. It also makes little sense that the undead would get stronger without leader too

[Lucavi]

mmo-champion.com izzy.

still leaves alot of questions. saurfang is one of my favorite characters and to see him just walk away with no mention of him being in cata leaves me wondering.

nozordomu is still up to something, possibly controlling the infinite dragonflight, yet we got no resolution to that story arc. I hope the dragon-heavy cata will explain some of that.

as for bolvar, i'm guessing the key plot point blizzard will make about him being able to control the scourge is alexstraza's flame he's bathed in will help him keep the scourge in check.

Edit: Terenas has always had the most badass VA. Gives me chills.

Saurfang will undoubtedly play a part - I'm just hoping he doesn't die in between the airship fight and the final battle. Apparently we'll be receiving Hellscream's buff in the form of one hell of a warcry... I just hope that cry isn't stemming from Saurfang's death.

I doubt he'll die, however, based on the fact that he and Varian had some kind words for one another after the Saurfang the Younger fight. The lover of lore in me wants to see true peace between the Horde and Alliance stem from that, but I know that Blizzard wants to take WoW back into a PVP-centered direction with the younger Hellscream idiot.

I loved Arthas's voice in that VA. I've always liked his voice actor, but for some reason, with that song playing and the excellent (I mean SERIOUSLY EXCELLENT - go watch it again and pay attention) lip-synching, it really hit me. I actually felt sorry for Arthas, flawed as he was in life. He definitely demonstrated that is entirely possible to love too much, as his love of his people turned into an obsession for revenge.

Edit: Kaylia I look at it as the Lich King having muzzled and semi-tamed a bunch of savage-ass dogs. While he has control of them, they are, while still destructive, held in check. If he his killed, and those chains are shattered and the muzzles broken, those dogs are now free and at their full potential to ravage the land. A good master can push a beast past its normal limits out of devotion and training, but it can be just as dangerous to let a wild beast run free while constantly at full potential.

[Kaylia]

I doubt he'll die, however, based on the fact that he and Varian had some kind words for one another after the Saurfang the Younger fight. The lover of lore in me wants to see true peace between the Horde and Alliance stem from that, but I know that Blizzard wants to take WoW back into a PVP-centered direction with the younger Hellscream idiot.

I can understand why they do it, but I'm not a huge fan. After everything both horde and alliance went through, it just doesnt feel right to see both fight kill each other.


But yeah, they needed a reason to keep the pvp in the game. It just feel like a retarded reason.

Edit: Kaylia I look at it as the Lich King having muzzled and semi-tamed a bunch of savage-ass dogs. While he has control of them, they are, while still destructive, held in check. If he his killed, and those chains are shattered and the muzzles broken, those dogs are now free and at their full potential to ravage the land. A good master can push a beast past its normal limits out of devotion and training, but it can be just as dangerous to let a wild beast run free while constantly at full potential.

I understand this, but it also implies the Lich King doesnt want to harm the world....it's what I don't understand. Nerzhul wasn't really powerful, and the lich king shouldnt become an almighty being simply because Kil jaeden powered him up a bit.

It's hard to believe an unorganized army would be more efficient than an organized army with specific objective. Even if Arthas was museling them, what part of the remaining scourge would be unstoppable? There is no "strong" undead aside arthas lieutenant, and you killed most of them already. I just don't see the threat when most heroes could wipe thousand of them in 30 seconds.


Take out the cult of the damned, take out the plaguework and imagine how the remaining force would fight? They aren't smart, they couldnt spread the "undeath".

[Kaylia]

Also, don't forget that many undeads outside the lich king control would become like Sylvanas. Sure, not all of them would become "smart" and play nice, but I dont see why they would be a worse than they currently are.

[Correction]

Lucavi's analysis seems weak. The strength of the Scourge is twofold:

a: They reinforce their ranks from the dead of their enemies
b: They're organized.

The danger in losing b, besides weakening their ability to execute their master's will, seems to be mostly a fear of the power vacuum that ensues. Power over the undead is clearly not a power of the Lich King's alone (witness Sylvannas and the Nathrezim) so really what's probably at work with the 'there must be a lich king' is more a prevention of a 'let's not make ourselves have to fight 3, 4 more Lil' Lich Kings once Arthas goes down' scenario and nothing more. Who the hell wants a world where multiple competing interests have taken command of the remains of Arthas' unlimited undead army?

