Magic Accuracy and INT

[FailureMidgard]

I thought you just need 2 macc to raise land rate by 1% when under 50% total land rate? 3% land rate = 6 macc, unless i'm missing somehting.

So you're saying 2 macc = 1% land rate at <50% land rate, and 1 macc = 1% land rate at >50% land rate? Is this commonly accepted/proven? Seems like there should be a test in there confirming this, if he wants to make the claims he did, keep int/skill constant, and change macc only?

[pchan]

I
(2) The 1-(1-p)^2 Conversion

Lodeguy never specifically mentions that this geometric distribution holds true for 1/4th and 1/8th resists. The first mention of this comes from Robonosto here. In it, he mentions that the data "seems to fit" and that it is the most logical way to program this phenomenon; however, it is never statistically been shown to be true. Until it is, this is something we must keep in mind as all the percentages used in the "raw data" are based on this formula which "seems to fit", but lacks statistical proof. Again, it does not negate the data set - it is just something to keep in mind.

The p / p(1-p) / (1-p)^2 was actually first introduced by me on the wiki resist page a while before it was posted on BG, just based on personnal tests on qiqirns and imps. They all show this kind of distribution, which makes sense from a programming point of view, as it means that 1/8 resists have the probability to roll 1-p three time, 1/4 resist is the probability to roll 1-p twice then to roll p etc. Basically imagine you cast 3 coins with probability p to have a "face", then the game decides that you don't resist if you get <p on the first try, that you resist 1/2 of you got <p on first try but 1-p on second and so on.





you can find here all my tests, and verify that the p / p(1-p) / p(1-p)^2 / (1-p)^3 works nicely.


http://rapidshare.com/files/34979264..._bis_.ods.html


Now for bind, you could argue on the validity of partial resists even existing. Well the test show it. Test 2 gives a resist rate of 3.87% with +/- 0.4% error. So you can't be at 5%. Therefore there is at least one partial resist (no idea what it is, probably half duration). I was too lazy to statistically prove it by casting bind on pup with absolutely no int/skill/mac gear, and verify if the minimum visual landing rate is 10% or 14% (clearly it can't be more).

(3) The BLM75/RNG1 Gear Set

Which gear set did you use for these tests (Tests1-5)? Very simple question. You posted your PUP/RDM set. All I am asking is to post the BLM one. No ill-will, no secret backhand attempt to make you look bad. Just want the gear set.

Not sure which gear I used for each test, but blm/rng1 has 246 skill, which is what was listed for skill. After that it's all about ajusting int, while keeping vermillion on the body to keep MP up, less that 62 str (or 63 I don't remember the cap on those) in order to hit for zero. BLM/RNG1 has 58 INT, so 55 is reached by equiping just devotee's mitts +1.

Higher INT is fairly easy to get, but what you want is also not upping your str too much, so RSE feet, errant legs etc are good for this. Also I think i used BLM/SMN for dint=98, sorry for not mentionning this ; it allows high int and same skill. You gain refresh from SJ and can stack errant/mahatma/morrigan gear for +int.

This alone could have been luck;

It is pure luck. I first started tests on rdm, and quickly noticed that I was capping -or almost. So I switched to a job/SJ combo that had access to refresh gear, bind, INT gear choice, -str gear choice, and that I have leveled. Also I wanted the lowest INT as possible, so RNG was used. The reason I used 55 INT is that was the minimum (with devatee mitts +1) int I could get, although I realised later that I had a rse belt with -4 INT on a mule that I kept from dex testings and a -1 int augmented earring... Why do a test with the minimum possible INT ? That's bacause when the hitrates are far the precision in a formula like "x int= y%" hitrate is more precise.

If the latter is true, then test1 was not the actual first test conducted. In which case, which is?

It was the second test since I said I tried RDM first and was capping.

[pchan]

So you're saying 2 macc = 1% land rate at <50% land rate, and 1 macc = 1% land rate at >50% land rate? Is this commonly accepted/proven? Seems like there should be a test in there confirming this, if he wants to make the claims he did, keep int/skill constant, and change macc only?

This has been tested like 2 years ago.. My goal here is dint no skill/magic accuracy.

[Wrish]

I was the one who requested "media." That is a very general term and different people have different ways of documenting their work. But I did first request a parse file.

Verification. Pchan, I venture that you did not manually tabulate 40000+ results of casting bind. How did you automate it? With what parse program, and what version number(s)? Doesn't that program save log files? Haven't you saved some log files or other binary/text evidence to prove how your character spent the time? There are many ways of faking media and log files, but most are not practical on a large scale. They quickly expose even a low human error rate and/or tire out the most enduring of us.

