I have returned: StarCraft II

[Gredival]

If they're like Boxer they'll just drop down to code B. OH SNAP. Ok that was mean, since he forfeit his last game due to surgery.

I swear, people don't even know why Boxer is so popular. It wasn't because he was AMAZINGLY GOOD like Flash or Jaedong or any of the S ranked players. He was an innovative player who did things out of the ordinary that shouldn't work but he made work. He is most popular for creating E-sports, not for playing the game.

BoxeR WAS amazingly good; part of being so good was the fact he was so innovative. His ability to win like that made matches popular and did help create eSports. But BoxeR's reign as a Bonjwa ended long before he transitioned to SC2. The fact is that it's incredibly hard to stay good at Starcraft, especially at the very top, for a prolonged period. Everyone before Flash who reigned over Brood War eventually fell from the top spot due to deteriorating talent (well Savior was kicked out).

July and NaDa are doing relatively well, and they weren't at the top of the scene when they transferred (and July was never a bonjwa). Flash has a chance to be outright dominant because he would be transitioning over at top form. Being so good at SC1, he will be years ahead of everyone in SC2 in terms of mechanics.

But SC2 places a lot less emphasis on mechanics due to the improved engine, so the ultimate question is whether he will be able to adjust to the new game in terms of strategy/reaction type play.

[Not Kuno]

Fair enough. Either way I'm excited to see what'll happen. Especially with expansion not that far away. Like next year?

Also the naniwa match is starting in 10 minutes or so. So fucking pumped.

[altwight]

Flash is going to dominate simply because his heart is nothing but SC. He plays all day everyday. Look at most pro players in SC2 scene, they play maybe 20 games a day. Naniwa said he played 60 games a day for two weeks or something in preparation for MvP match tonight though.

[Not Kuno]

Yeah. Flash is gonna rape. I really hope Naniwa at least makes it to the round of 4. Even though he is guaranteed to be in Code S next season due to his own merit, it would really suck if he got eliminated here.

Either way, I don't like the best of 5 format only because of my viewing ability. I can normally watch some games before work, but this will take to long. I'm gonna have to leave midway. D: I don't have the patience to wait until I get home.

[Gredival]

I'm rooting for Mvp; I still think of him as the best of SC2 even if he's been declining/others have been catching up. Also it's sad to see his game go cuz of his wrist issues.

Flash is going to dominate simply because his heart is nothing but SC. He plays all day everyday. Look at most pro players in SC2 scene, they play maybe 20 games a day. Naniwa said he played 60 games a day for two weeks or something in preparation for MvP match tonight though.

No doubt pure mechanics are important. IdrA absolutely dominated the foreign scene at the start due to the gap in mechanics from his Brood War background. But the game is less mechanics oriented now with the ability to hotkey multiple buildings, auto-mining, etc. He will have to be on top of the meta too, which could be hard coming over from Brood War.

I think the expansion could help a lot though in putting him on even ground in terms of meta-game understanding

[Not Kuno]

GSL

Spoiler: show

Yeah Naniwa is not doing so good. Down 2 games, last game is antiga. If he pulls this off I'll be impressed.

[altwight]

gsl

Spoiler: show

i feel pretty bad for naniwa you can see the anxiety in his body right now whereas mvp is smiling and having a good time like he just simply does not care. i guess that's the difference in someone who has seen 3 gsl titles and countless other victories. to him it's simply another win, to naniwa it's a life changing moment

[altwight]

LOL
NANIWA'S FACE THAT LAST GAME!

[Not Kuno]

gsl

Spoiler: show

Cheeeese D:

[altwight]

gsl

Spoiler: show

imo he reacted totally wrong to that double proxy but w/e im not code s

[Not Kuno]

Spoiler: show

Yeah. He could have handled that way better considering the fast scout of it.

[altwight]

nerves etc

[Deftscythe]

Spoiler: show

Nerves was definitely a factor, that was obvious just by looking at Naniwa before game 3. He takes the game more seriously than most of his peers, only cares about winning, etc. Still though, I feel like his big flaw right now is he plays too greedy. Game 4, he's faced with elimination if he loses, MVP knows he can still afford to drop a game. You have to play super safe in a situation like that.

[geno]

Spoiler: show

I'm sure it was in part nerves, especially the stalker sitting out in the middle on the last game rather then harassing SCVs. But more than that, seemed like a lack of preparation against cheese. He probably over-prepared for macro games and ignored the possibility of this type of play from MVP, as he seemed completely caught off guard and unaware of the best response in both games 2 and 4 (both of which he could have won with a better response).

