I have returned: StarCraft II

[Falaras]

Let's just make it so Banshees require a fusion core next patch and seal the deal.

[Bweigelt]

Let's just make it so Banshees require a fusion core next patch and seal the deal.

While I know your joking I think making cloak require a fusion core wouldn't be a bad change. Basically it would make Banshee's a little more manageable without actually directly nerfing the unit. Cloak coming so early for a flying unit that can put out that much damage is really ridiculous.

[Falaras]

While I know your joking I think making cloak require a fusion core wouldn't be a bad change. Basically it would make Banshee's a little more manageable without actually directly nerfing the unit. Cloak coming so early for a flying unit that can put out that much damage is really ridiculous.

What is really ridiculous is nerfing every harassment unit when you need to harass to stay ahead.

[Bweigelt]

What is really ridiculous is nerfing every harassment unit when you need to harass to stay ahead.

You don't actually have to be that effective with your harass. You just need to stop Zerg from making drones. Four hellion at his front will do that whether you do any damage with them or not. And at pretty much every level not pro you can still do a ton of damage with Hellions even with the Roach change. Terran had way to many tools before and they should have just removed Reapers from the game but whatever it can be the new scout. They really didn't do anything that hurts TvZ they just made it so Zerg has some options and can actually 14 hatch without getting owned.

[Syntex]

The change to make barracks require a depot was needed IMO.

Terran are the FASTEST tech'ers when it comes to it because they have such little restrictions.

How long does it take for each race to get to t2?

Zerg: Pool>Lair>T2 building
Protoss: Pylon>Gateway>Core>Robotics
Terran: Barracks>Tech Lab> Factory

But the thing is that the tech lab can be built WHILE the factory is being made and just swapped from the barracks. If only protoss could build a gateway before the pylon or while its building but they can't.

So in essence terran can go Barracks>Factory where everyone else has to make at least 3 structures/upgrade while they are on 2.

Also terran have no location restrictions so proxy is deadly when they do it.

Zerg need creep so they have travel time to opponent.
Protoss have pylon first so that adds delay.
Terran no have depot to add delay and it balances it.

Its a welcome balance change that was needed.

[Falaras]

The change to make barracks require a depot was needed IMO.

Terran are the FASTEST tech'ers when it comes to it because they have such little restrictions.

How long does it take for each race to get to t2?

Zerg: Pool>Lair>T2 building
Protoss: Pylon>Gateway>Core>Robotics
Terran: Barracks>Tech Lab> Factory

But the thing is that the tech lab can be built WHILE the factory is being made and just swapped from the barracks. If only protoss could build a gateway before the pylon or while its building but they can't.

So in essence terran can go Barracks>Factory where everyone else has to make at least 3 structures/upgrade while they are on 2.

Also terran have no location restrictions so proxy is deadly when they do it.

Zerg need creep so they have travel time to opponent.
Protoss have pylon first so that adds delay.
Terran no have depot to add delay and it balances it.

Its a welcome balance change that was needed.

Barracks Depot was retarded and tons of pro-level gamers have already stated they hated it. The cheese balance is built into the game, proxy raxing is just as strong as proxy gating and 6 pooling. In fact I would say proxy-gating is much stronger due to just how powerful zealots are compared to Marines/Zerglings and the chrono boost ability.

You say that terran tech is too fast compared to Zerg/Protoss but you realize that terran tech doesn't even do close to what it does for Z/P. Because teching is so easy, you just build up large amounts of x unit instead of getting stronger, game changing units like the Ultra and the HT. Its a key difference in races that makes the game not so boring, and balances it.

You don't actually have to be that effective with your harass. You just need to stop Zerg from making drones. Four hellion at his front will do that whether you do any damage with them or not. And at pretty much every level not pro you can still do a ton of damage with Hellions even with the Roach change. Terran had way to many tools before and they should have just removed Reapers from the game but whatever it can be the new scout. They really didn't do anything that hurts TvZ they just made it so Zerg has some options and can actually 14 hatch without getting owned.

