I have returned: StarCraft II

[Rehn]

You can't always scout everything. Plus T+P can always proxy a key building in the middle of nowhere, which is something Z can't really do but that's another issue.

Had some asshole do this to me, but I was T. Ended up using my 4v4 sense and slapped a turret up by 8 min mark to hold off any dumb vr/dt rush, and bingo, he sent dt. Admittedly I was sloppy as hell because I'm usually Z in 1v1, but the end of the game was just pure gold for me.

I uploaded a replay and posted on TL about some suspicious stunts he pulled in the game, but I'm doubting myself on whether it was pure coincidence or he's pulling something funky off: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...entpage=12#223

[Salodin]

You can't always scout everything. Plus T+P can always proxy a key building in the middle of nowhere, which is something Z can't really do but that's another issue.

You scout to see what he is or isnt doing, see 2 barracks with two tech labs and you have no one to blame but yourself if you go roach. A proxy building is more of a strategy you can counter as zerg if you scout any ways, no barracks or gateway in his base? Dingdingdingding

[Lhyet]

Question to the Protoss players out there: What's your preferred build order for each matchup?
I've been working on a 2 gate robo into an expansion alot recently and it does me well enough, but I'd like to have a BO that works best for each matchup.

[Rehn]

You scout to see what he is or isnt doing, see 2 barracks with two tech labs and you have no one to blame but yourself if you go roach. A proxy building is more of a strategy you can counter as zerg if you scout any ways, no barracks or gateway in his base? Dingdingdingding

This is a pretty bad generalization to say for zerg. While OL can generally scout what a zergling can't, you can't exactly see everything in time before it happens. What terran doesn't wall off against a zerg anyways? So you can see 1 barracks with no addon at the front. What you can't see is perhaps a fast cc being made inside his base, or him making more barracks inside as well. We may see pros do it enough to say it's easy to do, but when it comes to it, it is not exactly easy to replicate as your average player.

I've seen some strange shit from my opponents that doesn't make sense even when I do sac an OL into their base, but things just catch you by surprise sometimes. Getting rushed by 4 rax 1 base terran has probably topped it for me, followed by 1 base 2 robo when I was in silver way back when.

[Salodin]

This is a pretty bad generalization to say for zerg. While OL can generally scout what a zergling can't, you can't exactly see everything in time before it happens. What terran doesn't wall off against a zerg anyways? So you can see 1 barracks with no addon at the front. What you can't see is perhaps a fast cc being made inside his base, or him making more barracks inside as well. We may see pros do it enough to say it's easy to do, but when it comes to it, it is not exactly easy to replicate as your average player.

I've seen some strange shit from my opponents that doesn't make sense even when I do sac an OL into their base, but things just catch you by surprise sometimes. Getting rushed by 4 rax 1 base terran has probably topped it for me, followed by 1 base 2 robo when I was in silver way back when.

Yeah but same can be said of zerg, so saying all of this in a convo about balance isnt really there if you know what i mean.

Also, about a t wall, park a zergling outside the ramp or far enough out of the way to see them moving out but cant get sniped from high ground; thats your scout and will give you enough time to at least defend from what would normally be gg from teching incorrectly; e.g. mass maurader early push and you went roach, at least you have time to get spines now while holding off the push and getting larve for mass lings. Etc etc.

[Salodin]

Hey gred, you up for some games?

[Gredival]

Question to the Protoss players out there: What's your preferred build order for each matchup?
I've been working on a 2 gate robo into an expansion alot recently and it does me well enough, but I'd like to have a BO that works best for each matchup.

Everything is relative.

PvP - I think 90% of the time comes down to 4gate vs. 4gate. It's just so powerful offensively that the best response is your own.

PvZ - Is the Zerg being really aggressive? Probably 3gate-robo on one base and all-in push it once I have enough Collosi. Is he being greedy? Forge fast expand and go for a fast Observer. Depending on what tech determines Collosi or HT tech. If he's going air it's possible to go for 2 Stargate, but I hate air so I avoid that build in 1v1.

