FFXIV at Vanafest

[Lucavi]

When there's nothing to do in the game besides kill things/people for gear... how is obtaining gear not the only possible enjoyment? lol

So what's FFXI? In 2005 it was a rotation of Sky, Dynamis and Kings. In 2010 its a rotation of Kings, Salvage, Nyuzul, and Dynamis.

You're still doing nothing but fighting to get gear. The only difference is the fact that it can take months to get a single item in FFXI.

Lets take a look at some of the other things you can do in FFXI.

Chocobo raising? WoW has mounts of different colors, sizes and speeds.
Gardening? Craft; WoW has em.
Besieged? Killing things.
Campaign? Killing things for loot.
Ballista? PVP for chevrons that (surprise!) no one does anymore.
Help others with various stuff? This is supposedly where 90% of said "community" comes in, but its the same thing. Killing stuff for someone else - you can do the same in WoW.
Sitting around in Whitegate/Jueno? Can do it in WoW.
Assaults? Killing things for loot.
Limbus? Killing things for loot.
AV? Trying to kill things for loot.
PW? Trying to kill things for loot.
Missions? Fetch and kill quests for quasi-loot.
Pankration? Pokemon dungeon for no tangible rewards. Surprise! No one does it.
Chocobo racing? Playing a crusty guessing game for tiny rewards. Surprise! No one does it.
BCNMs? Killing things for loot.
KSNMs? Killing things for loot.
Xping? Killing things for experience.
Meriting? Killing things for upgrades that haven't been added to in years. I quit over two years ago and my Drg still cannot get any stronger than it was back then. At 15 bucks a month to play a MMO for a sense of progression, I'd be down hundreds of dollars for essentially no growth on my favorite character. Hell, merits alone would have been enough of a justification for me to at least play my toon again to get a little stronger.

I could go on, but those grasping at straws at trying to claim that somehow WoW is more mundane than FF is a fool. Both are MMOs at the core - killing things for loot, or doing other things for "fun"/loot. Its just that one actually rewards you at a decent clip, while the other side-grades you to death, thus allowing you to still get away with using kings and HNM gear from 5 years ago in many slots.

[Destinye]

Not even sure why WoW is even in the coversation other than making a joke here and there. It's simple, really, FFXIV will either be great because SE learned a lot from their failures in XI or it'll be just another game people try out for the first free month and go back to what they were doing before it.

SE has one at-bat this time around to hit the homerun. People will be more skeptical and leave a hell of a lot quicker this time around if there is much carry over BS that plagued XI. Hopefully they have learned from their mistakes and the whole system that FFXIV is built upon can be easily adjusted so they have no excuses as to why something cannot be changed.

Thing is though a lot of the "failures" of FFXI are players being butthurt more so than design flaws. FFXIV could be the perfect MMO and if SE doesn't bend to a player's demand it will be deemed a failure.

WoW may be successful, but it's hard to miss how listening to the players a lot of the time ruins the game balancing every patch or every other patch for better or for worse. People will be skeptical because most of the people who deemed FFXI a failure can't lie and say "It's not because SE didn't listen to my silly demands or did something to the ground kings blah blah", when most of the gripes against FFXI are:

HNM/Ground Kings
Customer Service
"I log in but SE won't hand me gil and gear for being online for 2 minutes." (aka "Reward: Time Ratio is stupid")
"There's nothing to do because I refuse to do anything that doesn't make me a rich bitch or pimped out gear."
"It takes forever to find parties because I refuse to make a party." (aka "Retardedly long LFG times.)

So when you look past the personal gripes with FFXI it's not that bad of a MMORPG, it's lasted 8 years with a fairly decent player base and people who didn't play in 2002 will never truly see how much SE has indeed improved.

[Lucavi]

Thing is though a lot of the "failures" of FFXI are players being butthurt more so than design flaws. FFXIV could be the perfect MMO and if SE doesn't bend to a player's demand it will be deemed a failure.

