I have returned: StarCraft II

[Kaylia]

And what if I say that having to deal with someone who rushes Voidways obliterates my fun? The fun argument can always be turned around. They piss in my cheerios, so why shouldn't I make the game fun again for myself through retaliation?

That's retarded. Just stay away from random team games if you are going to be a faggot.

I don't know why anyone would play with a mindset of losing and not caring about victory. It's not just something that happens in Starcraft, it happens in any online game with random pickups. Random trolls, people who don't care about learning/improving, etc. And I don't feel that I shouldn't have to a complete team of people I know every time I play multiplayer in an online game in order to enjoy it.

You apparently.

Even if the odd of winning are lower with bad allies, winning is still very possible most of the time, especially since your opponent are rarely much better than your team in the first place.

If Valve wants DotA to be successful, especially by displacing HoN as the official DotA style game in the MLG, it needs to be permissive of user based anti-trolling measures. And I think the Starcraft II team multiplayer would be vastly improved by similar adjustments to matchmaking.

Do you not realized that you're the worst kind...a griefer/rage quitter...

[Gredival]

You can't really compare doing 2v2+ games in SC2 to playing DotA/HoN etc. There's only one method of competition in those games so you're always playing the most competitive mode. The most competitive mode in SC2 is 1v1; that's what people practice for and what they care about. When those players want to blow off steam and goof around, they queue up for 4+ player games.

...

Like I said, most people only take 1v1 seriously. You've decided the other modes are where you want to compete, that puts you in the minority. As much as you might like it, you're going to have to find other members of that minority and queue with them if you want to start winning consistently and stop team-killing randoms.

But this logic can be applied to DotA/HoN too. There are lots of casuals that treat it as just a game, regardless of whether or not the co-op mode is the competitive one, and play how they want because no one on the internet can tell them how to play. Considering that one could argue that the only way to play DotA and HoN and win consistently is to get your static group of five.

And yes that is the ideal, no doubt, but I think the whole point of having a system that facilitates non-premade groups is so that you can play anytime you want without scheduling a group of five to play. And it's a pity that these systems get hampered by the "just a game" crowd.

Plus I would say if you want to fuck around and do you own thing, then to do it in 1v1 where the impact of your fucking around is contained to yourself. Moreover, I notice that people I teamkill are almost always unranked in 1v1 at all in their careers or ranked disproportionately higher in 2v2+ than their 1v1 because they get carried. Their "success" using a stupid strategy but still winning reinforces the idea that their behavior is acceptable. I am actively refuting that by destroying their Nexus.

You can play 1v1 in DotA/HoN too. I agree that prestige is reverse between the two games when considering co-op and 1v1, but it's the same basic idea in co-op SCII. Certain skills are necessary to succeed in 1v1, but there's a different metagame for co-op and a good team is one that works together such that the group is more than the sum of its parts.

[Gredival]

You apparently.

Even if the odd of winning are lower with bad allies, winning is still very possible most of the time, especially since your opponent are rarely much better than your team in the first place.

And the odds of winning are even greater if we/I destroy the weakest link and take a safe expansion. I'm not saying I team-kill then just leave. I team-kill to force them into a "timeout" for their poor decisions, or it makes them leave and I can gain access to their pooled resources. In either case I take their base as an expansion.

At the bottom of my downfall over the weekend I was getting rated into games where everyone was Bronze except me because I had such a terrible losing streak. I think the only reason I wasn't demoted into Bronze was the fact I had already been demoted that day.

At this point I had one ally who made three macro hatches in his base... and had ONLY drones. Oversaturated at his minerals. Six drones to an extractor. He had at LEAST fifty drones on one base.

So I took him out and took his base (and the unused natural) and when he left I got all those resources he was hogging. I was able to outproduce the other team and win the game.

At the end of the game I finally got around to responding to his whispers about me being an asshole. I whispered him and asked what the fuck he was doing with that many drones. He said "I was just trying to get my economy up man."

Do you not realized that you're the worst kind...a griefer/rage quitter...

Actually I never rage quit. I rage, but I never quit. Ask Vandole. I have a policy on HoN of absolutely never ever ever conceding no matter if the score is 1 to 40.

Am I abrasive with criticizing my allies? Yes. Players should take criticism and improve with the goal of not only winning the game but improving their general level. That's how I learned to be better playing DotA with my friends. As a person, I emphatically believe in brutal honesty. Criticism is criticism and rehashing everything as "constructive" is a waste of time and useless coddling. I don't do it in real life with colleagues or friends, I'm certainly not going to take the time to have manners with randoms on the internet.