I would say that isn't true anymore, while it was true before. Just the threat of hellions/reapers forced Speedlings and a Roach Warren which set them back on drones and resources and kept their ridiculous end game in check. Now roach warren is probably going to be standard considering just how powerful they are with 4 range which means there is no forced buildings nor threat because you are already getting the warren and the roaches. You could even skip speed now probably, which you used to force because Reapers used to be good. Zerg could early expand before without getting owned, they do it in almost every single game. Now it just means that there is no reason to NOT early expand because there is no fear of harassment until the Banshees come out. You can also think of it this way: Before you could justify getting blue flame hellions for harass because you could mix them in a mech army, now you really can't because they won't be able to hurt the roaches nor the mutas. Just another hit that terran indirectly took.

[Bweigelt]

Barracks Depot was retarded and tons of pro-level gamers have already stated they hated it. The cheese balance is built into the game, proxy raxing is just as strong as proxy gating and 6 pooling. In fact I would say proxy-gating is much stronger due to just how powerful zealots are compared to Marines/Zerglings and the chrono boost ability.

You say that terran tech is too fast compared to Zerg/Protoss but you realize that terran tech doesn't even do close to what it does for Z/P. Because teching is so easy, you just build up large amounts of x unit instead of getting stronger, game changing units like the Ultra and the HT. Its a key difference in races that makes the game not so boring, and balances it.


I would say that isn't true anymore, while it was true before. Just the threat of hellions/reapers forced Speedlings and a Roach Warren which set them back on drones and resources and kept their ridiculous end game in check. Now roach warren is probably going to be standard considering just how powerful they are with 4 range which means there is no forced buildings nor threat because you are already getting the warren and the roaches. You could even skip speed now probably, which you used to force because Reapers used to be good. Zerg could early expand before without getting owned, they do it in almost every single game. Now it just means that there is no reason to NOT early expand because there is no fear of harassment until the Banshees come out. You can also think of it this way: Before you could justify getting blue flame hellions for harass because you could mix them in a mech army, now you really can't because they won't be able to hurt the roaches nor the mutas. Just another hit that terran indirectly took.

Just because the Roach Warren is standard doesn't mean it doesn't put him behind if is forced to make roaches earlier than he wants to. Early MM pushes are still going to be a threat as well. What this change has really done is give Zerg a way to come out ahead if they defend properly without over reacting. Zergs are still going to be punished for making too many roaches too soon or for making too many zerglins and not enough drones. Likewise they will still be punished if they get greedy. The difference is now there is a middle ground where before it was really one or the other because Roaches were so useless until they had other units supporting them. Honestly though, even if this is a bigger hit to T than anyone thinks, is that such a bad thing? Zerg needs something to draw more people to it. There really aren't enough Zerg players right now and until there are it's going to be really hard to balance things perfectly. I think this patch has gone a long way to helping the ZvT match up but there are quite a few Terrans who think otherwise (mind you some of them sound a lot like the Zerg whiners that bitched and bitched about T before without actually trying to come up with new strategies or working on getting better) so we'll see.

[Falaras]

Just because the Roach Warren is standard doesn't mean it doesn't put him behind if is forced to make roaches earlier than he wants to. Early MM pushes are still going to be a threat as well. What this change has really done is give Zerg a way to come out ahead if they defend properly without over reacting. Zergs are still going to be punished for making too many roaches too soon or for making too many zerglings and not enough drones. Likewise they will still be punished if they get greedy. The difference is now there is a middle ground where before it was really one or the other because Roaches were so useless until they had other units supporting them. Honestly though, even if this is a bigger hit to T than anyone thinks, is that such a bad thing? Zerg needs something to draw more people to it. There really aren't enough Zerg players right now and until there are it's going to be really hard to balance things perfectly. I think this patch has gone a long way to helping the ZvT match up but there are quite a few Terrans who think otherwise (mind you some of them sound a lot like the Zerg whiners that bitched and bitched about T before without actually trying to come up with new strategies or working on getting better) so we'll see.

Its true they will still be behind econ wise than a Zerg that straight up didn't make a warren, but its definitely not a huge punishment like it used to be. Throwing down a warren was pretty much worthless other than defending, so forcing a warren was a huge lead. Now the warren being standard means throwing one down may hurt their economy versus not throwing one down, but they would have to get one eventually anyways.

I would have to say the big problem I see is exactly what I was hoping the roach buff would change, unit compositions. Before 1.1.2 it was all Muta Ling Bling, and the terran could use multiple strats like Thor Hellion or MMM or such. Now Roaches are going to be a common unit to use in ZvT which means Thor Hellion is off the table completely and you have to go MMM. The problem is now Terran is going MMM for two match ups and that really makes the game boring.

