I have returned: StarCraft II

[Shuvo]

Zealot rushing is freaking overpowered. Against terren on blistering sands map i have yet to acutally lose if I decide to use it lol. 'Cause if their entrance way is blocked I just attack the big rock until I can get in.

I feel the same. Everyone and their mother got a starcraft key, but I'm still waiting for mine.

If you really wanna play, just buy on ebay, play for a week or 2 and then resell it later to get your money back. Thats what my plan is, although given how much fun I'm having I'lll probably keep extending that "week or 2" until the beta is over. D: Just make sure the seller has a decent history so you dont' get scammed.

But, I got 3 games on the b.net account, wc3/ft and WoW w/ all expansions so.. I guess it was worth it, even if I don't resell.

[Lee]

Just got a key, might be willing to sell this though.

[Kaylia]

If you really wanna play, just buy on ebay, play for a week or 2 and then resell it later to get your money back. Thats what my plan is, although given how much fun I'm having I'lll probably keep extending that "week or 2" until the beta is over. D: Just make sure the seller has a decent history so you dont' get scammed.

I don't know why you would buy a key at this point. It's probably just a matter of day before everyone get in. I wouldnt pay more than 5$ to get starcraft before everyone. Actually, I personally wouldn't pay anything because I'm a cheap mofo, but I don't think it's worth much more than that.


And wtf at broodlord. Guardian werent overpowered enough? I guess they have shit for air defense, but still. they are pretty fun to watch thought.


About infested human, isnt their duration a bit short? I guess it's not so bad if you have a few roaches with maxed energy, and need more body asap, but with the 5 seconds summoning time, and the 20sec max duration, it's hard to use them well.

[SilverBreeze]

I wouldn't really be that concerned about getting in now that I'd spend money on it, the matchmaking isn't that great atm because of the small number of players, so sometimes you get paired against people who play like Jaedong, and some people who have never played a RTS before, or you can play against the AI, which is LoL.

I'm sure more invites will be going out soon, just be patient (and watch lots of Livestreams so you know what to do when you do get in!)

[Minions]

I wouldn't really be that concerned about getting in now that I'd spend money on it, the matchmaking isn't that great atm because of the small number of players, so sometimes you get paired against people who play like Jaedong, and some people who have never played a RTS before, or you can play against the AI, which is LoL.

I'm sure more invites will be going out soon, just be patient (and watch lots of Livestreams so you know what to do when you do get in!)

We have the cracked client for that, which is the main reason I really want to kick someone Elset ass other than the cpu (however at least the cpu is getting better over time, glad they are progressing into having multi strats that each cpu can choose from randomly)

[willriker]

So, the beta has been out for little bit while now. What are your guys impressions of it. I was really into the first game, i played it for years. The only thing that ripped me off it, during relaxing times, was FFXI. From the advetrizements, it seems like Blizzard decided to keep the game similar to the original. I am hoping they didnt screw it all up with Heros like in WC3. Does it do the first game justice?

I am sure many of us played the original game. We all had our favorite aspects of the original. While i respect that this is a diferant game, it does share the same title. There are always things added, removed when this happens. What do you think was a good thing that was added/removed?

Conversely, what do you think was a poor choice to have added/removed from the game?

The game is still early, but it is not far from its release date. How do you think that balance is turning out? Is there anything blatantly overpowered/underpowered?

I am sorry for all the questions, I cannot play the beta myself. My PC just wont cut the mustard, so i didnt even bother applying for the beta. That will change soon though, and i would like to hear your guys opinion on how the game is coming along so far. I have actually gone out and bought games based on what i have read on this board before, and i must say that i agreed with every critique given on them. So, i am naturaly interested in what you guys think about this game.

[Shuvo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyEn5...feature=autofb
The little probe that could


Knowing blizzard the game will be in beta for probably a few more months at least, so I don't see it as a bad deal, especially when you can resell it back later and get most/all/more of your money back.

