I have returned: StarCraft II

[Eanae]

Please explain how there wasn't a full korean compliment at IPL. MMA, Puma, MC, Boxer, stc, Lucky, and there was more. Stephano even beat MKP in the qualifiers. Explain how you could get more koreans... -_-

[Gredival]

Please explain how there wasn't a full korean compliment at IPL. MMA, Puma, MC, Boxer, stc, Lucky, and there was more. Stephano even beat MKP in the qualifiers. Explain how you could get more koreans... -_-

I acknowledged MMA and PuMa, but again if we're talking Terran balance the standard is going to be MVP who is easily the best Terran currently.

Moreover, compared to the GSL in general? No NesTea who is probably a better Zerg than both IdrA and Stephano, yet constantly gets knocked out by MvP.

MC in a slump and currently Code B, same with Boxer (who's only major result sine GSL2 was 3rd at MLG Anaheim) which is why they were at IPL. This was Lucky's first major result ever.

Moreover there hasn't been a Protoss GSL champion since MC, and only one second place finish.

[Salodin]

Well, looks like some one did their homework lol.

[Eanae]

Code S is acknowledged for it's shitty format by almost every pro out there. Once you're into Code S, it's almost impossible to get knocked out of it. Only the bottom 1 player of each group falls out, the top 2 move on, and the third place player sits in until next season. It's a major problem that needs to be addressed. Now you're basically saying IPL3 results don't matter because the two recognized best players in the world weren't there? So that means nothing but Code S results matter to you? That's pretty bullshit. Boxer is 30, but still a damn good player so you can't count him out. MC is also back on his game if you even watched IPL3. He just happened to be knocked out by the best PvP player at the event, Inori. HuK was also knocked out by Inori. Inori was then taken out by Stephano.

Also Nestea was just barely taken down by MVP, and the games he lost he did some stupid plays and and got raped by helions. Besides you can't just look at Code S because "GSL Code S" isn't indicative of anything because of limited participation, right?

[Julian]

Any other BGers going to MLG Orlando?

I probably shoulda asked this earlier, to see if I could bum a room, but I already have arrangements now D:

[Gredival]

Code S is acknowledged for it's shitty format by almost every pro out there. Once you're into Code S, it's almost impossible to get knocked out of it. Only the bottom 1 player of each group falls out, the top 2 move on, and the third place player sits in until next season. It's a major problem that needs to be addressed.

Except that both BoxeR and MC got knocked out of Code S... and Code A. And MVP got knocked off Code S at one point too.

In fact it's exceedingly rare for someone to NEVER lose Code S status.

Yes only one person gets knocked out but you're talking about a very high level of competition and limited about of spots to start with anyway.

Now you're basically saying IPL3 results don't matter because the two recognized best players in the world weren't there? So that means nothing but Code S results matter to you? That's pretty bullshit.

No I'm saying that you can't dismiss balance issues simply because IPL and IEM were just won by Zergs. That says nothing about balance. Especially because the matchup in dispute is PvT, not TvZ.

Boxer is 30, but still a damn good player so you can't count him out.

Again not the point. Good player yes, but the fact is that his most significant significant result this year was MLG Anaheim which marked a good 7th months since he posted a significant result.

The fact he was at the tournament but Stephano nonetheless emerged as champion doesn't validate that Zerg is dominant.

MC is also back on his game if you even watched IPL3. He just happened to be knocked out by the best PvP player at the event, Inori. HuK was also knocked out by Inori. Inori was then taken out by Stephano.

I'm not really a HuK fan and the way he played at IPL3 is precisely why. "IM 4GATIN... owait"

Also Nestea was just barely taken down by MVP, and the games he lost he did some stupid plays and and got raped by helions.

T is heavily favored in one matchup even in another.

Z is even in both.

P is even in one and heavily unfavored in another.

Tell me how this isn't stilted to T?

Besides you can't just look at Code S because "GSL Code S" isn't indicative of anything because of limited participation, right?

Except that my point was not just "limited participation" -- look at I said right above that (how balance needs to be based off the top levels). The limited participation comment was clearly a reference to the absence of several high level Koreans.

The implicit assumption is that the Korean GSL circuit being the most talent laden and competitive, which makes it the "top level" from which to balance, as compared to the US/EU circuits.

[Eanae]

Getting put down into the up/down matches can be a stroke of bad luck. All you have to do is lose 2 matches and you're in up and downs. Combine that with being in a bad group and then getting shafted in up/downs and of course anyone can get knocked down. But, the amount of players falling down into the up/downs isn't enough to give a fresh cycling feeling to Code S.

[Gredival]

Getting put down into the up/down matches can be a stroke of bad luck. All you have to do is lose 2 matches and you're in up and downs. Combine that with being in a bad group and then getting shafted in up/downs and of course anyone can get knocked down. But, the amount of players falling down into the up/downs isn't enough to give a fresh cycling feeling to Code S.