WoW may be successful, but it's hard to miss how listening to the players a lot of the time ruins the game balancing every patch or every other patch for better or for worse. People will be skeptical because most of the people who deemed FFXI a failure can't lie and say "It's not because SE didn't listen to my silly demands or did something to the ground kings blah blah", when most of the gripes against FFXI are:

HNM/Ground Kings
Customer Service
"I log in but SE won't hand me gil and gear for being online for 2 minutes." (aka "Reward: Time Ratio is stupid")
"There's nothing to do because I refuse to do anything that doesn't make me a rich bitch or pimped out gear."
"It takes forever to find parties because I refuse to make a party." (aka "Retardedly long LFG times.)

So when you look past the personal gripes with FFXI it's not that bad of a MMORPG, it's lasted 8 years with a fairly decent player base and people who didn't play in 2002 will never truly see how much SE has indeed improved.

You're missing a big point, and probably the biggest point: SE cannot, could not, and will not ever make a perfect product, and that is WHY they must continue to make changes and fixes to their product. Blizzard will never make a perfect game, and that is WHY they make so many changes and try to implement new features.

Your point is lost because you're dealing in an absolute that will never occur. Yes, people complain, but typically it is because they have a reason to complain, or at least, a justification behind said complaint. You can claim that everyone is just a big fat whiner, and its the popular thing to do for those on the other side of the fence, but theirs is just like yours - an opinion over what they feel should happen. You want everything to stay the same, and they want things to change that they feel are unfair.

Its up to the devs to decide who is right, and their "right or wrong" decisions will determine how populated and popular their game becomes.

Blizzard's ideas don't always work - I feel that this new gearscore is a joke - but they continue to try and implement new things and address problems that come up.

The Blizzard Devs (Ghostcrawler) in particular shares a piece of your sentiment. He always makes a point that the most active (read: loud) posters and criers for nerfs and buffs aren't the ones he listens to the most. Its what the people that are playing the game are talking about that matters more-so than what those people that stand on the forum soapbox and cry that their quitting.

However, he still pays attention to those overreacting and making solid points on the forums, and more to the point, what he and others "typically" gets right is that once they see that something is off, they make a point to try to fix it within a decent amount of time.

How long were 2-handers rendered as absolute shit compared to dual-wielders in FFXI? At the very least, 3 and a half years. SE eventually fixed it, but it took forever. They actually fixed it too much, and broke it the other way, before eventually bringing it into a happy medium.

Kings bottlenecking and abuse is easy to target. Absurdly long LFG times were easy to target. I perfer to mention things that sucked, but didn't take as much flak as others, like the 2-handed situation. We could all speak at lengths about utsusemi being broken, but really, if the vit/defense design wasn't so screwed to begin with, choosing to dodge hits wouldn't have been a problem over tanking things.

For effect, think about how long it took for them to look at shield blocks. What was it, at least 4 and a half years? You let utsusemi run rampant for that long?

Its the length of time not just for rewards (I can handle that, so long as I don't feel like I'm getting slighted in other areas), but for fixes and upgrades that irked me. Why haven't there been any new merits? You introduce a system that was honestly high quality, and worked well with your design policy that you weren't going to raise the level cap. You upgrade it -once-, and send it out to pasture for years afterwards. People are no stronger now than they were 3 years ago. The sparse upgrades in gear between ToAU launch and today are nominal in terms of the power upgrade that people received between RotZ launch and ToAU.

Job imbalance lasted too long as well. I'd rather have a system where everyone gets a piece of the pie at least for awhile, then it switches, than one where beastmasters have always had the short end of the stick, while Samurai have always been a strong-to-insane job. Some jobs, like ninja, have fallen by the wayside, but I call that justice for being the be-all end-all for years.

Can a company identify problems or flaws and quickly resolve them? That is my criteria for what makes a MMO successful in the end. A pretty game with a fun battle system will always serve for a good launch - Warhammer had a fun system and pretty good graphics - but barring an addictive playerbase, will a company look at their product objectively, realize that their designs weren't and never will be perfect, and seek to improve them? Japan has historically had a problem taking constructive criticism with their products, and while its human nature to love what you've created, a little hubris goes a long way, especially when trying to capture a huge player-base.

