Lich King ending lore discussion.

[Lucavi]

I agree with Pathfinder (can I still call you Path, Path?) that MMO developers need to find a way to seamlessly thread the game's lore with the progression of the actual game. FFXI frustrated me in that no matter how many great things you did for the planet; no matter HOW many Gods and Goddesses and Deities you killed, the only way you could actually gain "reputation" with people amounted to how many consumables you traded in.

I don't understand how saving the world 3-4 times over can't get me a discount in shops, yet trading in a bunch of tiger fangs can. It's a RMT's paradise of a system.

I think WoW had a strike against it because they were working with a previously-established franchise, and had to work that into a MMO context. FFXI, however, gets no pass from me, because the only things they seem to carry from game to game are jobs, chocobos, airships, moogles, cid, and crystals.

SE has a chance with each MMO they make and are going to make, to craft the world from the ground up, and to devise a way to integrate the story into the gameplay experience without ending up with the plotholes that WoW comes out with. I'm not giving WoW a free pass here, but I can at least say that the phasing system, with a few years and a more powerful engine, will absolutely forge some sort of new leap in the way MMOs can tell their stories and engage us.

I'm waiting for the day when we return to the ways of Asheron's Call 2, and bosses give us a true reason to want to fight them, other than because they have a pretty palace and drop shiny loot.

I wanted to kill the Ark Angels because the story was great (for that era) and they killed my homeboy, Raogrimm. I wanted to kill Arthas because he's done all of this, and must be made to pay. However, I want MORE of a reason. I want new reason once a week, or at least once a month. I want Arthas or one of his leaders to sack a town, or blow up a ship at sea, or screw with the auction house. I wanted the zilart assholes to do more than say "follow your nose!" and scamper up in the clouds waiting for you to move to the next cutscene and chase after them.

Somebody needs to remind us adventurers that instead of us camping HNMs or fighting in battlegrounds or throwing up lots of shit on the AH or gardening in our houses that we NEED to save the damned planet, or bad things will continue to happen.

I hope a developer gets that, and I hope a developer one day has the means and the vision to make it happen.

[Onorgul]

My handle is pathwriter. Dunno why people have such trouble with that.

I was trying to think of ways that MMOs can try to maintain a consistent story and, well, they really cannot. The crucial problem is that players who have completed something may yet be called upon to do it again. In simplest terms, even though I've defeated Lord Marrowgar, I'm going to continue to do so because I want his loot table and because I want the loot tables that follow him. Marrowgar isn't a very lore-heavy boss, though. Saurfang the Younger, on the other hand, gets a little problematic when killed repeatedly. What could be done is to have the boss phase as Saurfang (or Arthas, for the final encounter) for your first successful kill and then become a generic Death Knight champion (or Bolvar, who has a fairly justified reason for being more or less unkillable) for subsequent ones. The execution would be more than most WoW players probably care about, though, and not economically worth the effort.

The other option would be to make major lore-heavy boss kills into cutscenes, but players would be a little irritated to never be able to stick their sword into Arthas's face and instead play second fiddle to a cutscene where Tirion does all the work. I know it pissed me off to no end in FFXI when Lion or Aldo would take credit for all my hard work without bothering to show their face in the battle. At least Prishe was actually kicking Promathia's ass alongside me.

In the meantime, though, we're left with this very amateurish writing for resolving mechanical problems with the lore. If WoW had simply been Warcraft 4, we'd have killed Arthas, his dad would take his soul away, and we'd rescue Bolvar from his imprisonment. Then Varian and Garrosh would appear and start acting like colossal idiots and I'd feed them face first into a Meat Wagon.

[Kaylia]

I agree with Pathfinder (can I still call you Path, Path?) that MMO developers need to find a way to seamlessly thread the game's lore with the progression of the actual game. FFXI frustrated me in that no matter how many great things you did for the planet; no matter HOW many Gods and Goddesses and Deities you killed, the only way you could actually gain "reputation" with people amounted to how many consumables you traded in.

I don't understand how saving the world 3-4 times over can't get me a discount in shops, yet trading in a bunch of tiger fangs can. It's a RMT's paradise of a system.

