Using account recovery on an account that you sold

[Spider-Dan]

An account is ethereal, so after changing your quote like so and assuming Players A and B were strangers before the transaction, the justification becomes quite lucid, does it not?

You do realize that the exact transaction you described (as modified by you) would be considered fraud*, right?

If you sell me a barrel of moonbeams and then take them back without refunding my money, you've committed fraud*. You're attempting to make the discussion about the moonbeams (which is debatably fraud*) when it's actually about you keeping my money (which is clearly fraud*).

*I think this is actually closer to larceny, but IANAL.

[Vodou]

At the end of the day, both parties should be aware of the fact that neither actually have ownership of the account or anything on it, the only thing you can trade is the information required to access it. Sure its a dick move to recall an account or buy an item then chargeback the money through paypal or credit card company. However, its not illegal...

Wrong.

Selling something with the INTENT of retrieving the item from the buyer without permission (i.e., deceptively obtaining value from the seller) is fraud. And in most parts of the planet, fraud is in fact illegal. People are convicted of fraud everyday for things just like this. Just because you don't see cases of it for MMO accounts does not make it legal.

So to clarify for you and Wrish:

1) the item does not have to be owned by the seller to be fraud (otherwise selling the Brooklyn bridge or rights to songs you don't own would not be fraud)

2) the item does not have to exist (otherwise selling a painting that you don't have or land that does not exist would not be fraud)

3) it does not have to be tangible (otherwise accepting cash in order to introduce someone to a famous person or to get someone into a concert while being fully aware you had no intention or capability of doing so would not be fraud)

4) it does not have to be personal property and portable (otherwise selling memberships to clubs or access to cable services that you do not plan to deliver would not be fraud.)

Not to continue but you should not get the point (lucid enough?)

The main elements of fraud are:

offering something (service, item, etc) to someone in exchange for something (item, service,etc.), with the INTENT of not providing the item or of recalling the item (or offering a lesser or defective item or the same item / service with added costs or strings). Then accepting the item / service from the buyer and not delivering the agreed item / service under the agreed conditions.

There is no requirement that the seller actually own the account or that the buyer actually be aware that the account actually belongs to SE. It's not relevant. If the buyer offers to give the account for $xxx and the seller provides $xxx to the seller and the buyer has intent prior to the transaction to recall the account, it's fraud.

Depending on how the seller conveys the sale and how much it's for. there may be elements of mail fraud, grand larceny, bank fraud and other types of felonies.

Once again, its simply wrong to say that the seller has to own it and / or that the account has to be tangible for this to be fraud.

The ONLY way for this NOT to be fraud is for the seller to tell the buyer that he will be recalling the account after he receives the cash and to tell that to the buyer BEFORE the sale takes place.

[Lucavi]

I haven't read every post, but RMT has been around since the UO days (hell maybe even with some MUDs) the thing is, you're not buying any property, you're paying for the work someone else put into that property, which isn't illegal and why it won't be outlawed anywhere.

And to you people saying "why buy stuff for a dying game?" I bet if you looked hard enough, you can still buy in-game for Diablo2.

You don't have to look hard. Every game in Diablo II is flooded with bots that spam websites for buying everything from rune words to uniques to fully-dressed characters.

People actually spend money on them as well.

What's sad about this entire debate is that when I go to the FFXIV forums and read what people are looking forward to the most, its always playing with "the great FFXI community and my fellow BG brothers and sisters."

That sounds great, really. We're all looking forward to seeing old friends. However, are people forgetting that -this- thread is also a part of that "great FFXI community"? That the same people that cheated in a "hobby", justified it, and are still vilified, will still be playing that next game?

If the same loopholes and dodgy mechanics are introduced to the next game, this exact thing will happen again. It happens in many other games as well (at least the account selling/theft part).

Is this also a part of that "wonderful community" that you're looking forward to experiencing again? The community that will bot, cheat, and cut corners, and then will justify it with "you mad" posts and wordplay?

I had a lot of fun with guys like Mojo in-game. I didn't know what became of him, as I quit the game long, long ago, but I can't justify cheating or stealing or bilking the system, simply because it's a hobby. People get killed for cheating in hobbies or games all the time - its just that those games or hobbies are played up close, and not over the safety of the intrawebs.

SE had better step up to the plate for the next MMO, because as is evidenced in this thread, and has been evidenced ever since this game came out (JPs were cheating it up as well from the get-go), some people will do -anything-, and take -any- approach to benefiting themself once they lose their attachment to whatever they're engaged in, or, sometimes, because of that attachment.

[Tagus]

People get killed for cheating in hobbies or games all the time

what?

[Wrish]

Selling something with the INTENT of retrieving the item is fraud.

That's not the definition of fraud. A fraud is an intentional lie. It is a misrepresentation specifically to induce someone to make a deal on goods/property.

Retrieving someone's property without their permission is plain larceny. That has nothing to do with the buyer/seller pair and is inapplicable to the game, as the account data reside on SE servers all this time and are owned by SE.