FFXI is in no way shape or form a failure: on the contrary, it is an excellent game for its time, and helped pave the way for future MMOs alongside EQ, Asheron's, WoW, and others, but I can only imagine how much better it could have been if some of the changes that came (2-handed adjustment, shield mastery system, LFG improvements, increased soloable content) came earlier, and in their place came additional changes and an attention to dead areas (pankration, ballista, brenner, ect.)

[Whaleporn]

FFXIV could be the perfect MMO and if SE doesn't bend to a player's demand it will be deemed a failure.

The entire point of a game is to entertain the person playing. Perhaps through challenge, perhaps through other means.

A good game... listen to this numb-nuts, a good game challenges the player in a way that forces them to obtain further mastery of said game to overcome the challenge.

A good game makes sure that if there's frustration it's because the player is attempting things which are at or above their level of personal best skill, not because the game itself is unresponsive, or it seems like the game is broken, or it seems like said challenge is entirely at the whim of the RNG.

There is literally one fight in FFXI where I felt frustration based on raw challenge rather then frustration because hurf durf not enough DDs showed up at 2PM sunday. That's Maat back when I was a level 70 red mage with no money and a shitty LQ wind staff.

Everything else tended to be frustration over not having the right number of people. I think my LS had 3 teir III Einharjar in a row one month where we lost at 10-20 percent of the bosses HP left because we went in with 26. We could never get above 25 people for dynamis Xarcabard, and guess what? 15 of those players were the type of gamer who somehow never improved their skills.

You know why?

FFXI was a bad game. It failed to make most of the challenges interesting. The only draw that kept me playing for as long as I did was that planning out how to attack an event changed because I never knew if I'd have the ideal jobs or if I'd have to bang out something creative. Even then most fights were 1v18 and there's only so much strategy when 99 percent special moves are all damage or debuff AoE. Every fight would fall under the catagory of 'gear check'. I think theres only a handful of battles where deviant mechanics come into play and even then it's up to one person (the guy yelling at people in LS chat/Vent) to actually understand what to do.

But yeah, clearly glorious nippon gave us a perfect, unblemished gem of a game that our inferior gajin minds could not appreciate. A masterpiece that, dare I say it, rivals even Harumi season 2 as the greatest of all works of human civilization. Anyone who looks at MMOs where progression exists and drives a portion of the games fun or expects 14 to turn 11's resplendant grind into an actually engaging long term series of challenges and rewards that promotes personal skill rather then luck from the RNG and groups... are simply slack-jawed yokels and do not deserve to play 14! *snorts, whispers baka, alt tabs back to gelbooru as the other hand reaches for lotion*

PS: destiny you are still the worst poster on BG.

[Whaleporn]

You're missing a big point, and probably the biggest point: SE cannot, could not, and will not ever make a perfect product, and that is WHY they must continue to make changes and fixes to their product. Blizzard will never make a perfect game, and that is WHY they make so many changes and try to implement new features.

Your point is lost because you're dealing in an absolute that will never occur. Yes, people complain, but typically it is because they have a reason to complain, or at least, a justification behind said complaint. You can claim that everyone is just a big fat whiner, and its the popular thing to do for those on the other side of the fence, but theirs is just like yours - an opinion over what they feel should happen. You want everything to stay the same, and they want things to change that they feel are unfair.

Its up to the devs to decide who is right, and their "right or wrong" decisions will determine how populated and popular their game becomes.

Blizzard's ideas don't always work - I feel that this new gearscore is a joke - but they continue to try and implement new things and address problems that come up.

The Blizzard Devs (Ghostcrawler) in particular shares a piece of your sentiment. He always makes a point that the most active (read: loud) posters and criers for nerfs and buffs aren't the ones he listens to the most. Its what the people that are playing the game are talking about that matters more-so than what those people that stand on the forum soapbox and cry that their quitting.

However, he still pays attention to those overreacting and making solid points on the forums, and more to the point, what he and others "typically" gets right is that once they see that something is off, they make a point to try to fix it within a decent amount of time.

How long were 2-handers rendered as absolute shit compared to dual-wielders in FFXI? At the very least, 3 and a half years. SE eventually fixed it, but it took forever. They actually fixed it too much, and broke it the other way, before eventually bringing it into a happy medium.