I'm looking for volume of evidence (.rar this stuff up), details, and the telltale consistency of output from a computer. Those say much more than 8 half-lines of data summarizing over 400 game hours.

Scientific method.

Why the high starting INT of +13 on PUP/RDM? You did say Vermillion Cloak, not Ixion ... With that PUP/RDM data we can't even glean the inflection dINT of +15. You seem to have sensed a lower cap of m.acc; where is that raw data?

Test4:skill=246,mac=0,int=73:482/4896=68.62%@[67.32,69.98]
Test6:skill=142,mac=8,int=73:3024/3829=11.13%@[10.41,11.86]
Test4 total mac - Test 6 total mac = 96
(68 - 50) + (50 - 11) * 2 = 96  ;; inflection point of m.acc vs. accuracy at 50% resist rate, figured *on top of* dINT penalty.
Worst use of INT: when landing rate below 50%, and dINT already >15, increasing the landing rate by 1% takes 4 INT

[pchan]

I was the one who requested "media." That is a very general term and different people have different ways of documenting their work. But I did first request a parse file.

Verification. Pchan, I venture that you did not manually tabulate 40000+ results of casting bind. How did you automate it? With what parse program, and what version number(s)? Doesn't that program save log files? Haven't you saved some log files or other binary/text evidence to prove how your character spent the time? There are many ways of faking media and log files, but most are not practical on a large scale. They quickly expose even a low human error rate and/or tire out the most enduring of us.

I'm looking for volume of evidence (.rar this stuff up), details, and the telltale consistency of output from a computer. Those say much more than 8 half-lines of data summarizing over 400 game hours.

Scientific method.

Idiot.

Why the high starting INT of +13 on PUP/RDM? You did say Vermillion Cloak, not Ixion ... With that PUP/RDM data we can't even glean the inflection dINT of +15. You seem to have sensed a lower cap of m.acc; where is that raw data?

Test4:skill=246,mac=0,int=73:482/4896=68.62%@[67.32,69.98]
Test6:skill=142,mac=8,int=73:3024/3829=11.13%@[10.41,11.86]
Test4 total mac - Test 6 total mac = 96
(68 - 50) + (50 - 11) * 2 = 96  ;; inflection point of m.acc vs. accuracy at 50% resist rate, figured *on top of* dINT penalty.
Worst use of INT: when landing rate below 50%, and dINT already >15, increasing the landing rate by 1% takes 4 INT

No clue what you are talking about. PUP/RDM tests have dint=9,15 and 23. Try more, fail less.

[Yugl]

Everyone put on your thinking caps. It's time to articulate the simplest terms in a such a way that makes you look like a professional while at the same time criticizing others.

[Kaeko]

I think Wrish's question is partially valid. You don't need media or whatever, but it would be nice to know how you tabulated the data. By hand, by automated parser, or some other method (take the notepad file and GREP it or something). Just to restate AGAIN, regardless of your answer it doesn't invalidate the data. This is a simple thing you should just always explain when you do something like this.

You already inferred (at least to most people here) earlier that you botted ~500-1000 trials a night. Given this, it seems most reasonable that you had some automated data collection. Would just be nice to know exactly what you did. For the record, very few people here give a damn about botting - and certainly not for this. It's not a witch hunt, just trying to learn methodology.

[rog]

He clearly used a bot to cast, and a parser to record the data. Why are we still on this?

[Kaeko]

Because the actual methodology is unclear. For instance, in the OP, he says he uses bind because it tends to wear off in less than 20 seconds. However, reading the most recent posts and seeing him describe STR mods and the 1D event rod, it seems like he's meleeing to break bind? That isn't mentioned and I don't understand why the "it wears off in less than 20 seconds" is relevant. Also, why pick the mob that doesn't aggro when you enfeeble it if you're going to melee? So what exactly was he doing?

If
(1) Meleeing to break bind, then why choose this target and why even bother mentioning that it wears in 20 seconds.
(2) Standing without aggro casting bind, what is the purpose of equipping -STR and 1D rod gear?

Also, if he is meleeing to break bind, wouldn't this eventually kill the mob? I know it's like tickling a mob to death, but if you're doing 500 binds that will eventually kill it early probably? How does this affect the potential bot procedure, etc.?