It is impractical to prove the prior intent of recall that you mention. You could also at time of sale lack any intent to recall the account... you could even fail to know it's possible... and only later decide to exercise the privilege SE grants you of recalling it.

Selling an account itself is fraud. As you said, it is a crime to sell something you do not own. So everyone supposedly sells these access codes in lieu of the account. During the sale do they make any guarantees that the access codes will continue to work? They can't. They are missing the third party to the contract - the owner/provider, SE. As long as you provide valid access codes at some point, there is no fraud. You could have a friend call up SE the next hour and notify them to freeze the account. I did that for one of my accounts before (in response to an active hack, for those curious).

And that's why there are no MMOG fraud cases between players except when RMT is endorsed (look up Second Life). These black market sales are as is, and whoever thinks there are any guarantees that the account won't be frozen is deluding themselves.

[Sirenia]

My ex bragged about how he did this on FFXI and WoW. It is a way to scam people and yes I think it is wrong. People who think that this is all right because the other person should not be buying their account anyways are pathetic pieces of scum.

[Lucavi]

what?

Poker? Holdem? 5-card stud? My brother had an acquaintance that was stabbed over cheating in a tournament down in Ocean City. The guy deserved something - there was over 10 grand in that tournament.

[Dramafinderftw]

this isnt locked yet?

[Byrthnoth]

I can give my personal answer... I'm ok with it because it makes me happy that there is a risk of getting fucked when you cheat.

I'm with this, and I think Account Recall/random account lockage has been SE's best defense against account selling/trading.

[Therin]

this isnt locked yet?

Why do all RMT and cheaters refuse to acknowledge the existence of people who disagree with them?

[Dramafinderftw]

Why do all RMT and cheaters refuse to acknowledge the existence of people who disagree with them?

I know they are out there, and I just don't give a fuck. If you are stupid enough to get scammed, you deserve it.

[Kyten]

So could there be any legal problems over this or no? Does the person that bought it just get fucked and nothing happens? If so, that sucks ass, but like it has been mentioned before this could go in a huge circle because they shouldn't have bought it anyway etc etc..

[Dramafinderftw]

So could there be any legal problems over this or no? Does the person that bought it just get fucked and nothing happens? If so, that sucks ass, but like it has been mentioned before this could go in a huge circle because they shouldn't have bought it anyway etc etc..

you can't do anything, maybe if your lucky you can get it locked but highly unlikely.

[Ohaigaiz]

i cannot express in any form how furious i am with the heartache i am faced with

sold my wow account for 800$. bought an ffxi account for 350$(really really wanted to play. first time i ever bought anything 'virtual'). buyer recalled his money after 7 days. about 2-3 months pass. account stolen from someone considered to be a very good friend. collections agency bills me for 350$. virtual goods are non tangible therefore i am responsible for the debt owed. i am out an account and have a huge black mark on my credit score for a chain of events i had no responsibility for.

life has been going so shitty lately i'm probably going to kill myself

[Therin]

So could there be any legal problems over this or no? Does the person that bought it just get fucked and nothing happens? If so, that sucks ass, but like it has been mentioned before this could go in a huge circle because they shouldn't have bought it anyway etc etc..

Legally, no.

If you buy an M16 on the black market and it doesn't work right and blows your hand off when you try to fire, you can't really go to a lawyer and try to sue the guy who illegitimately sold it to you.

[Howard Roark]

I actually sold my account a year ago, and you know what I did when i wanted to play again? I contacted the buyer and asked if he was still using it. And I bought it back, like any other tradeable commodity.

Intellectual property whatever, I sold the right to use the achievements and levels I invested time to bring about and when I wanted it back I paid to use the same.


I understand how people view selling accounts, and in the end I regret doing so but not for any moral highground that I equate with as being no beter than a catholic looking down on 'heathens', but moreso that I wanted to keep the account I put all that work into.

[Vodou]

Some good points although the excerpt you snipped from my post was somewhat disingenuous. My post was clearly summarizing the events, but no worries.

That's not the definition of fraud. A fraud is an intentional lie. It is a misrepresentation specifically to induce someone to make a deal on goods/property.

Retrieving someone's property without their permission is plain larceny. That has nothing to do with the buyer/seller pair and is inapplicable to the game, as the account data reside on SE servers all this time and are owned by SE.

It is impractical to prove the prior intent of recall that you mention. You could also at time of sale lack any intent to recall the account... you could even fail to know it's possible... and only later decide to exercise the privilege SE grants you of recalling it.

Selling an account itself is fraud. As you said, it is a crime to sell something you do not own. So everyone supposedly sells these access codes in lieu of the account. During the sale do they make any guarantees that the access codes will continue to work? They can't. They are missing the third party to the contract - the owner/provider, SE. As long as you provide valid access codes at some point, there is no fraud. You could have a friend call up SE the next hour and notify them to freeze the account. I did that for one of my accounts before (in response to an active hack, for those curious).