I think WoW had a strike against it because they were working with a previously-established franchise, and had to work that into a MMO context. FFXI, however, gets no pass from me, because the only things they seem to carry from game to game are jobs, chocobos, airships, moogles, cid, and crystals.

SE has a chance with each MMO they make and are going to make, to craft the world from the ground up, and to devise a way to integrate the story into the gameplay experience without ending up with the plotholes that WoW comes out with. I'm not giving WoW a free pass here, but I can at least say that the phasing system, with a few years and a more powerful engine, will absolutely forge some sort of new leap in the way MMOs can tell their stories and engage us.

I'm waiting for the day when we return to the ways of Asheron's Call 2, and bosses give us a true reason to want to fight them, other than because they have a pretty palace and drop shiny loot.

I wanted to kill the Ark Angels because the story was great (for that era) and they killed my homeboy, Raogrimm. I wanted to kill Arthas because he's done all of this, and must be made to pay. However, I want MORE of a reason. I want new reason once a week, or at least once a month. I want Arthas or one of his leaders to sack a town, or blow up a ship at sea, or screw with the auction house. I wanted the zilart assholes to do more than say "follow your nose!" and scamper up in the clouds waiting for you to move to the next cutscene and chase after them.

Somebody needs to remind us adventurers that instead of us camping HNMs or fighting in battlegrounds or throwing up lots of shit on the AH or gardening in our houses that we NEED to save the damned planet, or bad things will continue to happen.

I hope a developer gets that, and I hope a developer one day has the means and the vision to make it happen.

Wrong thread btw. lol Did you want to post this in the ffxiv thread?

[Meresgi]

One hell of a CS. Some people actually have the gall to say that WoW doesn't do a good job telling its story.

They don't. What happened to Ner'Zhul? He was in the armor, so is he fused with Bolovar? Is Bolovar just super magic and can withstand the corruption? Why wasn't anyone notified Bolovar was alive, I'm sure Alexstraza knew she has brought him back. Why was he the only one brought back with the flames? Why must there always be a Lich King, the last time Ner'Zhul waned in power the undead were freed of their bonds and became the Forsaken. Sure some ran amok but others actually regained themselves. Where does Mograine fit into all this? They were building him up as being a huge enemy of the Lich King, what about Mal'Ganis, they built him up through Northrend as if he was going to stage something.

The story is just full of plot holes and doesn't tie together very well at all.

The whole "there must always be a lich king" is not a retcon, a plothole, or whatever people are saying nowadays... it was just information we didn't know, or couldn't have known, before WotLK since Arthas was asleep from the end of WC3:TFT to just before WotLK.

See my point above when Ner'Zhul was weakened during WC3.

Back to the CS, it seems like Arthas wanted to die. If that's the case, everything makes more sense. The way i look at it, Arthas has been testing and training you, to make sure you can do the job. I mean he could just send all of the scourge to, say, the crusader's coliseum and kill everyone, but he doesn't. He can do the Same to the Rest of the world since he essentially has an immortal army, but he doesn't.

They state that Arthas has no more humanity left in him, he tore out his own heart and threw it away. They do mention that because he wasn't fully corrupted and sought the power to protect his people. Thus Ner'Zhul couldn't control him 100% and that's what kept the scourge at bay.

[Correction]

They don't. What happened to Ner'Zhul? He was in the armor, so is he fused with Bolovar? Is Bolovar just super magic and can withstand the corruption? Why wasn't anyone notified Bolovar was alive, I'm sure Alexstraza knew she has brought him back. Why was he the only one brought back with the flames? Why must there always be a Lich King, the last time Ner'Zhul waned in power the undead were freed of their bonds and became the Forsaken. Sure some ran amok but others actually regained themselves. Where does Mograine fit into all this? They were building him up as being a huge enemy of the Lich King, what about Mal'Ganis, they built him up through Northrend as if he was going to stage something.

The story is just full of plot holes and doesn't tie together very well at all.

Ner'Zhul's primary influence on Arthas was through Mal'Ganis forcing him to commit atrocities on innocents, and then later Frostmourne. It's pretty clear from the cutscene that Frostmourne is shattered, which frees Arthas. Bolvar, infused with the essence of the queen of the Red Dragonflight, uses this power to become the new prison of the lich king.