But I never feed to grief my team, destroy their items, etc. There is a point where I will stop helping anchors because I know that trying to help will only result in the BOTH of us dying vs. just them.

Also, DotA2 is going to have support for AIs to replace leavers or people vote-kicked. I think this is an implicit recognition of "Hey some people suck so bad the AI is better, so we're going to give you the option to get rid of your anchor."

That's retarded. Just stay away from random team games if you are going to be a faggot.

What justification do you have for this over my counter-assertion that they should be staying away if they aren't going to play seriously?

[Gredival]

Double post.

[Kuishen]

wall of shit

I was going to defend you, as I react the same way when people on my team cheese during monobattles... because I'm playing those to have fun and them cheesing and getting an early win is not fun. However every time I see you post I see your sig, which makes everything you ever say invalid. Any nigger who thinks the recent changes in FFXI are like WoW is fucking retarded.

But by all means, continue.

[geno]

You are just setting yourself up to be disappointed and mad. No matter what you say or think, people are going to casual the shit out of random team games, often with really shitty useless strategies.

You are one person, with the ability to control your rage (theoretically). If you approach random team games differently, or just stay away and stick with arranged team games, problem solved. They get to keep doing their shitty strategies with eachother and losing games having fun. You get to either competitive-mode it up with friends or at least play without rage, either of which should be an improvement.

It's a fucking dick move to kill off your teammate because their strategy wasn't good. If it really pisses you off so much that you can't even play alongside it, then the more adult thing to do would probably be to just leave the game and re-queue.

The only exception I'd make is if they are also fucking assholes. For example, you suggest something and they rage/BM non-stop, then I can at least understand it. The key word here is 'suggest' though, if you are an asshole from the start, then you're unlikely to convince them of anything anyways. If you suggest a build and they don't respond or say they want to play their own way in as many words, then it's just a dick move. Just leave and take the loss, or at least give them the chance to play it out. At a bronze-silver level, anything can work.

[Gredival]

Any nigger who thinks the recent changes in FFXI are like WoW is fucking retarded.

Everything is instanced now, massive reduction in the rich/poor wealth gap, the use of level cap raised to "totem pole reset" old gear. Granted are still very different on many levels but the essence of end game, the skinner box strategy, are surely the same now... or very similar. XI moved away from monopolizable exceedingly rare drops and new content consisting of sidegrades to a system where the content replaces each other.

[Dmitry]

You're a fucking idiot for how you react in the team games. There's no way that destroying your teammates base and taking it for your own could possibly be beneficial to the whole team. The only reason you're winning is because the people you're playing with suck a little less than you do.

[Kuishen]

Everything is instanced now, massive reduction in the rich/poor wealth gap, the use of level cap raised to "totem pole reset" old gear. Granted are still very different on many levels but the essence of end game, the skinner box strategy, are surely the same now... or very similar.

I fail to see how these are bad things. And the rich/poor wealth gap is pretty much the same... Everybody's biggest complaint a few years ago was that nothing was instanced, and now you're complaining that it is? wat? Not that anything is instanced at all really. If it was instanced I wouldn't have to rage at getting outclaimed at shit inside abyssea.

XI moved away from monopolizable exceedingly rare drops and new content consisting of sidegrades to a system where the content replaces each other.

The first thing in this sentence is just fucking bad game design so I fail to see how moving away from it is a bad thing. New content consisting of sidegrades is also not exactly fun. From Pre-Abyssea to Abyssea a lot wasn't replaced and even less was replaced after Abyssea.

But whatever, off topic so not going to continue.

EDIT: Forgot to put the main point of the post in. Changing major design flaws =/= making the game like WoW

[Sonomaa]

you arent going to change his mind guys, just click ignore and dont bother with him.

[Gredival]

You're a fucking idiot for how you react in the team games. There's no way that destroying your teammates base and taking it for your own could possibly be beneficial to the whole team. The only reason you're winning is because the people you're playing with suck a little less than you do.

So why is it I lose when I let the derps sit there and get their five precious Voids destroyed by 50+ Marines/Stalkers/Hydras and then I win when I take a third base (theirs) and actually get an army with good composition? Seems like there are far more beneficial results to the team killing, in addition to the sheer pleasure of just forcing the person into a timeout to think about what they've done (or they leave and getting resources split amongst teammates who are making units).

Yes theoretically it is better to have more players because it expands your food count by 200. But when someone is effectively not using that space allocation, I'd prefer the economy goes to people who will.

