I have returned: StarCraft II

[Salodin]

I can't imagine a zergling morphing into a baneling, morphing into something else.

Either hydra morph or baneling + hydra have sex and merge into something else. Make that happen blizzard.

[Anakron]

Could always be an alternative morph, like they had Devourers and Guardians in SC1.

[geno]

I can't imagine a zergling morphing into a baneling, morphing into something else.

Either hydra morph or baneling + hydra have sex and merge into something else. Make that happen blizzard.

I think hydra morph is most likely judging from the similar face/body structure. Then if it is indeed some kind of baneling cannon, it would just load banelings (or other units for that matter) the same way an overlord does.

[Kaylia]

Baneling cannon.....that would be so awesome that any other unit is going to be an insta letdown.

[SubzeroDiabolos]

As a terran player, fuck your baneling cannon. As a starcraft 2 player, fuck your baneling cannon. You know it's an aspidochelone that will d.feet you.

[Kuishen]

As a terran player

Anything you said after that was invalid.

[Eanae]

Anything you said after that was invalid.

Last 3 major tournament winners were all one race. Spoilers: it wasn't terran.

[Salodin]

Eh, tournament winrars doesn't mean much. It's overall win ratio, which pre-patch was higher for one race. Spoilers: it's terran.

[Bweigelt]

Eh, tournament winrars doesn't mean much. It's overall win ratio, which pre-patch was higher for one race. Spoilers: it's terran.

I see this all the time, but really tournament results are all that matter as that's where the best of the best play. And really that's the only place balance matters. At other levels (and it could even be argued at top level tourney's as well) almost every game is determined by mistakes made by the players rather than the race they play. Tourney's are the only place where you can be sure everyone is bringing or at least trying to bring their best game.

[Thunder]

How can you expect to see results carry any amount of gravity when the sample size is.. 3?

You make some good points though. People try their best - but most games are still decided by mistakes made. Every single game can be analyzed down to the "one mistake that ended the game" be it what the loser did or didn't to. But I would go so far and say that nobody even knows what a perfect game is and furthermore, there are probably a dozen mistakes before and after the one mistake that somebody like artosis notices and rags on.

What I keep thinking about is how MVP, kind of the best player atm, was not at the tip-top of BW stars. Will there be better players to come? I can only assume yes, but will these players play on an entirely different level? Will there be players that will always showcase play that is flawless, and not just that one game in that one country during that one tournament? I'm looking forward to the guy who's the muhammad ali of boxing or the bruce lee of martial arts.

I think balance(at the very top level, because who honestly cares if they're winning 55% or 45% of games so long as you like the race you play?) is more about which race is less susceptible to a player's own mistakes at the moment. I'm of the opinion that that totem pole goes something like protoss > zerg >> terran

[Julian]

All of the good protoss got matched into a pvp against a protoss whose best match up is pvp. The one protoss that goes through to the last few rounds because there's no more pvp.

This obviously means that protoss is weak right now.

Obviously.

[Eanae]

Zerg is winning tournaments left and right. That obviously means zerg is weak. Obviously.

[Salodin]

I see this all the time, but really tournament results are all that matter as that's where the best of the best play. And really that's the only place balance matters. At other levels (and it could even be argued at top level tourney's as well) almost every game is determined by mistakes made by the players rather than the race they play. Tourney's are the only place where you can be sure everyone is bringing or at least trying to bring their best game.

Tournaments are all that matter because people are really trying there instead of on ladder? People are always trying on ladder, hundreds more then the couple dozen we see at tournaments all the time, and those people are pretty good as well. The sample size in a tournament is way too small to even try and make balance decisions based on them.

Let's all just forget that blizzard has already showed us how they use the win ratio between races in their reasoning for looking at specific match ups to examine for balancing, and it just so happens that terran is in a better position from the last time we saw the stats released.

[Bweigelt]

Tournaments are all that matter because people are really trying there instead of on ladder? People are always trying on ladder, hundreds more then the couple dozen we see at tournaments all the time, and those people are pretty good as well. The sample size in a tournament is way too small to even try and make balance decisions based on them.

Let's all just forget that blizzard has already showed us how they use the win ratio between races in their reasoning for looking at specific match ups to examine for balancing, and it just so happens that terran is in a better position from the last time we saw the stats released.