But "freshness" is not the point, it's quality of the overall pool. The sentiment echo'd was that we should look to the GSL to assess balance and your criticism was that the GSL overprotects Code S. I pointed out that this is not true because even players like MVP fall out of Code S and two of the players you specifically brought up to demonstrate the quality of the competition at IPL aren't even in Code S. Your post just affirms the competition quality at Code S -- it's fierce enough that a high level player not on his game easily gets demoted

[Kuishen]

I'm so glad the comment of one little Gold-level Zerg (myself) spawned this argument. It really is intriguing though. Carry on.

[Thunder]

It's no longer about balance, that conversation aught to be over. Everyone should have agreed that "the last 3 tournaments" don't belong in a balance discussion unless they're apart of a large statistic that's impossible to make because of how young SC2 is.

The korean discussion is kind of dumb imo. The koreans had a ton of chances to compete and fell to people like stephano in qualifiers(I don't know which servers they played on or how that went, but I imagine a point can be made regarding that). They either didn't want to come or could not come - be it for personal reason or the inability to qualify.

There were plenty of good "koreans" in attendance though: puma, mma, ganzi, boxer, lucky, hero, mc, huk, inori, maybe more but hell if I go check(and because huk played poorly and is still hailed as one of the best protoss in korea by koreans like DRG then that speaks more about the level of skill among koreans and not as much about huk - ie, there wasn't much better that could have come over). The tournament is a very good accomplishment for Stephano and NOT zerg. I mean, it is for zerg too - just not in the balance aspect of it.

[geno]

Korean comeptition was weak in IEM, a lot stronger in IPL, is going to be even stronger at MLG, and then will be downright absurd at Blizzcon. Foreigners have really proved themselves so far imo by taking down level 1 and level 2, but I don't see them breaking through level 3 and certainly am doubtful of anyone taking anything from Nestea/MVP at Blizzcon. Would be happy to be proven wrong though!

As for the balance stuff... yes individual results like these taken on their own is a bit silly. As we get closer to HoTS it's going to matter less and less, because that game is going to completely break and re-form balance entirely, but who knows how long that will take to finish. Protoss are clearly doing fucking horribly recently, but I think that could change without a patch. I think with really smart and innovative play (ie the stuff I'm often seeing from White-Ra and Hero), we'll see protoss beating zerg a bit more often in these major tourneys, and if they are lucky enough with their brackets to avoid super strong Terrans, they could even get some wins!

[Rehn]

MLG Orlando time. Whose weekend will also be dominated by the stream?

[Lhyet]

I'm going to try, but being uncommunicative for the second weekend in a row to watch Starcraft is a good way to make me single D:

[quannum]

i hope:
MKP makes it to pool play
for an epic korean tvt
incontrol goes 0-6
kiwikaki shows more epic mothership
destiny makes it "far" in the open bracket

[Salodin]

Links to kiwikawi PLEASEEEE.

[SubzeroDiabolos]

TLO vs Boxer = lol fuck yeah.

[Not Kuno]

Saw my first actual live "tournament" today at Comic Con. Had Fruit Dealer and a few other names I didn't recognize. Never saw a live SC2 match before it was pretty exciting.

[Julian]

Today was fun as hell :D

I saw all the pros, and was like, holy shit.

Huk is SO FUCKING TINY lol. He's fucking adorable, though <3 I got him to sign my shirt, and also stood next to him while watching the TLO/haypro game (god haypro is so horrible, that game was painful to watch because they were just.. so bad)

We had two people from UF competing (maybe more but idk the others) one of them went up against whitera in the 2nd round, the other one went up against inori in the 2nd round lol. Fun times. Whitera was awesome, he kept taking pictures and signing stuff for all of his fans. He signed my shirt, and used up like 50% of one side lol. WHITERA more gg more skill *whiterasignature* Which, is awesome, and I don't mind at all, since I don't plan on getting too many signatures.

I actually didn't sit in the main stage that often, because there were so many other things to do, but I imagine the next two days the main stage will be a bit more important. (I think I was on camera a few times! You guys should try to spot me! Actually, don't. >_>)

Were there any BGers there today, or going tomorrow/sunday? =(

I saw Lbelle, said hi, said who I was, she said hi, then turned around and like ignored me, and I qq'd and walked away. Maybe she took my threat of taking drewbie away seriously, but that would mean she thinks drewbie might swing that way!?! (lol, kidding, <3 you guys and all, but seriously, why so mean to me )

[Vandole]

i told you many times she's a cunt

Spoiler: show

i would have at least offered a hug

[Salodin]

Pretty girls always be like that dude.