PvT - I always get fucked up by a good Terran so I don't know what to tell you. All I can say is try take him out before the massive tank fest of doom.

[Salodin]

pvt i imagine is try and get an econ lead early, but keep scouting and don't lose to an early all-in or early aggresive rinemauder push. I haven't tried 1v1 yet with new patch, but I image going 2 or 3gate robo against terran is our strongest setup atm.

[Gredival]

I'm on now Salodin

[geno]

Roaches are fine, just need to scout moar. Half the balance in these units is scouting to make the right one at the right time.

Balance vs design. The game is decently balanced for the way zerg's AA is set up, but I don't think it's particularly intuitive.



Anyways, here are some of the units/buildings I'd like to see in the expansions off the top of my head:

• Zerg T1 anti-air. Doesn't need to be too strong, just a bit mobile. I like the hydra/roach switch idea and always have, I miss massable but MUCH weaker hydralisks. Don't really see Blizzard doing this though, so a new T1 AA would be okay as well. It should be unique in some way though to avoid it seeming like (or really being as good as) a marine.
  
  
• Air-to-air splash (like corsair/valk/devourer). Something to avoid viking or muta dominance (or phoenix? I guess, though I only see that in team games, lol). Thor kind of is able to pull this off for Terran, but I'd prefer they moved that role to AtA and kept Thor as a high damage single target GtA. The other races don't have really anything in that role outside of spell casters (and I really miss corsairs) so yeah. By the way scourge didn't splash in BW, but I did like them too, wouldn't mind seeing a resurgence.
  
  
• Zerg Seige ground unit - basically just saying I miss the lurker and the ability of zerg to hold positions the way lurkers enabled. I think this is pretty likely unit to come back, but even if it doesn't something that does this job would be much appreciated.
  
  
• Protoss early-mid game harass unit - I miss shuttle-reaver play, prism/colo doesn't really cut it and storm drops are just so late game that defending it is not at all difficult. Blink stalker and warp-prism'd zealots are probably the best options but they aren't the specialty units (you'll miss them from your army) and don't have splash (no exciting mineral line death).
  
  
• Protoss shield-battery or equivalent to give a bit of a defender's advantage. Mainly for PvP to counter the power of the warp-in mechanic to stop expo-based play. I think it would have a decent effect for the other matchups as well though. I hate seeing protoss lose a large portion of their army and then instantly lose the game, when the same is often not true for the other races (zerg with mass production to defend and Terran with bunkers/seige tanks/planetaries to help defend with fewer units).
  
  
• Terran spider mine style thing. Spider mines thrown into this game on like the hellion would be insanely hard to balance, so it may need to be weakened or changed considerably, but I really did like the way Terran could use them positionally for defense as well as for denying expos and to deal with invis units like DTs.

I could probably think of some more (notably some new building ideas) but these are the first things that came to mind.

As I noted earlier, remember balance vs design. Clearly a lot of these units/ideas would break the fuck out of WoL so they (and existing units) would probably need to be heavily rebalanced for any of it to work. These are just design ideas I really like that I think would create very interesting gameplay so I hope they can find ways to make them work.

[Lhyet]

Everything is relative.

PvP - I think 90% of the time comes down to 4gate vs. 4gate. It's just so powerful offensively that the best response is your own.

PvZ - Is the Zerg being really aggressive? Probably 3gate-robo on one base and all-in push it once I have enough Collosi. Is he being greedy? Forge fast expand and go for a fast Observer. Depending on what tech determines Collosi or HT tech. If he's going air it's possible to go for 2 Stargate, but I hate air so I avoid that build in 1v1.

PvT - I always get fucked up by a good Terran so I don't know what to tell you. All I can say is try take him out before the massive tank fest of doom.