[Kaylia]

^
In a sense yes, but what stop people from doing this already, even with the Lich king around?


Also, sylvanas's undead arent in the same category since they all have free will, while Arthas undead are closer to a "hive mind".

[edit]

And the way I alwyas imagined undead was like the zerg and their overmind. Kill the overmind, and they become harmless. That's how I feel about them (after wc3 + undead lore so far)

[Lucavi]

I can understand why they do it, but I'm not a huge fan. After everything both horde and alliance went through, it just doesnt feel right to see both fight kill each other.


But yeah, they needed a reason to keep the pvp in the game. It just feel like a retarded reason.

It is a retarded reason. There has been so much bloodshed during the past few years. It is absolutely unrealistic and utterly unfathomable that both sides (forsaken nonwithstanding) could actually want to CONTINUE to wage war against one another.

They band together for Outland at the end, and they band together in Northrend, but now they're going to start fighting once the planet starts blowing up? Unbelievable.

I had a lot more respect (figuratively speaking) for the peaceful leaders of the Horde, but hey, what can you do with an idiot like Garrosh leading?

I understand this, but it also implies the Lich King doesnt want to harm the world....it's what I don't understand. Nerzhul wasn't really powerful, and the lich king shouldnt become an almighty being simply because Kil jaeden powered him up a bit.

It's hard to believe an unorganized army would be more efficient than an organized army with specific objective. Even if Arthas was museling them, what part of the remaining scourge would be unstoppable? There is no "strong" undead aside arthas lieutenant, and you killed most of them already. I just don't see the threat when most heroes could wipe thousand of them in 30 seconds.


Take out the cult of the damned, take out the plaguework and imagine how the remaining force would fight? They aren't smart, they couldnt spread the "undeath".

Arthas was holding the Lich King back. The Lich King didn't want to destroy the world - he wanted to rule it. Arthas's little speck of goodness and stubborn will held the Lich King back from sending the entirety of his forces to purge the world.

Think about it. From a logical (and non-game) standpoint, why were -all- of the Lich King's most powerful forces on standby in their respective fortresses, gathering up minions and forces? Hell, Naxx itself could have destroyed half the planet easily, but he never moved it over any of the major capital cities. The Lich King was arguably far more menacing and outright destructive before Arthas merged with him.

There was a lot more village-sacking, razing and burning going on before the merge. He also had a lot more of his high-ranking minions (Arthas and Kel included) on the field, razing and burning.

We could argue that all of this was done because the majority of that campaign was in WC3 and we were controlling it through RTS missions, but if you look at it from a purely novelistic view, he had been rather tame since the Arthas merge.

Sending emmisaries here and there and busting up the Scarlet Crusade and New Hearthinglen weren't as bad as destroying the Lion's share of the entire eastern kingdoms.

Lucavi's analysis seems weak.

Yeah, well, poo on you and such.

Seriously though, there are still a million plotholes. What happens to the rest of the underground cells of the cult of the damned? New members were controlled by all sorts of mind-altering plagues, forced to serve his will. What happens to the brains of many of the still-living servants, who have forcefully had their mind-link severed?

I didn't expect some hive-mind destruction thing, as that would require some mass-phasing going on to show no undead anywhere after you kill Arthas, but there are going to have to be a LOT of new text bubbles and speeches from many NPCs across the world (especially in places surrounding the dead scar, where no necromancer was raising them -- they just clambered up because of the intense evil energy there) explaining why the undead are still there.

[Kaylia]

Arthas was holding the Lich King back. The Lich King didn't want to destroy the world - he wanted to rule it. Arthas's little speck of goodness and stubborn will held the Lich King back from sending the entirety of his forces to purge the world.

Have you ever seen a place where undeads went with flowers and butterflies?...yeah. He was trying to rule the world by turning everyone into undead, which means everything will be destroyed and dead.

Arthas's strong will slowed him down like Uther mentioned, but his plan was put in motion a long time before Arthas joined him, and it doesnt feel very different right now. My point is, if they had killed the lich king 4 years ago, it would have been fine, but now it's not?