Kings bottlenecking and abuse is easy to target. Absurdly long LFG times were easy to target. I perfer to mention things that sucked, but didn't take as much flak as others, like the 2-handed situation. We could all speak at lengths about utsusemi being broken, but really, if the vit/defense design wasn't so screwed to begin with, choosing to dodge hits wouldn't have been a problem over tanking things.

For effect, think about how long it took for them to look at shield blocks. What was it, at least 4 and a half years? You let utsusemi run rampant for that long?

Its the length of time not just for rewards (I can handle that, so long as I don't feel like I'm getting slighted in other areas), but for fixes and upgrades that irked me. Why haven't there been any new merits? You introduce a system that was honestly high quality, and worked well with your design policy that you weren't going to raise the level cap. You upgrade it -once-, and send it out to pasture for years afterwards. People are no stronger now than they were 3 years ago. The sparse upgrades in gear between ToAU launch and today are nominal in terms of the power upgrade that people received between RotZ launch and ToAU.

Job imbalance lasted too long as well. I'd rather have a system where everyone gets a piece of the pie at least for awhile, then it switches, than one where beastmasters have always had the short end of the stick, while Samurai have always been a strong-to-insane job. Some jobs, like ninja, have fallen by the wayside, but I call that justice for being the be-all end-all for years.

Can a company identify problems or flaws and quickly resolve them? That is my criteria for what makes a MMO successful in the end. A pretty game with a fun battle system will always serve for a good launch - Warhammer had a fun system and pretty good graphics - but barring an addictive playerbase, will a company look at their product objectively, realize that their designs weren't and never will be perfect, and seek to improve them? Japan has historically had a problem taking constructive criticism with their products, and while its human nature to love what you've created, a little hubris goes a long way, especially when trying to capture a huge player-base.

FFXI is in no way shape or form a failure: on the contrary, it is an excellent game for its time, and helped pave the way for future MMOs alongside EQ, Asheron's, WoW, and others, but I can only imagine how much better it could have been if some of the changes that came (2-handed adjustment, shield mastery system, LFG improvements, increased soloable content) came earlier, and in their place came additional changes and an attention to dead areas (pankration, ballista, brenner, ect.)

This would be my constructive non-troll post if I ever made such things. Nicely said.

Oh yeah, while we are at it: Is there any point where the developers actually point out things that are screwed up in 11 then detail why they couldn't ever fix it then explain how 14 would be different? I'd like to see that come up when they present 14.

[Lucavi]

To reinforce the point, Warhammer failed to identify and correct their mistakes early. It is now a dead game.

Age of Conan waited a year too long, and as a result, everyone that first hears Age of Conan thinks of its entirely shitty launch. It is now actually a decent game, but its reputation has been irreparably scarred by the failures of its leadership in addressing glaring problems that even its public beta testers were complaining about.

Lets not even talk about some other doomed games, like Hellgate: London. The road to hell is paved with excellent initial ideas for MMOs, but terrible execution and failures to implement rapid fixes and changes.

FFXI was lucky that it came out as early as it did. Had it launched just a year and a half later (even with an enhanced graphics engine), it wouldn't have faired as well as it did, especially if given the same time-table of upgrades and fixes.

You, Destyne, may be happy with a reskinned FFXI with new hawt mithra models to oogle over, but that will not make for a long-running and successful MMO. SE must show that they have not only learned from their mistakes, but have also done what other successful companies in the industry, and various industries have done: looked around to what others are doing and try to put their own spin on what works and what does.

People don't hate on Goldeneye for "borrowing" from its forefathers in the FPS market. People didn't hate on Forza from "borrowing" from Gran Turismo's realistic driving simulator, who "borrowed" from NFL: Porche Unleashed, who "borrowed" from....

The list goes on and on. Successful companies across the world are the ones who release uniqueness based on a refinement of what already works. Those who claim FFXI was the most original thing ever simply because they slapped FFV on an Everquest model need to be slapped in the face.

It was a great game, but come on. There is MUCH room for improvement there, and in every other game on the planet. Get your heads out of the goddamned sand.

[BRP]

lol, didn't we just get a mod too?

[Lucavi]

Yeah, but she doesn't mind good, honest discussions and debates. We all know we'd only have one, and only one thread with you as the head chef around these parts.