Think of the Scourge as a weapon. Clearly Bolvar's intention is to keep some sort of grip on that weapon that others may not. Without the corruption of Frostmourne, he is clearly in a better position to keep Ner'zhul at bay than Arthas ever was.

It is strongly hinted that Alexstrasza had a hand in, and knew what was happening to Bolvar, thanks to some lucky people blessed with a glitch that allowed them to understand Draconic.

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t34404-s...2/#post1019167

What reasons she had for keeping such knowledge from the mortal races until they stumble across it in ICC is anybody's guess, but hardly a plot hole.

[Guitarman]

What reasons she had for keeping such knowledge from the mortal races until they stumble across it in ICC is anybody's guess, but hardly a plot hole.

I'm sure Nozordomu had a hand in fortelling bolvar's fate to alexstraza, seeing as his demise > creation as the new lich king is such a prominent event in azeroth's timeline. As for why she didn't mention anything, it would be pretty hard to explain to the races of azeroth that she makes flambe out of one of the heroes of the alliance for the purpose of making him a lich king. It's kind of a hard sell. None of the mortal races knew there has to be a lich king always until terenas reveals it, and even then it's because Tirion is no fool and knew Terenas, and saw his ghost firsthand. That's my take on all this, at least.

[Kaylia]

I'm sure Nozordomu had a hand in fortelling bolvar's fate to alexstraza, seeing as his demise > creation as the new lich king is such a prominent event in azeroth's timeline. As for why she didn't mention anything, it would be pretty hard to explain to the races of azeroth that she makes flambe out of one of the heroes of the alliance for the purpose of making him a lich king. It's kind of a hard sell. None of the mortal races knew there has to be a lich king always until terenas reveals it, and even then it's because Tirion is no fool and knew Terenas, and saw his ghost firsthand. That's my take on all this, at least.

Ironically, thousand will die because of this since it's one of the main cause of the alliance vs horde issue.

[Meresgi]

Ner'Zhul's primary influence on Arthas was through Mal'Ganis forcing him to commit atrocities on innocents, and then later Frostmourne. It's pretty clear from the cutscene that Frostmourne is shattered, which frees Arthas. Bolvar, infused with the essence of the queen of the Red Dragonflight, uses this power to become the new prison of the lich king.

Think of the Scourge as a weapon. Clearly Bolvar's intention is to keep some sort of grip on that weapon that others may not. Without the corruption of Frostmourne, he is clearly in a better position to keep Ner'zhul at bay than Arthas ever was.

The thing is, Frostmourne was only the means to weaken Arthas' soul and eventually corrupt him. After his corruption he became an agent of Ner'Zhul and just a death knight that wielded a badass sword. It wasn't until Ner'Zhul's throne was being sundered that Arthas, being his top guy, was selected to merge with him. The armor IS Ner'Zhul, and wearing it allows him to merge with the host and become a symbiotic entity. Or at least that was the story. Now it doesn't seem to be that strong of a connection, lol retcons.

If it's revealed in Cata that the dragonflights had arranged this all from the start then ok, maybe I can let it by. As if they knew Deathwing was coming and decided to end the Scourge threat as fast as possible so that humanity could deal with Deathwing. I still find it a cop-out though, as maybe i'm used to the story telling platform of the RTS'. I would assume they could tell more with an MMO but I doubt they even feel the need to really since their main story person quit before BC, and most people playing the MMO don't care so it's not worth the effort.

[Guitarman]

Ironically, thousand will die because of this since it's one of the main cause of the alliance vs horde issue.

while true, it's still the lesser of the two evils. it was either him or saurfang, and as much as i like the saurfangs, bolvar would have a stronger will. (besides, can you imagine how pissed the elder saurfang would be if he found out it was the other way? He'd fucking cleave Alexstraza in half. She knew it, we know it). The only other person that could've taken over was Tirion, and I'm willing to bet he still has a large role to play come cata. At least in some way.

[Kaylia]

I understand it would be the lesser of the two evils, but shit, they need to level their diplomacy skills. They all suck at it.