And that's why there are no MMOG fraud cases between players except when RMT is endorsed (look up Second Life). These black market sales are as is, and whoever thinks there are any guarantees that the account won't be frozen is deluding themselves.

Here's the whole thing if you want the definition (so you don't have to take a sliver out of my entire post again.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

Common law fraud has nine elements:[1], [2]

1. a representation of an existing fact;
2. its materiality;
3. its falsity;
4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.


If you merely steal something it might be larceny. If you induce someone to give you something of value following the items 1-9 above, then it's fraud. This is an example. Refer to the above 9 if you want it spelled out.

In fraud, burglary, larceny, extortion, blackmail, etc you can gain something from another person. It's how you gain it that legally determines which felony you've committed.

Per point 4, the seller has to know it's not his account to sell (and per #3 it is in fact not his account to sell), in order to commit fraud on the sale of SE's account. That is completely separate from whether the seller is committing fraud in intending to sell and then recall the account. (They are 2 totally separate felonies potentially.) Selling the account by obvious inference means the seller will relinquish permanent claim on the account. When you sell knowing that you do not intend to do that, it satisfies items 3/4 as easily as selling an account you know you do not own. They are equivalent.

The falsity in item 3 is ANY falsity of which in item 4 the seller is aware of. It could be misrepresentation that the account could be sold or misrepresentation that the seller would permanently relinquish claim to the account. It could be either or both. The seller could be in error on who owns the account but still by representing he is planning to relinquish permanent control (but planning instead to recall), he is fulfilling the requirements on item 3 and 4.

Again to this point:

Selling an account itself is fraud.

It is not fraud if the seller does not know this.


In the case of the OP we do not know I guess if he intended to recall the account when he sold it or whether he know it was not his to sell. In the case of at least one of the posters in this thread who did a recall, we know he did plan to recall it.

So on the surface, the first person committed a type of larceny on the recall, possibly fraud if he intended to recall (prior to the sale), and possibly fraud on the sale (if he knew he could not sell the account). In the second case its clearly fraud on the intent to recall, and possibly fraud on the sale.

As to why these are not being prosecuted, who says they aren't? I'm not sure of your source, but no US or State attorney's call me to tell me what they are doing, so maybe you could post some support for this.

If you think that a buyer has no recourse due to buying an account or due to being RMT, then I think you are gravely mistaken. The buyer does NOT have recourse to retrieve the account (that's totally true)....that has nothing to do with having recourse to retrieve monies.

If you think that's a civil matter, I disagree. These are felonies.

There is no dispute over the facts. (It's not as if the buyer failed to pay, or paid less than asked or the accounts were banned, all of which indicate the seller might have been acting on good faith and thus could send these matters to a civil court.)

These are clearly where the seller either committed theft or committed fraud. Theft and fraud fall under criminal not civil courts.

[Kaishen]

Legally, no.

If you buy an M16 on the black market and it doesn't work right and blows your hand off when you try to fire, you can't really go to a lawyer and try to sue the guy who illegitimately sold it to you.

Except that the reason you couldn't do it with the M-16 example is that you purchased the M-16 illegally. Selling access to an FFXI account is not illegal - it is merely grounds for SE to terminate your service.

[Vodou]

Legally, no.

If you buy an M16 on the black market and it doesn't work right and blows your hand off when you try to fire, you can't really go to a lawyer and try to sue the guy who illegitimately sold it to you.

If you mean, can the buyer file a civil suit, then yes they can. Will a civil jury give them an ear, it's hard to say. Would the buyer want to admit buying the M16, it's hard to say, but the buyer will likely get immunity from the feds in a separate case anyway, so I the buyer may not have to worry.

However, if you are saying that a seller of illegal goods has no legal concerns if their products injure people, then that's certainly wrong. If a cocaine seller, sells drugs laced with cyanide, then the seller will have a huge legal issue, regardless of how illegal buying and using cocaine is.

Felonies are not just applied to bad people doing things to good people. They apply when it happens to bad people too. It's not totally rare to see cases where both plaintiff and defendant are guilty of felonies. That's one of the points for immunity.

[Howard Roark]

I mean, I'm not blind, I understand that in extreme cases, aggressive RMT companies obtain fully levelled and geared accounts that hard working players helped their seeming friends to improve etc as well as their subsequent actions, monopolizing NM's etc.

but that's competition, I don't know why people just roll over like that, it's not like legit players weren't also aggressive and resorting to 3rd party tools etc


as for RMT in terms of gil buying and selling provides an avenue for people who are too lazy, inept or simply don't have the time to put in the time to make gil, in all honesty I never cared less one way or the other about this and again I view it as simply another marketable product

don't like the misuse of someone's intellectual property? don't download music/movies/watch free porn


so many hypocrites in this thread
edit: again to reiterate on topic: recalling is fkin low and a friend of mine suggested I do it but I couldn't bring myself to do something like that, even though I had no real obligation to my buyer other than basic fking moral decency