We have the cracked client for that, which is the main reason I really want to kick someone Elset ass other than the cpu (however at least the cpu is getting better over time, glad they are progressing into having multi strats that each cpu can choose from randomly)

B.net emulator won't be done anytime soon, as the developers have hit a pretty large wall. Apparently the packet behavior seems to change almost randomly, so it seems that Blizzard went to same great effort to make Battle.net2.0 very difficult to reverse engineer.

[Minions]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyEn5...feature=autofb
The little probe that could


Knowing blizzard the game will be in beta for probably a few more months at least, so I don't see it as a bad deal, especially when you can resell it back later and get most/all/more of your money back.




B.net emulator won't be done anytime soon, as the developers have hit a pretty large wall. Apparently the packet behavior seems to change almost randomly, so it seems that Blizzard went to same great effort to make Battle.net2.0 very difficult to reverse engineer.

Was more speaking more along the lines of finding a way to implement a lan of sorts, or strait IP connection like in SC1.

[Valin]

Need two names name and identifier

For example mine is magus.magus

I finally got around to doing 1v1 ranked today. I won 8/10 of my preliminaries just rushing with roaches (Nydus on their mins). They are so broken. I ended up being ranked 4th in the Gold 17th Division. I then proceeded to play a match, rushed with roaches but the protoss player had barely gotten a colossus and it ate through my roaches. Sad story. I guess now I need to start teching past roaches, I'm thinking straight to mutas but I really feel like after Roach rush zerg becomes a fuck ton weaker, hard to keep up with other races tech with just roaches. Other zerg players, that's fine, I always win with my roaches, but Protoss and Terran played well shut me down if my initial roach rush fails.

Tips?

There's alot you can do with Zerg vs Protoss. Watch Battle Report#3 where the Zerg player makes very good use of Neural Parasite vs Colossus making the Protoss destroy his own forces, and then where he burrows banelings under his attack force.

Roaches are a very solid unit at the moment but it's not like they're overpowered. Marauders with stim for Terran and Immortals for Protoss absolutely destroy roaches, but cannot attack air, so mutalisks would be good then. If you opponent is good with scouting you could use your overlord's spawn creep ability and hide your spire somewhere out of sight so he would never see the mutas coming, lol.

If you're up for it we could play some casual 1v1 matches. I'm trying to find some people around my skill level to play with. My RL friends are all like top 25 in the platinum league and a lot better than me and it's discouraging just getting my ass handed to me again and again, haha.

[GRT]

haha, while those battle reports were great for showcasing the maps and unit matchups, the pace is a bit too slow realistically, so you either need to have insane scouting skills or luck to have infesters available for colossi

david kim uses a much less mixed army on live bnet

hydras are better anyway

[Kaylia]

One question about SC2 cracked beta. Anyone had issue with it on the net? My pc crashed twice in 2 days, and it was bad enough that I needed system restore. It could be something else, SC2 is pretty much the only thing I've done.

So, the beta has been out for little bit while now. What are your guys impressions of it. I was really into the first game, i played it for years. The only thing that ripped me off it, during relaxing times, was FFXI. From the advetrizements, it seems like Blizzard decided to keep the game similar to the original. I am hoping they didnt screw it all up with Heros like in WC3. Does it do the first game justice?

I am sure many of us played the original game. We all had our favorite aspects of the original. While i respect that this is a diferant game, it does share the same title. There are always things added, removed when this happens. What do you think was a good thing that was added/removed?

Conversely, what do you think was a poor choice to have added/removed from the game?

The game is still early, but it is not far from its release date. How do you think that balance is turning out? Is there anything blatantly overpowered/underpowered?.

I only played against computer, but so far, it's pretty fun. It's a bit confusing at first (how to tech and what to use), but once you get used, the game run as smoothly as SC1. At this point, most issue I have are probably the result of misplaced nostalgia.