[Plow]

The thing is, Frostmourne was only the means to weaken Arthas' soul and eventually corrupt him. After his corruption he became an agent of Ner'Zhul and just a death knight that wielded a badass sword. It wasn't until Ner'Zhul's throne was being sundered that Arthas, being his top guy, was selected to merge with him. The armor IS Ner'Zhul, and wearing it allows him to merge with the host and become a symbiotic entity. Or at least that was the story. Now it doesn't seem to be that strong of a connection, lol retcons.

OK. First off:

Prior to this cutscene:

There is no more Ner'Zhul.

There is no more Arthas.

There is only the Lich King.

Arthas "retakes" his body for this cutscene-- prior to it he's essentially no more than Terenas, a soul consumed by frostmourne.

Secondly:

Ner'Zhul's story *IS* finished. (there may be more backstory to finish, but NZ himself died. Arthas "consumed" him. Right after arthas kills all the "good" from himself, NZ says something and arthas basically says "No more we. I have all I want from you." and kills him off.

Now, as to all this:

Arthas was holding the Lich King back. The Lich King didn't want to destroy the world - he wanted to rule it. Arthas's little speck of goodness and stubborn will held the Lich King back from sending the entirety of his forces to purge the world.

Think about it. From a logical (and non-game) standpoint, why were -all- of the Lich King's most powerful forces on standby in their respective fortresses, gathering up minions and forces? Hell, Naxx itself could have destroyed half the planet easily, but he never moved it over any of the major capital cities. The Lich King was arguably far more menacing and outright destructive before Arthas merged with him.

There was a lot more village-sacking, razing and burning going on before the merge. He also had a lot more of his high-ranking minions (Arthas and Kel included) on the field, razing and burning.

We could argue that all of this was done because the majority of that campaign was in WC3 and we were controlling it through RTS missions, but if you look at it from a purely novelistic view, he had been rather tame since the Arthas merge.

Sending emmisaries here and there and busting up the Scarlet Crusade and New Hearthinglen weren't as bad as destroying the Lion's share of the entire eastern kingdoms.

Did you guys miss the entire ending of Vanilla? And like 90% of WotLK lol?

Naxx, and all the shit along with it, was sent to piss us off. We were not ready to face him then -- keep in mind, the ilvls actually mean something (tiny) in terms of lore. It was flat out stated when people were in full t3 going "why aren't we going straight after arthas?" that our gear levels would not give us even a remote chance at handling him at that point.

The goal of the attacks (remember that? citadels floating outside cities, releasing scourge directly onto us?) was to goad us into coming to Northrend before we were prepared.

However, that didn't work, so he basically went into hibernation (this is where arthas consumed nz) and began building his power. Since waking up, it's grown faster than ever. Meanwhile, the portal opened back up and we conveniently had a way to get a lot stronger.

Ner'Zhul's primary influence on Arthas was through Mal'Ganis forcing him to commit atrocities on innocents, and then later Frostmourne. It's pretty clear from the cutscene that Frostmourne is shattered, which frees Arthas. Bolvar, infused with the essence of the queen of the Red Dragonflight, uses this power to become the new prison of the lich king.

Think of the Scourge as a weapon. Clearly Bolvar's intention is to keep some sort of grip on that weapon that others may not. Without the corruption of Frostmourne, he is clearly in a better position to keep Ner'zhul at bay than Arthas ever was.

It is strongly hinted that Alexstrasza had a hand in, and knew what was happening to Bolvar, thanks to some lucky people blessed with a glitch that allowed them to understand Draconic.

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t34404-s...2/#post1019167

What reasons she had for keeping such knowledge from the mortal races until they stumble across it in ICC is anybody's guess, but hardly a plot hole.

It's pretty easy, really. The population can't live in fear of the Lich King if they think there's no more Lich King.



As to this stuff:

Edit: Kaylia I look at it as the Lich King having muzzled and semi-tamed a bunch of savage-ass dogs. While he has control of them, they are, while still destructive, held in check. If he his killed, and those chains are shattered and the muzzles broken, those dogs are now free and at their full potential to ravage the land. A good master can push a beast past its normal limits out of devotion and training, but it can be just as dangerous to let a wild beast run free while constantly at full potential.