Thanks for that. I know 4gate is one of those builds I need to read up on and work on but I've recently felt that in (Bronze league, so feel free to wipe your arse with this experiance) games where a toss opponant goes 4gate and I've scouted it and replied with 3gate robo, the Immortals have crushed the attack and then been powerful enough to counter it right away and get the win.
Not all the time, of course. Far too often do I not scout properly or just screw up my build and get my arse handed to me, but that's why I'm still Bronze.

[Rehn]

Just practice building probe/pylon while doing your thing. The immense income you get from building probe repeatedly makes a huge difference. Also, it might be a bit hard to watch a replay that you just lost, but watch them, and see how often you build probes and not supply block yourself. Strategy aside, your army could usually be bigger than what it currently is if you check your resources at the time of the battle. I'm willing to bet you can go up in leagues just by being healthy in econ in all your games and continuously building an army (and using them too of course).

[Salodin]

Yeah, you can get out of bronze easily by keeping your minerals low by spending it, not by not having enough probes.

[Gredival]

Thanks for that. I know 4gate is one of those builds I need to read up on and work on but I've recently felt that in (Bronze league, so feel free to wipe your arse with this experiance) games where a toss opponant goes 4gate and I've scouted it and replied with 3gate robo, the Immortals have crushed the attack and then been powerful enough to counter it right away and get the win.
Not all the time, of course. Far too often do I not scout properly or just screw up my build and get my arse handed to me, but that's why I'm still Bronze.

It depends on micro. Immortals are really good against armor but shitty against virtually everything else. So generally Immortals will help you win the day if he goes really Stalker heavy. But a good composition of Zealots will help. Also stellar Blink micro goes a long way for a 4gate, especially with the high base mobility of Stalkers compared to the poor mobility of Immortals.

You can watch replays of most of the pros who do Stalker pressure and they constantly use blink to redirect focus fire and keep their army going.

[Salodin]

Just saw Idra vs Puma, holy cow impressive. Now watching the finals, thankfully I haven't been spoiled thus far lol.

Wow, wth game 2 of finals; totally did not see it ending that way.

Spoiler: show

Was like "pheonix harass? really? That shit is so season 1..." and he just keeps bringing it in. Then he keeps warping and I'm like "you're in the fucking lead, expand!!!!" and he's like nope...just keep making zealots yup...". God damn put me in my place at the end...

Spoiler: show

Haha, the commentator said it best, Idra looked upset after winning the finals cause he was thinking "Man can't believe I lost that one game...".

[Deftscythe]

Wow, wth game 2 of finals; totally did not see it ending that way.

Spoiler: show

Was like "pheonix harass? really? That shit is so season 1..." and he just keeps bringing it in. Then he keeps warping and I'm like "you're in the fucking lead, expand!!!!" and he's like nope...just keep making zealots yup...". God damn put me in my place at the end...

Yeah, for me that was one of the rare times where I know exactly what's coming and the commentators have no idea(maybe because I mostly watch stuff casted by Tastosis and Day9). They kept talking about how the phoenix harass wouldn't matter to idra because he was already on 3 bases but I was like "No, you dongs, he's herding Idra's overlords to his base so he won't see the drop coming."

That build is actually something that was somewhat popular in TvZ a while back. When a terran going bio got up his reactor starport the first production round would be either 2x viking or viking + medivac and the viking would roam around the map picking off overlords so the zerg pulls them back and has no vision, then comes the marine drop.

[Jojothemidget]

Just watched Kiwikaki vs Stephano game 2 was incredible! I don't know if the IPL has vods but i'll post if i can find it.

[Blarg]

Just watched Kiwikaki vs Stephano game 2 was incredible! I don't know if the IPL has vods but i'll post if i can find it.

I think it was twitch.tv that had vods up of day 1 so they probably will for that game too. It was all uploaded in parts and not game by game so it may be difficult to find it. That game was pretty awesome though

[Jojothemidget]

IPL is still live streaming so the vods won't be up until tommorrow.

[geno]

IPL is still live streaming so the vods won't be up until tommorrow.

Not true!

http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/297001692

32:10~ish for game 2 of Kiwikaki vs Stephano. Watch it.