You mentioned the zerg whiners before the patch, heres the thing: Their whining got them exactly what they wanted. That is the thing that annoys me the most out of this patch. Blizzard is encouraging people to just cry about balance instead of figuring out strategies themselves. If you ever played WoW the same thing happened quite a few times where the community over exagerated something (3.0 Ret) and it ended up fucking everything up because Blizzard listens...too much. Seems odd to say considering this is an FFXI forum and the big problem with SE was not listening but there is a fine line I guess.

[Misuicide]

You cry alot falaras

[Kaylia]

You mentioned the zerg whiners before the patch, heres the thing: Their whining got them exactly what they wanted. That is the thing that annoys me the most out of this patch. Blizzard is encouraging people to just cry about balance instead of figuring out strategies themselves. If you ever played WoW the same thing happened quite a few times where the community over exagerated something (3.0 Ret) and it ended up fucking everything up because Blizzard listens...too much. Seems odd to say considering this is an FFXI forum and the big problem with SE was not listening but there is a fine line I guess.

I seriously doubt they balance Starcraft like they balance WoW. They arent trying to make everyone happy here, they are trying to have a 50% win rate for every match up. Sure, they could wait 2 years and see if people find new strategy, but what's the point? Beside, new strategy only exists at the professional level. They need to balance the game for the average players who has less than 100apm

Beside, it's not like this update change the balance greatly. Roach are slightly better (was needed against protoss), and reaper were nerfed (they are still pretty decent if you mix them with a group of marauders ). If anything, it's just going to make zerg more popular.

[Falaras]

I seriously doubt they balance Starcraft like they balance WoW. They arent trying to make everyone happy here, they are trying to have a 50% win rate for every match up. Sure, they could wait 2 years and see if people find new strategy, but what's the point? Beside, new strategy only exists at the professional level. They need to balance the game for the average players who has less than 100apm

Beside, it's not like this update change the balance greatly. Roach are slightly better (was needed against protoss), and reaper were nerfed (they are still pretty decent if you mix them with a group of marauders ). If anything, it's just going to make zerg more popular.

Well almost every match up has a 50% win rate as is, win rates are pretty deceiving though seeing as you will be matched up with people of equal skill anyways. I wouldn't say new strategies take 2 years, the games been out what 3 months now and we have seen strategies change quite a bit. Reapers are really anything from decent at this point, their only real purpose is to scout now which really isn't necessary nor efficient. The problem with Roach range is that blizzard has now weakened two of terrans three harassment units (Four if you count medivacs) and the race is just so dependent on harass.

[Kaylia]

Well almost every match up has a 50% win rate as is, win rates are pretty deceiving though seeing as you will be matched up with people of equal skill anyways. I wouldn't say new strategies take 2 years, the games been out what 3 months now and we have seen strategies change quite a bit. Reapers are really anything from decent at this point, their only real purpose is to scout now which really isn't necessary nor efficient. The problem with Roach range is that blizzard has now weakened two of terrans three harassment units (Four if you count medivacs) and the race is just so dependent on harass.

You could look at the win rate of random players if you want a better estimation. There is plenty of methods to figure out if the game is balanced or not if you have access to Blizzard's data.

Earlier, you were saying players should figure out new strategies instead of crying for a change. How is it different now? If a strategy was nerfed, it's up to you to find a new one to win your games. If the update was forcing player to play a single style, I would be against it, but it's way too early to say that.

Also I spent the whole day building reapers to figure out how bad the nerf was. 2 rax --> factory -->2 rax is seriously not that bad. It allow me to get reaper relatively fast, and mix them with a bunch of units (marauder if there is stalker/roach, hellion if its bio). I also tried a quick reaper --> banshee transition (worked well since he went mass roach after seeing the reaper). It's not the kind of combo i would normally use, but I was quite pleased with the mix I experimented with today

[Kurp]

I'm going to have some time to really play a lot starting this weekend and I want to start playing 1v1, I haven't played any games other than with friends. I'm having trouble deciding on a race though, similar to how I have a hard time settling on a fighting game character. I like them all for varying reasons, but I really want to choose one to focus on and not end up playing random. <_<

If anyone wants to play some games this weekend, I'm down. I'm a lower-level player though, but I'm willing to play any kind of match. My ID is Raygun.953.

