I have returned: StarCraft II

[Maguspk]

Nestea, Ret and IdrA all lost because they got outplayed, or were on xel'naga caverns. NesTea lost because he was pissed off and played extremely sub-par compared to how he normally plays, maybe you could analyze games better if you were out of bronze. Mutas are extremely strong in ZvP if you can hold a 6gate timing, mass expanding and always countering makes it nearly impossible for P to win. Warp prisms can be denied 100% through positioning and overlord spread, which none of the Zs that played today had.

Good luck spreading your overlords when he has map control with phoenix and void rays, oh wait. You lose to gate pressure if you go mutas, you don't know what you're talking about. The problem is the Protoss can go Stargate or 6 gate which makes the zerg play a guessing game unless they can manage to get an overlord inside. They didn't get outplayed, they got cheesed. This is like 2 Barracks pressure all over again, sure you can defend it but it's stupid strong and totally forces a Zerg to be entirely reactionary and stagnates gameplay. Force field on the ramp is a checkmate that the Protoss can play without having to put himself at risk at any point. If he sees you saw the Prism he just unloads somewhere else or pulls back, or blocks the other side of your ramp after he's forced your army out of position, lol.

This isn't something that spreading overlords or going mutas fixes, it's a much deeper problem than that and will require changes which just became even worse thanks to the Warp Prism becoming much stronger.

[Lhyet]

Warp Prism and FF on the ramp isn't new to the game, it's just new to MLG.
First I read of this strat was a few months ago, which I have tried a few times to varied results. Obviously it's much more deadly in the hands of a pro than a Silver leaguer, but acting like it's something new and OP is silly. There's plenty to counter it if you're scouting properly.

No, I'm not trying to say I know better than the pros but simply what Stewie said; they got outplayed.

[Julian]

Forcefielding the ramp has always been frustrating, but the difference now is that they're using warp prisms to do it, and they park themselves in the main. They can go in, forcefield you out, and just kill all of your tech, then leave. Or just kill you since protoss can just warp in all of their shit in your base anyway.

How retarded would medivac drops be if you could "rally" all of your barracks to your medivacs, so they pop out of the medivacs, inside your base? Because that's what protoss is like. -_- edit: and completely block off your ramp so you can't get back to fight it off!

I don't think it's unbeatable, and with some adjustments, should be manageable instead of just an insta-loss.

Maybe zergs will start getting burrow+roach burrow faster again?

[Raen Ryong]

If you have good Overlord placement, you can see the Warp Prism coming and know where to position your army. If your Overlords are being denied by Stargate play, get vision of the ground area and keep your army ready to react in the main.

EDIT: A lot of zergs favour putting expensive tech in the natural too.

[Not Kuno]

Pretty insane games by Liquid_Hero so far!


http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/liv...t_2?slug=scRed

Is there another link to this? I started watching and then todays stream started and cut off the old stream. '~' Site is such a pain to navigate I wanna watch yesterdays games first. D:

[Salodin]

Maybe zerg need to start putting spore crawlers in areas other then just their mineral line like every other race has to do to deal with muta harass on tech structures. =\ the solution to this is rather easy, people are just complaining about something that is finally being used correctly.

[Thunder]

I think people forget that not much has changed in terms of actual changes to numbers since protoss was losing very badly to zerg. Now people are claiming toss is OP? That's rich.

There are going to be peaks and wells in the performances between each race and it takes a bit of time to get out of them. Just like BW. Especially now that everything is new and "never-before-seen!". Complaining about balance the day a race breaks out and beats a bunch of other high end players is pretty silly. Especially when a solution is already present: just spore crawler around your main. And who knows if people are going to finesse their way into better solutions. The way I see this is zerg not taking the precautions they should need to. What happens when mutas are vs a terran with no turrets? Any race vs a zerg with 120 drones?

Specific to Idra: he already had crawlers on the perimeter of his main base, all he was missing was a crawler on his ramp to prevent MC from camping over it waiting for warp ins(also another crawler in the SE corner of his base, too). If he had those extra crawlers there was no way MC could keep warping shit in with void ray/phoenix support. Idra already almost killed the sentry/stalker ball with zerglings that hatched from up there so I don't see the problem.

But nestea.. I think he got outplayed pretty severely. I knew that was coming though. He's normally calm and doesn't practice hard before matches? Now he's upset and practiced hard before the match? You don't go changing your routine as a competitor lol


edit: fak, forgot about watching MLG this morning - can anyone tell me how naniwa v huk went? can't find it quickly enough on TLs LR threads lol
Edit2: oh my god, mvp just gg'd to haypro game 1

[Maguspk]

Forcefielding the ramp has always been frustrating, but the difference now is that they're using warp prisms to do it, and they park themselves in the main. They can go in, forcefield you out, and just kill all of your tech, then leave. Or just kill you since protoss can just warp in all of their shit in your base anyway.

How retarded would medivac drops be if you could "rally" all of your barracks to your medivacs, so they pop out of the medivacs, inside your base? Because that's what protoss is like. -_- edit: and completely block off your ramp so you can't get back to fight it off!

I don't think it's unbeatable, and with some adjustments, should be manageable instead of just an insta-loss.

Maybe zergs will start getting burrow+roach burrow faster again?

Burrow roaches is a coin flip because if they go Stargate you are fucked.