Thing I don't like
- You need more harvester than in SC1, it's slightly annoying
- Endgame. It's most likely because I don't get it completely, but the last few units seem a bit overpowered and unbalanced. I couldn't stop the computer's 20 carrier yesterday, something that could have been done easily in SC1 with very few units.
- Queen's larva, Chrono Boost, satellite station....microing building suck. Satellite isnt so bad, but chrono boost should get an autocast or something...it's annoying. Same thing with queen larva. You rarely wan't so save the energy, so it's just an hassle to use it everytime.
- Psionic storm and nuke nerf


Thing I like
- Roach and Reaper. Both unit are pretty fun to use
- Nydus worm (imagine nydus canel that is built faster, with multiples exit, and anywhere on the map)
- Zerg's tumor (invisible building that spread creep everywhere on the map and allow you to see the area with creep).
- Terran's scan tower (huge sight radius that let you see enemy movement)
- Thing that let you block the path (disruptor's ability, supply depot that go under the ground to let your own unit pass.



Essentially, it's the same as before. You still have the same kind of rock/paper/scisor thing going on between unit, and you need to control the ressource to win. If there is balance issue with the game, they are minor, and they will get nerfed/modified eventually,

[GRT]

on bnet only terran seems a bit underpowered in endgame, either that or nobody has figured out a good combo yet

altho fully upgraded marines stimmed with medivacs and good placement of siege tanks is still ridiculously strong... unless you get surprise buttsex'ed by HT storms

[Kaylia]

Against computer with terran, I used the Al Qaida technique if I was getting overwhelmed(drop a nuke on your front line and take out everyone). It works against computer, but player will be smart enough probably.


I didn't try mass marine yet, but every ground units get oblitered when I reach that point usually. I figured it would be the same with marine.

[Meian]

MMM + Tank is pretty fantastic outside of Storm and Hydra. As of now I can only see the other units for harassing more than actually attacking or damaging but that is just me, any input on them would be great too

[Kaylia]

MMM + Tank is pretty fantastic outside of Storm and Hydra. As of now I can only see the other units for harassing more than actually attacking or damaging but that is just me, any input on them would be great too

Well, the Hellion are definitively great if you're fighting against smaller melee unit like zealot. I don't see it as a mass unit, but bring a few if you know you will fight zealot/ling for rape.

The big mech (forgot their name) always got destroyed really fast, but if you can micro their ability on the ennemy's big unit, it could be useful.

Rest is mostly harassing I guess

[GRT]

Well, the Hellion are definitively great if you're fighting against smaller melee unit like zealot. I don't see it as a mass unit, but bring a few if you know you will fight zealot/ling for rape.

The big mech (forgot their name) always got destroyed really fast, but if you can micro their ability on the ennemy's big unit, it could be useful.

Rest is mostly harassing I guess

You haven't played Terrain if you haven't tried Medivac/Thor drop on workers.

[Kaylia]

You haven't played Terrain if you haven't tried Medivac/Thor drop on workers.

The only time I tried dropping a big unit, my medivac got blasted before reaching its point. I will try using thor more next game, but gdi, they always die so freaking fast, and they cost a lot.

And while we talk about big thing in worker, collosus is doing a rampage against computer. If the map has a lot of cliff and no one teched air, you can probably do a shit lot of worker damages with these.

[geno]

Thing I don't like
- You need more harvester than in SC1, it's slightly annoying
- Endgame. It's most likely because I don't get it completely, but the last few units seem a bit overpowered and unbalanced. I couldn't stop the computer's 20 carrier yesterday, something that could have been done easily in SC1 with very few units.
- Queen's larva, Chrono Boost, satellite station....microing building suck. Satellite isnt so bad, but chrono boost should get an autocast or something...it's annoying. Same thing with queen larva. You rarely wan't so save the energy, so it's just an hassle to use it everytime.