Keep in mind that the lich king, while he himself is always contained in that armor, is basically an insanely massive, but incredibly "leaky" power source when not containted by either the ice tomb or by bringing the LK itself to life/reality/whatever. The whole reason he had Arthas merge with him (or, well, the events that caused the timing of it directly at least) was that his power was leaking out a crack in the tomb, and KJ sent KT and Illidan at him while he was weak.

So, it could be as simple as the fact that the power would leak out into the evil that's overrun Northrend at this point, adding immense power to the legions already present. (Imagine every undead in Icecrown, including all the frostwyrms and shit right outside ICC, up and deciding to pay undercity a visit... infused by massive amounts of power leaking from the citadel).

But the main issue is that with the LK in control, they're an organized group, preparing for battles... which can be fought by an equally organized army, meeting them for battles. That's really a much less scary thought than all of them running rampant everywhere, at least for the non-hero citizens who would be stuck inside city walls.

It's hard to believe an unorganized army would be more efficient than an organized army with specific objective. Even if Arthas was museling them, what part of the remaining scourge would be unstoppable? There is no "strong" undead aside arthas lieutenant, and you killed most of them already. I just don't see the threat when most heroes could wipe thousand of them in 30 seconds.

Who said anything about efficient? It's about dangerous uncontrolled hordes of shit.

And no, most heroes couldn't wipe thousands of the shit filling ICC and Icecrown itself (hi2u 83 elites all over), let alone if it all decided to just start zerging random shit all over the place. It's also a spreading disease.

[Plow]

Also yeah you're right, he did still have Ashbringer, just one angle made the glowy orb look like a curved blade.


Also, after going into my WoW files and watching this and wrathgate, there's just no comparison, this is really pretty pathetic next to it ><


I also never noticed before that right after Saurfang does his greeting, he cleaves and 1 shots 3 huge mobs lol.

[Lucavi]

They don't. What happened to Ner'Zhul? He was in the armor, so is he fused with Bolovar? Is Bolovar just super magic and can withstand the corruption? Why wasn't anyone notified Bolovar was alive, I'm sure Alexstraza knew she has brought him back. Why was he the only one brought back with the flames? Why must there always be a Lich King, the last time Ner'Zhul waned in power the undead were freed of their bonds and became the Forsaken. Sure some ran amok but others actually regained themselves. Where does Mograine fit into all this? They were building him up as being a huge enemy of the Lich King, what about Mal'Ganis, they built him up through Northrend as if he was going to stage something..

Ner'Zhul was weakend by Illidan's spell considerably, which is why he lost control over the forsaken, and which was the only reason why he would ever seek to merge with the strongest soldier still under his control - Arthas.

As part of a reoccurring theme in WoW, Arthas' will (despite being wholly corrupted by being in possession of Frostmourne) was strong enough to resist Ner'Zhul's weakening will, and that is presumably how he was able to wrest control from Ner'Zhul into this fusion of Broken Ner'Zhul, Frostmourne-corrupted Arthas, and a small fragment of "true" Arthas.

Strength (or stubbornness) of will is a principal theme in WoW's lore. Everyone from Thrall to Ner'Zhul to Arthas to Grom (willing himself out of the blood corruption) to Bolvar himself (resisting the Lich King's torture) all demonstrated extreme wills in their abilities to resist outside influences and changes. The reason the legion lost their Lich King was because they underestimated the sheer will of Ner'Zhul. He, in turn, underestimated the will of Arthas, fueled by the corrupting influence of Frostmourne.

Hell, Tirion's will alone was able to purify a corrupted Ashbringer, one of the strongest blades in history, and before that, Darion's selfless sacrifice (suicide) combined with the will to save his father consecrated the entire Light's Hope Chapel during the first battle, even though it exhausted his will enough for him to be enslaved by Kel'Thuzad and the Lich King.


I believe that the only thing which essentially robbed all sense of will was Frostmourne, but even that was called into suspicion when our well-voiced King and Uther were able to temporarily materialize while Frostmourne was apparently resting. That's one hell of a blade.

I don't believe that Ner'Zhul exists as himself anymore. Frostmourne pretty much assimilated a good bulk of both Ner'Zhul's and Arthas's souls upon both Arthas claiming the sword and Arthas claiming the undead crown. If anyone "won" in the struggle between the three, it was Frostmourne, as evidenced by the fact that when Frostmourne was destroyed, Arthas regained some of his senses, and the fact that Frostmourne-Arthas basically told the last remnants of Ner'Zhul within him that he had all that he needed from him, and that "we" was now "he".