[Falisa]

I am going to agree for the most part with BRP on this thread. BG has had its share of WoW vs FFXI debates to last it a lifetime, as well as the conversation has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Keep it on topic.

[Fawkes]

Hey who thinks the mystery rank 4 and 5 prizes in the nomad mog bonanza at Vanafest might be FFXIV related, like beta access?

I don't, but apparently other people do.

[GRT]

Also, you're a retard for starting this conversation in the FFXIV forum, in a Vanafest thread.

Eaglestrike didn't start this conversation, some FF fanboy did.

As for WoW not being fun because you can grind to 80 in a day, I believe that's exactly what made WoW appealing: it's not about the grind, loltard.

Personally, what made me switch from FF11 to WoW was one thing: Blizzard had a helluva better developer-consumer relationship than FF11. It gave me hope that even if there's something I don't like, it can be fixed because Blizzard listened to its playerbase.

I hear that SE had done better in that department since 2006 or 2007, and that's the reason (beyond better graphs etc etc) why I'll give FF14 a try.

[Kaluuki]

Ok, the WoW shit can stop now.

Staying on topic...


I'm really hoping for at least new game footage, or something. I feel like it might be a big downfall for SE to keep having dry spells of info all the time. I hope it's only like this temporarily due to FFXIII's NA release being close.

...Then again, maybe the game won't be released until like... December, and that's why there isn't a whole lot of stuff in the first place. Oh well. lol

[Whaleporn]

Here I'll give you guys a little sneak preview of the developer interview!
I can't tell you HOW I got this, but it looks like 14 is right on track to be the spiritual successor to 11!
Enjoy!

IGN: So FF14 is going to be the spiritual successor to FF11, which had a very successful run and continues to have a healthy share of the MMO market. What sort of new features do you have that might draw in newer players?

SE: Hahaha, well we looked at the systems and what the players wanted, and there were some debates about how to best implement everything. There were technical issues that came from the hardware we were using and how well it meshed so look for more information in the future but in the end we decided with a system that you'll be quite pleased with hahaha.

IGN: Great! Looking forward to it. It looks like the art direction is pretty similar to FFXI. What sort of graphics, effects, or areas do you want the player to enjoy the monst?

SE: Well, we looked at many locations and, hahaha, came up with an idea that we'd work in older content and newer content so players could understand the system. I'm sure there will be hahahah (laughter) more news as we put in some of things you have requested as players! We think you'll enjoy what we came up with in terms of ahahahah graphics.

IGE: Gameplay we've heard a lot about a jobless system that will be built off equipment. It seems also that crafting jobs will play a major part in the game. What sort of events might a player go through in a typical FF14 day both on the battlefield and off?

SE: Well we looked, (talks to eachother, laughter) we looked at an idea that the director came up with and decided to go with what's going to be in place. It will be included in the future as well as a new summon. This system which may be new to the player but is very final fantasy HAHAHAHA in spirit so *giggle* I think you'll really like what we offer this time around.

ICC: Some critics of FFXI state that there was a slow turn around time on player requested changes, and some issues still persist in terms of balance. What do you think the biggest change is that will draw players back into a SE MMO?

SE: Well looking at what the director had come up with hahahahahahahaha we figure hahahahahaha of course that direction. But there will be more details when we put it in, perhaps in a future interview, but it is pretty risky! but we hope hahahahah players, and we mean you, will feel pleasure at our proposition, that being FF14 in terms of improvements.

CNN: A major issue for all MMOs is RMT (real money traders) who employ cheap labor to exploit game economies, often creating problems for legitimate players. What sorts of steps will you take to curb these problems?

SE: Looking at the past we did well, but not always great, however, hahahhaa, the directer, heh, after considering the player base as a vase, he suggested we, hahaha, implement a new system in 14 that, hahahaha, gil traders will not enjoy but the STFU thinks you will really enjoy, haahaha, this time around.

Gamepro: You mentioned that you wanted to end the interview with a big returning character who players might have met in FF11. Want to let everyone in on the secret?

SE: Hahahahahaha it's cheese sandwiches haahahahaha we think you'll taste the cheese it's so good hahahahahaha.