It is not beneficial to let someone sit on 1 base, 4 hatches, 50 drones and no tech besides a spawning pool (which isn't even being used for lings). It is not beneficial to let someone sit there on 1 rax, 1 factory, making ghosts and nukes.

No matter what you say or think, people are going to casual the shit out of random team games, often with really shitty useless strategies.

And why should I tolerate it when there is a more effective strategy. The only downfall is that if I win I give someone an undeserved win, but I spare myself the butt-fuckery of carrying that anchor.

They get to keep doing their shitty strategies with eachother and losing games having fun.

Or I can piss in their cheerios like they piss in mine?

You get to either competitive-mode it up with friend

"yes that is the ideal, no doubt, but I think the whole point of having a system that facilitates non-premade groups is so that you can play anytime you want without scheduling a group of five to play"

It's a fucking dick move to kill off your teammate because their strategy wasn't good.

And imo it's a dick move to force people to deal with you because you can't watch a few replays and learn how to execute 4gate or you just don't feel like playing seriously.

I'm not denying BM, I'm saying it's justified, and instead of going "Okay" I'm going to be proactive about alleviating the problem to whatever extent I can.

At a bronze-silver level, anything can work.

I started out in games with all high plat/diamonds. The problem is people don't stop doing it, it just stops working. It's annoying to deal with anchors and letting people think it's okay to do this stupid shit.

[Gredival]

I fail to see how these are bad things. And the rich/poor wealth gap is pretty much the same... Everybody's biggest complaint a few years ago was that nothing was instanced, and now you're complaining that it is? wat?

Not everyone. I have always advocated that the Kings system was the ideal system.

Not that anything is instanced at all really. If it was instanced I wouldn't have to rage at getting outclaimed at shit inside abyssea.

Open pops that are 15 minutes are hardly monopolizable in the fashion Kings were.

The first thing in this sentence is just fucking bad game design so I fail to see how moving away from it is a bad thing. New content consisting of sidegrades is also not exactly fun. From Pre-Abyssea to Abyssea a lot wasn't replaced and even less was replaced after Abyssea.

This is going to derail massively, but the signature isn't just for show. I've made multiple posts here, at FFXIAH, and at KI, about how the direction of the game since Salvage has been flawed, how Abyssea in particular represented a massive, and disastrous, break from the old vision for the game, and how Tanaka should be reinstated.

EDIT: Forgot to put the main point of the post in. Changing major design flaws =/= making the game like WoW

Again "XI moved away from monopolizable exceedingly rare drops and new content consisting of sidegrades to a system where the content replaces each other." That moved the metagame closer to WoW. You may disagree that it's a flaw or not, but the fact is that SE's new approach to XI aligns much more with Blizzard's than old SE's.

We went from "There is nothing wrong, this is working as intended" to "Oh you have a problem with that content? Here have a gameshark potion. You can't claim your monster? Here we'll make it a pop NM for you."

[Sonomaa]

stop talking about FFXI in the SC2 thread. if you want to continue your FFXI sucks liek wow discussion, take it to the FFXI section.

[Julian]

Holy wall of text.

I'm just going to agree with one thing, though. If your team is a bunch of idiots, you ARE going to lose, and that game is going to be a waste of 10-20 minutes. Guaranteed.

Unless you're in bronze or something.

(I had a 4v4 where I was terran sharing a base with a zerg, so first thing I did was give him control. I wall in since the other team had 2 zergs, and my teammate starts yelling at me to put down my wall. I tell him he has control. Fucking noob starts attacking my barracks. I'm like, wow, this guy is retarded, and this game is going to be a waste of time, might as well just leave now. Looking back, I wish I had killed the zerg's base before leaving. Oh well.) (And yes, I checked like 2 times while he was qqing that he did indeed have control. Friendly fire doesn't give off notifications, so I didn't notice the noob was killing my rax (why not the fucking depot? idiot was just trolling) until it was already on fire, lol.)

[Sonomaa]

and that is why I only play with vandole+BG people

[Julian]

BG people have hardly been online at all in the past few weeks.

gotta get my all 1000 team win portrait

[Gredival]

IdrA breaking out of the slump. Ace'd PuMa 3-0 and the rematch with Elfi 3-1 in the grand finals to take IEM.

[Salodin]

Any links to commentary on the games?

[Raen Ryong]

watching idra is kinda like the sonic cycle

looking good => people say "IdrA is coming back"! => he ragequits/early ggs/etc => you know the rest

[Rehn]

I actually watched those games last night, and felt at many points in the finals he should have GG'd because... well, because it would seem like him. Surprisingly he didn't, most notably, on the 2nd game.