I have returned: StarCraft II

[geno]

1100 points, you should be good. Unless you're playing me and my patented build which I cannot reveal for sheer awesomeness.

I really need to play more games, stupid school has been getting in the way recently. Also minecraft, though I'm bored of that now. I think my MMR finally leveled out a bit, but I'm just not playing enough games to gain points (or to even use up the majority of my bonus pool). Maybe this weekend.

[Falaras]

1100 points, you should be good. Unless you're playing me and my patented build which I cannot reveal for sheer awesomeness.

I really need to play more games, stupid school has been getting in the way recently. Also minecraft, though I'm bored of that now. I think my MMR finally leveled out a bit, but I'm just not playing enough games to gain points (or to even use up the majority of my bonus pool). Maybe this weekend.

I feel you there, like 90% of my ladder games took place before classes began. Now I'm just able to play a few here and there, haven't even really had a chance to scout out these new maps.

[geno]

Zerg is hard to play well, regardless of whether or not its balanced. Terran and Protoss are both easier and more intuitive to play well (or I should say, strongly). As for how this manifests in the ladder, I tend to agree with Bweigelt's first post. There are just far more Terran players (and Protoss for that matter) getting away with really strong 1 push timing attacks that are way easier to perform than they are to defend. Zerg doesn't really have anything like that, certainly nothing that works in the 1000+ ranks of diamond.

It get's really evident when you are playing a defensive style and can actually beat their push. I've done it plenty of times as protoss, but I find it most entertaining when I watch my brother break a push as zerg (around 1K diamond as well). It's actually quite funny watching how aimless and confused some players get when they see their push fail. They just lose all focus and have no idea what to do next. The ones that are actually expanding and keeping high worker count, etc. are just not as common as the ones that really push for the strongest possible push and have no followup at all. I haven't seen a zerg style that compares to the numerous 1/2 thor hellion etc style terran pushes or 4 gate or 1base colo pushes that Terran and Protoss players seem to love at that mid diamond range. Zerg's just don't tend to have equivalents. They simply can't get away with it when walls and tight chokes are as effective as they are (I wouldn't call Baneling busts the same thing, but even if they were I haven't really heard of many players getting away with that past high plat / low diamond, not counting the way cool did it as a defense to 2gate > expand).

[geno]

As for balance, I definitely agree mainly with Fal's post on the previous page about the limited useful compositions. Terran has a very set composition they really need to (or should) use against a Protoss and he hit it perfectly. Straying too far starts getting really risky. Zerg is even more limited playing against Terran. Pretty much every good zerg I've seen recently has opened up with a HANDFUL of roaches at most, and follow it up with muta ling baneling, composition dependent on what their opponent is doing. Other tech paths just straight up get destroyed.

I think this may be a strange take on balance, but I actually think a really interesting way to break it down is into game time. I find that in the early game, Terran has the most options and the most ways to end the game. They will be drastically cut if those patch ideas are followed up on (I don't understand why they just don't cut the reaper entirely at this point, it feels so out of place with the rest of the game), but as it stands, Terran just feel the strongest early on. Followed by Protoss and then vastly behind is Zerg.

But, and here's where it gets interesting, if the game goes on long enough and the map starts getting taken, I'd say the equation flips entirely. I find a hive tech 3-4 base Zerg with a good economy AMAZINGLY strong, almost unbeatable. Matching their economy is not enough imo, if you want to keep even as T or P, you NEED to harass and limit their income. I say this all because of the incredible ability of Zerg's to switch tech in the lategame. I remember seeing my brother play a game on meta against a crazy strong protoss where he won simply by brute forcing his way through with unit switches. First massing lings and banelings, moving into ultra ling, switching to 100% baneling, and following up with a muta broodlord attack, then a full forced roach army, all within minutes. It's pretty crazy to see happen.

Terran actually seems to get much weaker later, because they seem so frontloaded. Battlecruisers are strong, but they don't exactly do for terran what adding in ultras and broodlords does for zerg. Not to mention, their critical mass hits a bit earlier, so they do really well with those early armies, but when they are up against a zerg army that is almost pure baneling with some tanking units in front off 4 base, it's not quite the same game. Similarly, Protoss tend to just get stronger late game when they have both colo and templar tech available simultaneously. While terran only adds meat and damage to their army after a point, protoss is adding new units and new abilities, and really changing the way the battle works.

[geno]

edit: making use of accidental triple post

I feel you there, like 90% of my ladder games took place before classes began. Now I'm just able to play a few here and there, haven't even really had a chance to scout out these new maps.

It's bad because I end up playing a bit, doing well, then not getting to play for a full week or more and I lose a lot of confidence in my play. Probably doesn't help I've only played like 70 1v1s, and the majority of the time I'm on my friends want me to play team games (which I still enjoy, gotta work towards archon portrait!).

[Falaras]

Very well put posts, although I will disagree about the baneling bust part seeing as I saw them for a very long time through diamond. I think we will all agree that zerg starts weak and ends strong, its evident by like how Fruitdealer played to just stall until he could get Ultras. While at the same time terran tend to be the mid game aggressors instead of zerg.

That idea of terran just adding meat and damage to their army is actually a really good observation I never really thought about before, considering how much easier it is to tech as terran than zerg/protoss but at the same time you are just building up a stronger army of the same thing instead of adding in new things.