Some quick responses:
- You need less harvester than in SC1, and thats not actually arguable, lol. Worker pathing is SIGNIFICANTLY improved, so that 16 drones will mostly saturate any 8 mineral base and 24 will give you complete 100% saturation (any drone over 24 will essentially mine 0minerals per second and is better off long distance mining). In SC1, you could definitely get away with fewer as zerg, but thats more a result of gameplay and balance than collection rates (zergs always found it beneficial to have a lower drone count and more expos because of the need for production buildings. With the Queen, that is no longer the case in SC2).

-I kind of agree with you here. I feel like once you hit endgame units, you absolutely need to go air to deal with opponents armies. Ground units have a VERY hard time with air units (particularly PvAnything) for a number of reasons, the most obvious of which is mobility. PvZ in particular is very difficult to deal with because your ONLY ground vs air options are stalkers and sentries, both of which have very low hp. Against lightbio units like Mutas, sentries are stronger, but stalkers are more mobile, and the combination of eachother's flaws makes neither viable. This allows zerg players to get away with an endless hit and run tactics with mutalisks, even while you threaten to counter-attack without putting themselves in any real danger. Don't even get me started on Broodlords, which are virtually invincible vs ground units because of the wall of broodlings they throw down with every attack.

With PvP I also noticed ground vs air problems as there is simply a lack of units that can deal with carriers for the same reasons as in PvZ: mobility and damage. Stalkers are significantly better against carriers than mutas, but they still are easily outranged by carriers allowing hit and run tactics that make them virtually invulnerable. With storm being weaker and archons having no splash/lower range, you pretty much need to go air (and even then, only void rays or carriers) to deal with them.

-Last point I just disagree with. There is a choice with each of those abilities, which means there is variability in how they are used & saved. I don't mind if they make tedious things easier when they are just hard for the sake of it, but thats not the case with the new macro abilities. The fact that they are hard to keep up with is a good thing, and it will be one of the things that separates the good players from the great players.

[Kaylia]

Some quick responses:
- You need less harvester than in SC1, and thats not actually arguable, lol. Worker pathing is SIGNIFICANTLY improved, so that 16 drones will mostly saturate any 8 mineral base and 24 will give you complete 100% saturation (any drone over 24 will essentially mine 0minerals per second and is better off long distance mining). In SC1, you could definitely get away with fewer as zerg, but thats more a result of gameplay and balance than collection rates (zergs always found it beneficial to have a lower drone count and more expos because of the need for production buildings. With the Queen, that is no longer the case in SC2).

Maybe I'm wrong, but when I play, it feels like I'm starving for mineral more than I was in the original Starcraft if I want to tech quickly or do w/e. The issue isn't just capping the mineral, it's capping your mineral for every expand you have, and since I feel the need to expand more, it's a bigger issue.

Also, there is the 2 vespene geyser per base that require additional attention. That's 3 more than before.

-Last point I just disagree with. There is a choice with each of those abilities, which means there is variability in how they are used & saved. I don't mind if they make tedious things easier when they are just hard for the sake of it, but thats not the case with the new macro abilities. The fact that they are hard to keep up with is a good thing, and it will be one of the things that separates the good players from the great players.

Well, the satellite wasn't a good example since it has good ability, and you can always burn your energy at any time, but the queen's eggs and chrono boost still annoy me. It's not hard to keep chrono boost on thing that matter, but it's not what I like to do. I would rather spend all my energy on beating my oponent than do trivial task to accelerate building time.

It's the same deal with Queen, after the first few tumors, you wont do anything but spawn larva everytime 40 seconds. Essentially, it's just a matter of having the queen nearby.


I'm not saying a good players won't make slightly better use of these skills , but I think there is plenty of contents to separate good players from great players that doesnt involve reusing the same ability on your own building every 30 seconds


[edit]

Random question: Is there any disadvantage to stargate that I'm missing? Their 30sec cooldown is faster than training time, and you can spawn your unit anywhere? I'm curious to know if there is a drawback, because turning it back into a gateway make little sense.