What still confuses me is the "haze" over Arthas' eyes in the CS. Did he lose that after Frostmourne shattered or because the crown fell off? I noticed that when Bolvar wore the crown, a new "haze" emitted from his eyes, though we all know that it is now red - probably enfused with the essence of the lifebinder.

That makes me wonder if the Lich King will become significantly weaker and less resistant to damage once we take out Frostmourne, assuming that we destroy the blade in mid-battle, or will it only be destroyed once we land the killing blow on Arthas.

It's still not a bad story. When you have the sheer amount of lore that WoW has, coupled with the fact that you have to modify and redirect the story to fit with multiple types of genres (books, an RTS series, a MMO, and eventually a movie) you are going to have plotholes in areas. Plenty of stories for game-only series have tons of plot holes -- look at Metal Gear Solid.

I agree with Path in that the story would be a hell of a lot cleaner and easier to tell if it was simply Warcraft 4. We fight with various factions, help the Dalaran mages, help the dragons, storm icecrown, and bust up the Lich King. Pretty easy stuff, with not a lot of wiggle-room for branching and explained-upon plots, which is why they'd release side-books.

When you're dealing with a MMO, though, you have to account for all of these quests, and different faction text for both sides, and the "housewife" syndrome where every boss just sits at home and waits for you to come to them. Its not easy, and I'm cutting them a little slack because they had (or chose to) adapt all of this 15+ year lore into a MMO.

[Onorgul]

OK. First off:

Prior to this cutscene:

There is no more Ner'Zhul.

There is no more Arthas.

There is only the Lich King.

Arthas "retakes" his body for this cutscene-- prior to it he's essentially no more than Terenas, a soul consumed by frostmourne.

Secondly:

Ner'Zhul's story *IS* finished. (there may be more backstory to finish, but NZ himself died. Arthas "consumed" him. Right after arthas kills all the "good" from himself, NZ says something and arthas basically says "No more we. I have all I want from you." and kills him off.

Can you cite something for this? Admittedly, it's been a couple years since I played Warcraft 3 and I don't have my old saves to watch cutscenes or replay late missions, but I had been under the impression that Ner'zhul's fate and present circumstances had not yet been explained in canon.

[Lucavi]

There's a quest chain in RotLK up in Icecrown that explains a lot of it, though the name of it escapes me currently.

[Plow]

Couple things I want to point out here, and they're related:

Ner'Zhul was weakend by Illidan's spell considerably, which is why he lost control over the forsaken, and which was the only reason why he would ever seek to merge with the strongest soldier still under his control - Arthas.

As part of a reoccurring theme in WoW, Arthas' will (despite being wholly corrupted by being in possession of Frostmourne) was strong enough to resist Ner'Zhul's weakening will, and that is presumably how he was able to wrest control from Ner'Zhul into this fusion of Broken Ner'Zhul, Frostmourne-corrupted Arthas, and a small fragment of "true" Arthas.

Here's the thing, I don't think you're seeing the entities properly.

The formation came from Ner'Zhul (in the form of the lich king), Frostmourne, and Arthas.

Arthas's soul was essentially then stolen and became just another soul in the blade.

However...

I don't believe that Ner'Zhul exists as himself anymore. Frostmourne pretty much assimilated a good bulk of both Ner'Zhul's and Arthas's souls upon both Arthas claiming the sword and Arthas claiming the undead crown. If anyone "won" in the struggle between the three, it was Frostmourne, as evidenced by the fact that when Frostmourne was destroyed, Arthas regained some of his senses, and the fact that Frostmourne-Arthas basically told the last remnants of Ner'Zhul within him that he had all that he needed from him, and that "we" was now "he".

This is closer to the reality.

Frostmourne, and the non-NZ specific LK being, don't keep "true" parts of the beings around.

What the LK we know now is, is basically this:

The LK's "soul."

Ner'zhul's "power" and "evilness"

Arthas's body and "personality."

There's no "true" NZ or Arthas left, beyond their souls consumed and imprisoned within frostmourne like any others.