[geno]

Well, I think you can add new things and are sometimes forced to with say, adding ghosts later on to emp or tanks to defend new expansions. But yeah, they are just a lot more responsive late game (as opposed to early game, where they are forcing their opponents to respond). I mean, when a terran adds ghosts, Protoss keep doing the same thing, but maybe work on microing a bit better to dodge EMPs or pick off ghosts. Protoss add templar, and Terran need to respond QUICK with different unit compositions and playstyles or they are dead if they were solely anti-colossus (aka, heavy viking support, no ghosts). I didn't mentioned it, but even the almost unseen mothership (GOD i wish it wasn't so fucking slow), seems to be more of a game changer than anything Terran starts adding later on, Vortexes and Recalls both drastically change the rules of engagement in the matchup if they can get off (not to mention the need for detection).

[tonyg]

So I've been playing a lot more, and I'm up to rank 1 in bronze, but I still end up getting squashed, as I take way too long to start harassing. I tried with a few MMs early game but my opponent either has enough zerglings or zealots to get me down. I tried harassing with hellions but I get squashed so fucking fast if they have 1 or 2 stalkers. I handle mid/late game pretty well considering my lack of harassment, but sometimes it's really the only thing that makes me lose since my opponent is getting a huge economy while I'm still under pressure/building units

[Misuicide]

A Mar push will work quite well, try dropping in 2-3 helions while hitting the front/expo with some mars. Should trash there econ, as mars are very strong against toss early game.

[tonyg]

Should I bother getting the upgrade for hellions or should I just use them in that initial drop where I fuck up their expo?

[Falaras]

Should I bother getting the upgrade for hellions or should I just use them in that initial drop where I fuck up their expo?

That is a judgement call really, blue flame hellion harass can be super deadly but at the same time it takes a long time to research and costs extra gas. I tend to favor a 4 hellion early drop to waiting for blue flame to finish.

Honestly though in the bronze league harassing isn't neccesary at all (probably won't be until Platinum). Just work on your basics, macroing is a huge deal and timings/build orders are game breakers. There isn't some win all secret strategy to use you just have to get used to the game and when you can do things like expand or attack, or when you have to stay behind to defend.

[Kaylia]

So I've been playing a lot more, and I'm up to rank 1 in bronze, but I still end up getting squashed, as I take way too long to start harassing. I tried with a few MMs early game but my opponent either has enough zerglings or zealots to get me down. I tried harassing with hellions but I get squashed so fucking fast if they have 1 or 2 stalkers. I handle mid/late game pretty well considering my lack of harassment, but sometimes it's really the only thing that makes me lose since my opponent is getting a huge economy while I'm still under pressure/building units

I personally go for 4 hellions with blue flammes, I usually have it upgraded by the time the medivac spawn.


Anyway...don't uses any strategy. Works on your macroing for now, defend against cheese, build a strong army and roll over your opponent. aftre you get 2 bases. If you can keep up with the scv production, expand when you reach 30 scv, then transfert some scv while keeping up units production, you will always be ahead at this point in bronze league. Just add a scout to make sure they aren't massing t1 units (in this case, get a proper counter)

[Not Kuno]

Ok.


I lied to one of my students today and told them I was plat and now they want to vs me. I suck at sc2. Any advice?

[Rehn]

Well, you can always fall back on the old adage of "being plat/diamond doesn't mean much." But you're kinda screwed either way since he can just check your profile no?

[Misuicide]

Just say you got demoted

[Rehn]

If you play terran, could just marine/marauder him with stimpack and hope for the best.

[Kaylia]

Ok.


I lied to one of my students today and told them I was plat and now they want to vs me. I suck at sc2. Any advice?

6 pool rush. Show them who is the boss.


I'm pretty sure any gamers can get to platinum league with very little practice, just a good game plan. Keep a good scv production, and mass a strong unit combo (mmm, mass stalker, hydra+roach+ling).

If you want to get to platinum league in 2v2, I don't mind playing a few games. It's usually pretty easy to score platinum league in 10-20 match.

[Sylvrdragon]

Ok.


I lied to one of my students today and told them I was plat and now they want to vs me. I suck at sc2. Any advice?

Do you already know what you need to improve on specifically, or are you stuck and don't know what the next step is?

For me, I suck at SC2, but I know what my weaknesses are and how to fix them; it's just a matter of actually practicing. Also, what race? I might be able to direct you to a solid build order that you can just memorize and usually win with against anyone under diamond.

[Not Kuno]

My SC2 game in general is pathetic, I played on a few vs matches but they weren't ranked or whatever so I'm at the lowest.

I might be down for some after events tonight if I'm not too sick. Plus I told them I played Zerg so I wouldn't be able to cheese em with anything else. I like Zerg best anyway (even if they tough as shit to play atm). I do watch a lot of replays and stuff so I have an idea of what to do but that doesn't mean a lot. XD

[Sylvrdragon]

My SC2 game in general is pathetic, I played on a few vs matches but they weren't ranked or whatever so I'm at the lowest.

I might be down for some after events tonight if I'm not too sick. Plus I told them I played Zerg so I wouldn't be able to cheese em with anything else. I like Zerg best anyway (even if they tough as shit to play atm). I do watch a lot of replays and stuff so I have an idea of what to do but that doesn't mean a lot. XD

This will give you most of what you need to know about actually playing Zerg. Find a Build Order here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Strategy, then apply what you learned from the video and practice.

A very very important key to pulling off what Day9 teaches in that video is early detection! Always keep SOMETHING between you and your opponent (closer to them than to you) so that you can see anything that comes your way.