They could make the argument that in the last 4 years, Arthas made so many undeads that it's dangerous to kill him now, but you just said Arthas was inactive during that time.

[Dakk-Siren]

Maybe they didn't have that bit of information until they got eaten by frostmourne?

Also wasn't Arthas more or less alseep for 4 years after becoming the Lich King? Entombed in ice just as the end of the CS with Bolvar being surrounded by ice.

[Kaylia]

Maybe they didn't have that bit of information until they got eaten by frostmourne?

That's a possibility, but since it's comming out of nowhere, I would like to actually see how dangerous the scourge is without Arthas and the Lich King.


If giant undead were sleeping underground waiting to rape Azeroth, I would believe it, but being told the random weak ghoul you ignored on your way to Arthas could hurt the world...I have trouble accepting this.

[Correction]

^
In a sense yes, but what stop people from doing this already, even with the Lich king around?


Also, sylvanas's undead arent in the same category since they all have free will, while Arthas undead are closer to a "hive mind".

[edit]

And the way I alwyas imagined undead was like the zerg and their overmind. Kill the overmind, and they become harmless. That's how I feel about them (after wc3 + undead lore so far)

There does seem to be a stratification of undead. 'Mindless' undead like the ones in Tirisfall just exist as remnants of the original plague. Forsaken exist as ones liberated from the command of the Lich King by Illidan's weakening of the throne. Then there's the Lich King's scourge, control of which seems to be obtainable even with him around (see Knights of the Ebon Blade lore) but that seems to take an event of relatively seismic proportions, or just very, very powerful people doing it like Tirion Fordring or Darion Mograine.

I suppose there aren't any remaining contenders for 'evil new overlord of the scourge' but it's not beyond imagining that there are still those out there with powers comparable to a high Death Knight and who wish to command the undead.

[Kaylia]

Oh, I agree. It's just that I dont see the need of a Lich King to stop people from trying to rule the world with undead ( or w/e)

And without the lich king power, it's hard to imagine someone topping him in term of undead control. He was powerful in the first place, and got even stronger when he joined Arthas.

[Lucavi]

Maybe they didn't have that bit of information until they got eaten by frostmourne?

Also wasn't Arthas more or less alseep for 4 years after becoming the Lich King? Entombed in ice just as the end of the CS with Bolvar being surrounded by ice.

He was mentally issuing orders out and such, but yeah, he wasn't running around raising frost wyrms or anything.

The Lich King's massive consciousness was always pulsing out and directing/threatening people. I'm just really amazed that he was able to directly inject his consciousness into normal people and turn them, albeit people with a hunger for power or some other desire.

He even managed to turn quite a few paladins before death. If there was one thing he was good at, it was his jedi mind tricks.

[Kaylia]

He received his power from a demon. His power isn't that different in a way.

[Celeras]

Never thought I'd see the day where people still took WoW lore seriously. They had a good thing going for a while, but I can't find it in me to seriously discuss it anymore. Not after shit like Naxx 2.0 and Tauren Paladins.

Cool CS I guess, but not nearly as meaningful as I would have found it back in vanilla. Id honestly rather pretend that everything after the first expansion never happened lore-wise.

[Onorgul]

I find the current resolution of the story to be totally unbelievable and disappointing, but there are some points of it that make a bit of sense.

First of all, there are a lot of mechanical reasons for why Blizzard has done what they've done. Prior to going nuts, Arthas was a fairly decent character, if a bit hot-headed, and it has been important to redeem him. To that end, they can't pull the Illidan nonsense of having him start shouting the second you get back to Dalaran (of course, they could just ignore the problem altogether, as they do with Algalon and his weekly respawn). If Arthas definitely dies in lore and we assume his soul is redeemed, the best he could do is be a Medivh type of figure. Speaking of whom, I keep waiting to see him show up again in WoW and Caverns of Time doesn't count.