Ladder is a terrible place to base balance discussions on. Hell even lesser tournaments aren't a great place because there is such a random variance of skill levels. The best place to base them on would be results from the GSL and I don't just mean the finals, I mean all games from the tournament.

Just to prove my point here are some numbers

Spoiler: show

This is the graph from just the TLPD which doesn't even include ladder games but includes pretty much every tournament no matter how minor. Now you tell me if you think PvT right now is the most balanced of the three match ups with TvZ being the worst balanced.

Now here is the graph for the various match ups from just the GSL:

Spoiler: show

http://postimage.org/image/xgqyofno/

Now it shows that PvT is in pretty bad shape, especially over the last few months, while TvZ is the most balanced match up and PvZ and the most volatile. All of those things are more reasonable than what the other graph shows and I'd say is far more accurate with general perception of the various match ups.

Also before anyone starts complaining about balance to much lets take into account that this game is just over a year old and the match ups are still fluctuating like crazy. It's way to early to declare that one race is UP and one is OP lets take a look at the BW chart over the last three and half years

Spoiler: show

Not exactly that much different from what we see in SC2 is it. Wild variances in the matches, and long periods of dominance by 1 race. That's BW, widely considered the best balanced RTS ever, and it's graphs read similarly to SC2's.

Now overall I think SC2 is in a pretty good spot although PvT might need some tweaking (although the most recent patch hasn't been out very long and that might have brought it back towards the mean) but the other two match ups have are fine. Hell none of the match ups have been as bad as PvZ in BW has been historically and yet there was nowhere near the bitching that goes on regarding SC2.

[Salodin]

I'd agree that tournaments are a good place to judge balancing, but the problem with using that data instead of ladder is people get seeded into crumy spots in the tournament and get taken out early against what would be their weakness as a player and not their race, and don't get to show off their skills vs what they were practicing a lot for and preparing for. Plus, you get random shenanigans some times that affect it simply because the sample size is too low.

When people interview players, they ask "What is your weakest match"; I'm of the opinion that that is because they are less apt to play against a certain race because of strategy, not because the race is ahead or behind another. Tournaments do what they're supposed to do, show what players are good at a gathering, and that's about it; if I want to decide on balancing issues I'd take a look at the win/loss ratios of all the grandmaster leagues across many regions and see why there are discrepancies that don't make it 33%/33%/33%. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on it.

[Thunder]

The BW graphs posted agree with the theory that matchups will always fluctuate because, for example, the protoss standard develops into a state that has a significant advantage over zerg standard play. Therefore, zergs lose more often and the game looks in favor of protoss for a bit until zerg standard develops into a state that beats protoss standard. The BW graphs actually look really nice because over the years each race goes up and down relatively at even paces. So, and this is just nitpicking and semantics, when a player says their weakest matchup it COULD mean that their race is currently "behind" the other one - and in a few months or whatever they will have a new worst matchup. Also, how do you get 33%/33%/33%? it's 50/50 in 3 matchups, not 33/33/33 in 2

While a SC2 graph can't be any more than a year old, including that retarded phase of people like FD winning, terran all-ins, lolbeta strategies and shit.

I'm still of the opinion that terran has at least 1% advantage coming into every game simply because their mechanics are more forgiving but I'm also of the opinion that the game is probably in a good spot right now and we wont see big balance changes until blizzard breaks the game with their stupid new units. It'll be like the beta days all over again

[Salodin]

er sorry, didn't mean 33/33/33, but 50/50. But you get what I meant.

[Sonomaa]

I only play the secret fourth race, you guys are all imba

[Eanae]

PvG is my worst matchup.

[Gredival]

I agree that balance needs to be oriented to the top levels because you can't tell if one race is doing badly just because players don't use it correctly on ladder, whereas you can assume if they're doing badly at pro level it's more likely to be a balance issue.

However "the last three tournaments" aren't indicative of anything because of limited participation.

Do you really think IdrA or Stephano would have won with a full Korean contingent there? MMA's not bad, but IMMVP is clearly the top Terran in the world right now and probably the top player.

I'd say the GSL in its entirety, and maybe Korean Grandmaster, are really where one should be examining results for balance