[Massimo]

He's hitting for 0, thus keeping the mob on him (and it means it won't attack him, since it's a goldfish), and allows him to spam over and over. Hits for 0 also does not break Bind.

Edit: To clarify, Kaeko; he's using a D1 weapon with -1 fSTR to make his base damage 0.

And lol @Calli.

[Callisto]

He clearly used a bot to cast, and a parser to record the data. Why are we still on this?

I read that as 'used a cat to post' and I was like wow, that explains so much

[Kaeko]

He's hitting for 0, thus keeping the mob on him (and it means it won't attack him, since it's a goldfish), and allows him to spam over and over. Hits for 0 also does not break Bind.

K thanks.

Also, doesn't the duration on bind vary? It typically won't last you 40 seconds, but it can. 500+ trials you're bound to see it. Am I just crazy and bind really can't last 40 seconds? If it can, then how are you adjusting for the possibility of attempting a cast when the previous has not worn yet? Do you just throw those out as neither land or miss?

[Raen Ryong]

I read that as 'used a cat to post' and I was like wow, that explains so much

Holy lol

[Suiram]

Since it seems to have been a subject of some dispute, yesterday I also checked the INT of the EM Hpemdes and found it to be 58.

The information on ffxiclopedia for negative dINT is incorrect as someone pointed out already. This is because the evolution of that page began with information from a JP wiki and was corrected and expanded over time, and that piece was among the remaining unverified parts. A couple years ago I determined it was incorrect and changed the BG-wiki version to remove that part, but never did get around to determining exactly what does happen at that point. In general if you want to find a mob's INT and you're on BLM it's better just to get relatively high INT like 100 (something where you'll be reasonably assured to have positive dINT) and then work backwards from there.

[Callisto]

K thanks.

Also, doesn't the duration on bind vary? It typically won't last you 40 seconds, but it can. 500+ trials you're bound to see it. Am I just crazy and bind really can't last 40 seconds? If it can, then how are you adjusting for the possibility of attempting a cast when the previous has not worn yet? Do you just throw those out as neither land or miss?

40 may be pressing it tbh, I'm not sure my exact Bind timer as RDM but I know it's rather low, especially as /SCH, and I still have even weak mobs having it wear off within a few seconds of it wearing. Generally the biggest difference in variance I've seen is in the damage it will take before breaking.

[Wrish]

Because the actual methodology is unclear.

To me methodology is secondary to whether all of this is valid data at all, given the sheer difficulty of repeating these exact conditions. Whether it's Kparse or ffrep or some old parser, the results would probably be nearly identical and, where occasionally erroneous, not suggestive of systematic bias.

The OpenOffice spreadsheet I just now see is a step in that direction toward verifiability and credibility. I'm importing with Excel and that seems to strip all formulas, but after initial spot checking it seems to pass.

[rog]

40 second binds are absolutely possible. I've definitely rested 3 tics before while soloing faust, which requires at least a 43ish second bind (accounting for time spent running away). It's very rare though, and in the end if a bind does last longer than his recast, it just wastes 40 seconds, assuming his parser completely ignored no effect messages, as it should have.

[Kaeko]

40 second binds are absolutely possible. I've definitely rested 3 tics before while soloing faust, which requires at least a 43ish second bind (accounting for time spent running away). It's very rare though, and in the end if a bind does last longer than his recast, it just wastes 40 seconds, assuming his parser completely ignored no effect messages, as it should have.

I take it parser distinguishes between resist and "no effect"? That was really the issue I had with the 40+ second bind since it if could not tell the difference it would alter the ultimate results. If it just throws it out, that's a tad shaky, but given the retardedness of not automating this procedure it's a small deal.

[Kaeko]

More questions:

(1) Did you ignore day of the week (not caring about Ice and Firesday in particular)?

(2) You mentioned that you actually attempted this on RDM first but found the resist rates too low. Did you happen to keep this data? If so, I recommend you post it and just explain what happened.

[charlo]

Just to point out.
I'm on the same server as was massimus (old ls leader) and he may/may not remember.
Going to limbus and seeing pchan in the gear posted in sea and thought it was strange, knowing what gear he has.
The best reason i could think of, although still strange was soloing pics from flowers trying to keep inv space and not bothering to change job, but now i know.
This has got to be near a month ago now maybe a bit less.

And for the record i got kicked from a shell pchan and his buddies were in near when i strated the game so im not exactly a pchan lover from the getgo and i think he can come across as stuck up.
But hats off for his tests. Also remember him posting his other tests on QCDN.