IGN: Thanks for your time!

[LinktheDeme]

what the fuck were you beat with the retard stick as a toddler? That is probably the most failed fake post of an interview fucking JP people don't laugh.

[Lucavi]

Here I'll give you guys a little sneak preview of the developer interview!
I can't tell you HOW I got this, but it looks like 14 is right on track to be the spiritual successor to 11!
Enjoy!

IGN: So FF14 is going to be the spiritual successor to FF11, which had a very successful run and continues to have a healthy share of the MMO market. What sort of new features do you have that might draw in newer players?

SE: Hahaha, well we looked at the systems and what the players wanted, and there were some debates about how to best implement everything. There were technical issues that came from the hardware we were using and how well it meshed so look for more information in the future but in the end we decided with a system that you'll be quite pleased with hahaha.

IGN: Great! Looking forward to it. It looks like the art direction is pretty similar to FFXI. What sort of graphics, effects, or areas do you want the player to enjoy the monst?

SE: Well, we looked at many locations and, hahaha, came up with an idea that we'd work in older content and newer content so players could understand the system. I'm sure there will be hahahah (laughter) more news as we put in some of things you have requested as players! We think you'll enjoy what we came up with in terms of ahahahah graphics.

IGE: Gameplay we've heard a lot about a jobless system that will be built off equipment. It seems also that crafting jobs will play a major part in the game. What sort of events might a player go through in a typical FF14 day both on the battlefield and off?

SE: Well we looked, (talks to eachother, laughter) we looked at an idea that the director came up with and decided to go with what's going to be in place. It will be included in the future as well as a new summon. This system which may be new to the player but is very final fantasy HAHAHAHA in spirit so *giggle* I think you'll really like what we offer this time around.

ICC: Some critics of FFXI state that there was a slow turn around time on player requested changes, and some issues still persist in terms of balance. What do you think the biggest change is that will draw players back into a SE MMO?

SE: Well looking at what the director had come up with hahahahahahahaha we figure hahahahahaha of course that direction. But there will be more details when we put it in, perhaps in a future interview, but it is pretty risky! but we hope hahahahah players, and we mean you, will feel pleasure at our proposition, that being FF14 in terms of improvements.

CNN: A major issue for all MMOs is RMT (real money traders) who employ cheap labor to exploit game economies, often creating problems for legitimate players. What sorts of steps will you take to curb these problems?

SE: Looking at the past we did well, but not always great, however, hahahhaa, the directer, heh, after considering the player base as a vase, he suggested we, hahaha, implement a new system in 14 that, hahahaha, gil traders will not enjoy but the STFU thinks you will really enjoy, haahaha, this time around.

Gamepro: You mentioned that you wanted to end the interview with a big returning character who players might have met in FF11. Want to let everyone in on the secret?

SE: Hahahahahaha it's cheese sandwiches haahahahaha we think you'll taste the cheese it's so good hahahahahaha.

IGN: Thanks for your time!

The laughs are pretty authentic, I have to admit, and yeah they do Link. You ever seen one of their interviews? There really is a lot of sheepish laughter.

[Kaylia]

. What sort of events might a player go through in a typical FF14 day both on the battlefield and off?

SE: This system which may be new to the player but is very final fantasy HAHAHAHA in spirit so *giggle* I think you'll really like what we offer this time around.

I'm scared.

[Crosius]

SE devs are like Peter Molyneux's Bizzaro world counterparts. If they say anything at vanafest, it will be vague and qualified by "We are thinking about (insert random mechanic)", which in the end may not reflect the final content. If you want real info, wait for the game to come out. If you cant wait, go to their offices and bring a big scary knife.

As for expectations from the Dev Team, remember these are the guys who thought what our game world needed was "horse racing simulation venues", new emotes for wyverns as an improvement to Dragoons, and the Monk JA Footwork.



Footwork....

[Celeras]

I'm scared.

Me too, but only because the moderator closed my other thread and linked me here... without doing a goddamn thing to prune this one. Fucks sake, embarrassing.

[Boom]

I can't tell you HOW I got this

We already know. Boredom + alcohol.

[amentis]

I've never read a developer interview, and have no soul/sense of humor.

FTFY.