I'm not even sure it was actually "Arthas" that killed/consumed NZ, and not just the LK itself, having already consumed Arthas and taken his body and personality for his own use.

This is also probably why bolvar makes it so much less threatening... not only does he balance NZ's evil with his own good, and the spirit of undeath manifested that basically "is" the independent LK with the spirit of life that basicall "is" "The immolated champion"...

Frostmourne is no longer there holding infinite souls and driving the king with a hunger for more.

What still confuses me is the "haze" over Arthas' eyes in the CS. Did he lose that after Frostmourne shattered or because the crown fell off? I noticed that when Bolvar wore the crown, a new "haze" emitted from his eyes, though we all know that it is now red - probably enfused with the essence of the lifebinder.

It's definitely the crown, and yeah what made the Arthas incarnation of LK so strong was the fact that he was already a DK, turned from the fiery light to the cold darkness, hence the difference in their eyes, as Bolvar is still (more than ever, even) a "pillar of light."

Can you cite something for this? Admittedly, it's been a couple years since I played Warcraft 3 and I don't have my old saves to watch cutscenes or replay late missions, but I had been under the impression that Ner'zhul's fate and present circumstances had not yet been explained in canon.

I think they go directly into it with the quests that go under ICC? I'm not sure.

You can find it on wowwiki tho.

[ravbane]

It should be noted that Ner'zhul was not particularly an evil character before he was shackled to the frozen throne and became the lich king with frostmourne as his prison. In the Arthas book, Arthas is constantly in conflict with what he is doing while in possession of frostmourne. He even healed Muradin somewhat after retrieving the blade from the pedestal (thats why Muradin is alive still). Any time the subject of Jaina was brought up before him, his resolve weakened and the voice from the blade took over and acted for him.
I was honestly hoping that there was more to Frostmourne than just being a prison for souls, like the legion placed some demon or entity that actually consumed souls and was the nature of the scourge itself. That would have reinforced the whole "There must always be a Lich King". However, Frostmourne gets wrecked and we're left to assume its the damned helmet that does all the work.

[Jodwahh]

I suppose the helmet is the crown of the lich king when all's said and done.

[Lucavi]

The thing I'm contesting with you Plow is that Ner'Zhul never came in contact with Frostmourne. He never touched it, and his soul was never sucked into it. In the lore, he mentally flung the sword out of the frozen throne, knowing that whosoever claimed the blade would have their will completely enslaved to Frostmourne.

I think the Nazharehm intended for the Ner'Zhul to claim Frostmourne, have the last remaining vestiges of his will taken by the blade, and leave only "The Lich King", an entity that existed only to shepard in a massive army of undead for the Burning Legion's own personal use.

Since Ner'Zhul wasn't an idiot, and didn't trust the Nazharehm (as evidenced by Kel Thuzad warning Arthas to "trust not the Jailers, for they are the Lich King's keepers), and wanted to rule his undead army in his own way, he never came in contact with the sword, knowing something was up. He wanted to break free of his jailers, not serve them, so he cast the sword out, mentally goading the strongest mind he could manipulate to claim the sword, and then use that person as his finest "enforcer"

I believe he only merged with Arthas because of his weakened state following our favorite Night Elf Demon's spell.

This could be wrong, because when Malganas saw Arthas with Frostmourne, he assumed that he was working for the Lich King, and thus, the Legion, so I don't know. They are my own thoughts.

[Onorgul]

Frostmourne, from what I can tell, has been victim to Blizzard's lackadaisical lore department. Remember how the Lost Ones and Akama were retconned like crazy to make some light-infused, anti-demon aliens? Same thing here. Frostmourne went from being a cursed blade of somewhat indeterminate origin to a device that overrides both the Burning Legion's reason for creating the Frozen Throne (to have someone control their Scourge) and Ner'zhul's own personality. I mean, before the lore got bent over backwards for the billionth time, Ner'zhul wasn't interested in taking over the world, he just wanted to get out of that fucking block of ice. That's why I keep getting confused at the idea that Ner'zhul is lost and gone, because his luring of Arthas was to free himself; it wasn't part of some master plan to destroy the universe. That's Sargeras's bag.