Secondly, though, the Scourge are still created by a dangerously potent disease. One of the first quests you get after reclaiming Crusader's Pinnacle in Icecrown is to find a crusader and then employ some of the most life-giving and holiest elements in the universe to try to save him from the Scourge of Undeath. It's ultimately the MacGuffin God-figures (the Naaru) who essentially kill him and claim his soul, so clearly Ner'zhul and the Burning Legion created a particularly nasty disease and it hasn't been eliminated. It's floating around enough of Northrend that a zombie apocalypse could potentially happen at any time, although it does pose the problem of why Arthas never got around to starting it instead of playing his, "I'll get you next time, adventurers!" game as you cut through his Vyrkul, Nerubian, and Trollish legions. The best anyone can figure is that his humanity holds it back ever so slightly, but lore needs to be expanded.

Either way, some form of control over the Scourge would need to remain. The Scourge, being largely mindless except for the Lichnee, San'layn (if any still remain), and certain powerful undead like Wights, certainly would need something to keep it in check. The problem, though, is why Bolvar Foreskin wouldn't simply make them all pile on top of one another and have Alexstrasza burn the hell out of them. About the only thing the official Blizz resolution offers is an explanation of why the population of Forsaken and Ebon Blade Death Knights might not diminish into nothingness, as he can selectively loose control of those minions.

The point about the rekindled war between Alliance and Horde in Cataclysm is also a bit irritating. Half the Alliance really couldn't care about half the Horde. When have the Tauren bothered anyone except the genocidal Centaur? Copy/paste for Gnomes and Troggs, even though I consider Gnomes to be a delicious treat. Garrosh and Varian having it out for one another is nice and all, but both sides have been devastated by three wars in just a couple decades, then the battle with the Scourge and the Burning Legion, then the war on Draenor against Illidan, and now the war in Icecrown against the Scourge again. That Azeroth has a population left to stand against Neltharion, much less one another, is a testament to how often people fuck because replacement rate on Azeroth must be something like 45 births per couple.

Then again, we all played Final Fantasy XI. No matter how many times we stopped various gods and demi-gods from destroying the planet, the best we can hope for is a nominal discount when buying Distilled Water from Bored NPC #378. Some day MMO developers will figure out a way to make their storytelling work with the mechanics of their game.

[Kaylia]

Never thought I'd see the day where people still took WoW lore seriously. They had a good thing going for a while, but I can't find it in me to seriously discuss it anymore. Not after shit like Naxx 2.0 and Tauren Paladins.

Cool CS I guess, but not nearly as meaningful as I would have found it back in vanilla. Id honestly rather pretend that everything after the first expansion never happened lore-wise.

I don't see what's the issue with Naxx or Onyxia. If future events were based on the fact they were taken down...fine. But it's not the case. It doesnt create any hole in the lore or in the chronology.

Tauren paladin...after spending many years at war with paladin..why not? It's not like tauren culture change, only a few individual who will pick that path. Of course, you will see 3 billions tauren paladin just because, but lore-wise, it changes nothing.

[Kaylia]

is a testament to how often people fuck because replacement rate on Azeroth must be something like 45 births per couple.

That's always how I imagined a "barrack" or w/e in WC3.

[Lordshin]

Never thought I'd see the day where people still took WoW lore seriously. They had a good thing going for a while, but I can't find it in me to seriously discuss it anymore. Not after shit like Naxx 2.0 and Tauren Paladins.

Cool CS I guess, but not nearly as meaningful as I would have found it back in vanilla. Id honestly rather pretend that everything after the first expansion never happened lore-wise.

If you looked at WoW lore seriously you would understand why Naxx 2.0 and Tauren Paladins exist, or why Kael'Thas, Anub'arak, KT, and the blood princes Came back...

Both Tauren and Blood elves are not Paladins, they are Sunwalkers and Blood Knights but rather than create more class names Blizz chose to go with the simple naming convention.

The whole "there must always be a lich king" is not a retcon, a plothole, or whatever people are saying nowadays... it was just information we didn't know, or couldn't have known, before WotLK since Arthas was asleep from the end of WC3:TFT to just before WotLK.

Back to the CS, it seems like Arthas wanted to die. If that's the case, everything makes more sense. The way i look at it, Arthas has been testing and training you, to make sure you can do the job. I mean he could just send all of the scourge to, say, the crusader's coliseum and kill everyone, but he doesn't. He can do the Same to the Rest of the world since he essentially has an immortal army, but he doesn't.