Nobody is saying Protoss is OP or that this is new, but Warp Prism buff makes it entirely different now. The point is the strategy is too solid, Zerg options to deal with it require much more effort and deviation from normal play while the Protoss can build one warp prism and if he doesn't feel like going through can just sit home and expand again since the zerg was just forced to prepare for it. You need to see the big picture, it really fucks up the Zerg and does nothing to hinder the Protoss and leads into a killing move (destroying main base/natural) and/or safely expanding since the zerg just had to waste many larva on Spore Crawlers and possibly tech to even attempt at reacting.

[Thunder]

Yeah, I see where protoss getting warp prism forces zerg to prepare for it and the preparing =/= getting warp prism. But zerg has had to do that literally forever now against terrans and both terran/protoss have that dynamic between each other.

I don't think it should be considered unfair if going on route required a big response. You see that everywhere. Let this play out dood, I'm very certain zergs will deal with this just fine and it'll be relegated to where MC's 6gate push against terrans is at.

[Not Kuno]

can anyone tell me how naniwa v huk went? can't find it quickly enough on TLs LR threads lol

Sorry, I had to leave RIGHT before that match and I paused it. :X

I always felt it was too easy for toss to get warp gate tech. But I don't know if changing that will fix the warp prism thing.

[Gredival]

Wow Leenock... Takes out BoxeR, MMA, IdrA, HuK, and MVP.

[Salodin]

I dont get it, whats the problem? Just one spore crawler would be enough to take out a warp prism before the warps can finish, not to mention if they were spread out around a base like terrans use turrets.

[Gredival]

I think it also has a lot to do with how Zerg's units are made at Hatcheries. Protoss and Terran will tend to have their unit producing structures clustered in the main or the natural. Other bases are purely for mining and protected only as far as the mineral line is necessary. But Hatcheries being so spread out usually Zerg is more vulnerable to FF ramp play

[Salodin]

Against terran id agree, since they need to reinforce and deal with the entire army thats there. Against toss, its more preventing it from happening/persisting as long as it will if the warp prism stays alive. Moar spore crawlers, that is the answer.

[Maguspk]

I dont get it, whats the problem? Just one spore crawler would be enough to take out a warp prism before the warps can finish, not to mention if they were spread out around a base like terrans use turrets.

Spores are not the answer. You make a bunch of spores then they just don't do the drop and you just wasted larva. That's why you make 1-2 spores and put them in a high density area. The problem is that the prism can setup anywhere in or around the base and the effect is the same (an instant warp-in location), and if they choose not to it's fine they can use the prism to reinforce normally and not do a cheesy ramp FF and they didn't lose anything, whereas the zerg just lost a lot of potential drones/units. You are very wrong in thinking that spores and turrets are the same and can be used the same without effect. Spores are much more 'expensive' to a zerg especially during the time they would need to deflect any potential warp prism.

The MLG finals were such a joke. Kind of funny how Naniwa highlighted how his success revolves around a FFE and 2-base timing. Leenock did exactly what he had to do.

[Salodin]

Spores are not the answer. You make a bunch of spores then they just don't do the drop and you just wasted larva. That's why you make 1-2 spores and put them in a high density area. The problem is that the prism can setup anywhere in or around the base and the effect is the same (an instant warp-in location), and if they choose not to it's fine they can use the prism to reinforce normally and not do a cheesy ramp FF and they didn't lose anything, whereas the zerg just lost a lot of potential drones/units.

The MLG finals were such a joke. Kind of funny how Naniwa highlighted how his success revolves around a FFE and 2-base timing. Leenock did exactly what he had to do.

Then you sir are asking for the same thing to happen again and again. 3-4 would be a more reasonable number, and you'd lose a lot less things compared to just making 1-2 and taking it in the ass when/if he drops you. Pros risk a lot more doing other things, like putting teech structures at expansions instead of the main, I don't see the big deal in using 2-3 more larva on spore crawlers instead of something like zerglings. Not to mention by the time warp prisms are even a concern, zerg should already be on three bases, with a possible macro hatch at one of them.

Also, any one up for games tonight?

[Maguspk]

Not to mention by the time warp prisms are even a concern, zerg should already be on three bases, with a possible macro hatch at one of them.

Confirmed for not knowing what the fuck. Thanks.

[Thunder]

Zerg always has to overcompensate for shit because the opponent can always "give up" on their attack and preparing for the attack costs less than zerg preparing to defend it does.

I still think you're making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is. Yeah, it totally obliterated some zergs at MLG, but I can bet in a month or two this will be no problem to defend because either zergs will control their armies better(know when to move stuff into their main) or just.. more spores. And I don't know how far behind you get spending 2-3 extra larva on spores sets you. It's only x(75+50) minerals with x being extra spores.. which shouldn't be more than 3 and most times just 2. I doubt it's even possible to exploit a zerg being 3 larva and 375 minerals because they spent it on 3 extra spores.

[Salodin]

Suddenly, pro toss players have found a way to deal damage with out A-moving a deathball into an enemy. Time to adjust protoss, we can't be having this shit.

Is there any reason to have a paid membership to MLGs site other then to get early access to vods?

[Deftscythe]

Hi, my name is Naniwa...

Spoiler: show

I do the same greedy expand builds PvZ all weekend and expect not to get punished for it.