I think a second gate or a forge in that last game was an easy win. The 2nd game, a third cannon would have been the best choice of course, but just having a probe at the edge of his vision to see the SCVs coming early enough to pull probes also probably could have won it. Or forcefielding the SCVs off the cannons (rather than trying to push the marines), also might have saved it. A little more prep against cheeses like this and he probably would have known that instinctively instead of having to make that kind of judgement call on the spot and failing like he did

[Deftscythe]

Spoiler: show

Yeah, I got the same impression about Naniwa's preparation while watching 2 and 4. With the amount of time he had to prepare, you would think he'd grab Bomber and just drill cheese defense for like 2 or 3 of the days.

[geno]

Back to the BW->SC2 stuff, as probably the biggest fan of BW progaming of old on the board, I can give a bit more insight into why this transition is pretty critical. But first, a little background on those that have already switched for anyone who is genuinely curious about some BW history.

Spoiler: show

Yes, Boxer, July, and Nada were all super big names in BW and each have multiple Starleague wins. They are all legends in their own right. But they were faded legends.

Boxer was at his best in the early 2000s as a player, but became larger than life as an e-sports personality because of his actions outside the game. When people say he helped build e-sports, they mean that quite literally. He was a MAJOR factor in the establishment of the modern team structure and sponsor acquisition, and even managed to lobby the government to create a team in the form of Air Force ACE, where select progamers could complete their military duty without abandoning the game. Boxer is the biggest name in BW because without him, its very unlikely the e-sports model Korea has now would have ever been established.

Nada and July were more known as players only, but both were extremely dominant at certain times. They each had multiple periods of extreme strength, but the vast majority of their combined careers is pre-2007. July had 1 amazing run in 2009, taking an OSL, but it was sort of a flash-in-the-pan comeback, and was not really representative of his play on either side of the run. They both could be counted on to take some wins in proleague every now and again, but they had already long lost the BW-equivalent status of Code S even by mid-2009, well before SC2's release and their transition.

The only other Starleague winner that has transferred (at least that I can remember.. certainly the only relevant one), is ForGG who also took his win in 2009 (within a month of July's win actually). He pioneered a very timing-heavy style and took out some major names including Jaedong in the finals. But he peaked really early and fell very quickly. He seemed to drop completely off everyone's radar within half a year and had quickly faded back into the mediocrity.

So none of the biggest names we know that have switched (Boxer, Nada, July, and ForGG) were at all in good shape when they quit BW and moved onto SC2. I would actually argue that the best BW players at the time of their switch were actually MVP and MC (then known as Iron). Neither were legends, starleague winners, or even top players at the time, but they were both on their way up, not down, which is an important distinction. I actually remember watching an MVP vs Flash game shortly before he switched that he won in the super late game thinking how much potential he had.

That said, none of these players or any other BW player who has switched could hold at a candle to the likes of Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu (as well as a handful of other S-class players like Fantasy, Jangbi, Stork, and others).

Flash is not Boxer, he is not forGG. He is still at the absolute top of his game, both mechanically, and maybe more importantly, mentally. This is true for all the BW elites, and this will really be the first time we get to see players that are in this situation make the switch, and they will be doing it with their whole supportive infrastructure in tact (teams, houses, league, and all).

I think it will take awhile for them to really get a feel for how the game actually handles, as well as learn as much of the metagame as they can. But I can't help but feel the absolutely unbelievable mechanics and multitasking of these guys is going to eventually shine through.

[geno]

Also, @Gred, even Savior is not really an exception to that pre-Flash rule. He did get kicked out eventually, but he was already well into a very deep slump (one that was so deep as to not even be explainable by match-fixing, lol).

Also, I kind of disagree about SC2 not being about mechanics as much as BW. I just think the game is considerably less understood, so mechanics haven't yet come into play as much. But that has changed quite a bit, especially recently. Protosses like Hero and Parting, zergs like DRG and Stephano, and Terrans like MKP show what even slightly superior positioning, micro, and multitasking are capable of. All of these guys are showing games with considerably more harass, reaction speed, and intense army control and positioning than we are used to seeing from SC2 players. If the BW pros are able to build on that foundation with their own skill, they could be downright unstoppable.

[Deftscythe]

Geno, as someone who didn't follow BW, I'm a little confused by part of that article from TL.

He also commented about eligibility of becoming a 'pro'. "When we make a full transition to Starcraft 2 league all pre-existing BW players will be able to continue their career as a pro gamer playing Starcraft 2. We are still talking with Gretech about players who are participating in GSL and GSTL, we hope to reveal more details before the full transition into Starcraft 2"

Does KeSPA have to sanction a player for them to compete in Korea? What are the limits on players without that sanction?

[Gredival]

Does KeSPA have to sanction a player for them to compete in Korea? What are the limits on players without that sanction?

Effectively, yes. The reason sAviOR couldn't compete after he was banned from KeSPA is that you can't really be a successful pro without KeSPA status due to competition restrictions.

[Deftscythe]

So, when SC2 becomes a KeSPA game, what does that mean for Code B in GSL? Will the hundreds that show up have to get some KeSPA license just to try to get in Code A?