And sentry force field is so damn great, I think it's my favorite new ability,

[geno]

Chrono boost works on all buildings, so auto cast doesn't really make sense because you have varying needs for it (upgrades vs warp-in cooldown vs probe production etc). For zerg, you do pretty much want to use inject larvae at every opportunity for the most part at the moment, but I think a lot of that has to do with the under utilization of the heal spell and creep tumors so far, both of which are better than people are making them out to be imo (the exponential recreation of creep tumors I think is so cool, and I really want to see more use made of them). Still, there is some balance work to be done on that in my opinion to make those spells at least a LITTLE more attractive to use outside of sparing occasions.

You aren't wasting valuable energy on these mechanics because there is no real limit to the energy that can be spent in this game. This is essentially an APM argument; 30-50APM players (average SC2 player from my experience) will have a hard time keeping up AND having effective attacks and expansion timings. Thats okay, because chances are they will also be playing against other 30-50 APM players. If you don't want to focus on chrono boosting every time it up, then don't bother. You can probably beat them without it because its likely they can't keep up either (or if they can, they are sacrificing a lot of their attack potential to do so).

But the game is/or will be played at a completely different level 150+APM, where people will have absolutely no problem handling both tasks easily. At that level, the choices that people are making when they use the macro mechanics becomes really critical. Different strategies and more varied gameplay will result, which will give the game more lasting value in competitive scenes and more entertainment value from the spectator's view.

The last thing you said, 'using the same ability on your own building every 30 seconds'? That's pretty much what half of Starcraft is. Whether its building probes, upgrading, building units, or any of these macro abilities, these decisions can all be placed under a wide umbrella known as base management (or more simply, macro). Macro was one of the core elements of Starcraft 1, and honestly, most other RTS games. The balance Broodwar had (between micro and macro) was unique though and placed SIGNIFICANT emphasis on macro, far more than most other RTSs. It was part of what made the game what it was and what gave it the longevity it had (and still has). The collective result of each miniscule macro decision (to build another probe or stop now, build more units or expand, tech or build more gateways, speed up probe production or tech progress, etc) has a profound effect on each games overall pace and direction. So while its clearly important to control your army well and stave off impending death in the moment, the real art of the game comes from controlling what will happen in the future and macro mechanics like these allow you to do that.

That was a pretty big tangent, but I think its a really important aspect of Starcraft and I'm glad they acknowledged as much by trying to live up to it in SC2 rather than just make the game as micro oriented as possible. There are plenty of other RTS games for that already, none of which have fostered as diverse and exciting a competitive scene as Starcraft: BW did.



Anyways, your other question, the warp gate thing (I assume you meant warp gate when you said stargate). Yeah right now, there is no clear numbers/time drawback to the warp gate over a gateway, the cooldown is actually lower. However, there most certainly is a fairly large drawback that's not quite so obvious, particularly important amongst slower players. Warp gates require you to be looking at a spot where pylon power is and you have to physically select the location for each warping in unit. Gateways don't have that limitation; all of them can be hotkey'd to a single key and rallied to wherever you are attacking. This can mean the player can focus a lot more on microing his units in an attack and less time building reinforcements when they have gateways as opposed to warp gates.

To illustrate this difference, I'll use another example. Think of the difference between building three probes, one at 3 different bases. First, manually clicking all three locations on the map (or double pressing a hotkey, or however else you'd get there), and building a probe at each base. Compare that to hitting 3EEE (assuming all three Nexus are hotkey'd to 3). This makes a huge difference, and its the same thing with warp gates. Every second you can shave off managing your base is an extra second you can spend managing your attack. At super high levels, the difference may be negligible and there could be some room for balancing it to be a more attractive option (with the use of proxy pylons making warpgates so considerably better at reinforcing that its overwhelms the 'focus' advantage I mentioned), but overall, I think this can be a pretty important distinction between the two that gives each a unique place.