[Tahona]

So what's up with the matchmaking system?? I've been playing in some bronze/silver 2v2, 3v3s with some friends and we've been constantly put up against plat or diamond teams and getting owned

[Misuicide]

I don't think the team ladder has ever worked properly, lol.

[Bweigelt]

Its true they will still be behind econ wise than a Zerg that straight up didn't make a warren, but its definitely not a huge punishment like it used to be. Throwing down a warren was pretty much worthless other than defending, so forcing a warren was a huge lead. Now the warren being standard means throwing one down may hurt their economy versus not throwing one down, but they would have to get one eventually anyways.

I would have to say the big problem I see is exactly what I was hoping the roach buff would change, unit compositions. Before 1.1.2 it was all Muta Ling Bling, and the terran could use multiple strats like Thor Hellion or MMM or such. Now Roaches are going to be a common unit to use in ZvT which means Thor Hellion is off the table completely and you have to go MMM. The problem is now Terran is going MMM for two match ups and that really makes the game boring.

You mentioned the zerg whiners before the patch, heres the thing: Their whining got them exactly what they wanted. That is the thing that annoys me the most out of this patch. Blizzard is encouraging people to just cry about balance instead of figuring out strategies themselves. If you ever played WoW the same thing happened quite a few times where the community over exagerated something (3.0 Ret) and it ended up fucking everything up because Blizzard listens...too much. Seems odd to say considering this is an FFXI forum and the big problem with SE was not listening but there is a fine line I guess.

You aren't going to be forced to go MMM in TvZ now. Thor Marine Banshee works great as do other types of Mech. You also don't have to go MMM in TvP either. Thors were viable before the patch and are even better now. I've been running a Thor Marine Banshee combo in TvP for a few weeks now and my only loss was a disconnect where I was two seconds away from victory. MMM just seems like the only viable strategy because people want easy wins and don't want to test anything new out to find the new strategies.

[Ferien]

I would have to say the big problem I see is exactly what I was hoping the roach buff would change, unit compositions. Before 1.1.2 it was all Muta Ling Bling, and the terran could use multiple strats like Thor Hellion or MMM or such. Now Roaches are going to be a common unit to use in ZvT which means Thor Hellion is off the table completely and you have to go MMM. The problem is now Terran is going MMM for two match ups and that really makes the game boring.

I'll be honest, if your opponents kept trying to go Muta/Ling/Bane after seeing you Thor/Hellion, they deserved to lose. Roaches were the obvious counter to Thor/Hellion/Marine before this patch, the only thing that maybe changes is that the idiots who never changed their strategy before the patch will suddenly be using the flavor of the month. The buff was nice, but it's certainly no game-changer.

[Falaras]

You aren't going to be forced to go MMM in TvZ now. Thor Marine Banshee works great as do other types of Mech. You also don't have to go MMM in TvP either. Thors were viable before the patch and are even better now. I've been running a Thor Marine Banshee combo in TvP for a few weeks now and my only loss was a disconnect where I was two seconds away from victory. MMM just seems like the only viable strategy because people want easy wins and don't want to test anything new out to find the new strategies.

Thor Marine Banshee would be pretty weak to Roach Muta still. I realize the viability of Thors in TvP as I used to use them but honestly MMM+G or MMM+V makes any other strategy look silly in TvP. As you can tell by me complaining about having to MMM in multiple match ups this is not about me wanting easy wins. At least MMM is interesting versus Protoss with how strong proper storming is, its just a snoozefest versus zerg once you spread your units.

Earlier, you were saying players should figure out new strategies instead of crying for a change. How is it different now? If a strategy was nerfed, it's up to you to find a new one to win your games. If the update was forcing player to play a single style, I would be against it, but it's way too early to say that.

And I am working on my TvZ strategies but I'm also frustrated that crying for a change got zerg exactly what they wanted. We can wait to see if the update forces single styles but I am pretty convinced it will.

[Not Kuno]

How do I counter mass thors as Zerg? I tried Ultras and they got rocked, a ton of hydras maybe? Or just micro some mind control?

[Misuicide]

Roach and Ultra/Ling beat Thors. Surround and pound. Hydras get slaughtered by thors, 3-3 Thors 1 shot Hydras