I have returned: StarCraft II

[Maguspk]

Try it out first. Also the distance thing was referring to mules, don't be dumb.

[geno]

I did try it out. Same patch, closest patch. 270 without, 300 with. It's always been 270 without on closer patches (240 on further ones)

[Syntex]

Interesting.

[rithridan]

I finally tried playing online and did my placement matches. I didn't think I'd get very far at all, all I really do is just watch some replays but I have no idea when I'm actually playing myself. I have so many faults in my game that I'd be a waste of time summing them up. The placement matches went a lot better then I expected though.

First placement match I was matched up as Terran against another Terran on Scrap Station. Since it's close positions through air but quite a walk with a land army I figured I'd try to go for Banshees. I went ahead and scouted with my supply depot scv (so scout @11) and I saw he was building a wall-in. Eventually lost my scv to a couple of marines while I went ahead and teched straight to Banshees. When I attacked with a Banshee I noticed he went for Vikings (only 1 Starport with a Reactor) so I put a Reactor on my second Starport and started pumping Vikings. Some air battles later and it was GG when he ran out of resources and I denied him an expansion. 1-0

Second placement match was against a Protoss on Desert Oasis. I noticed he had 2 Assimilators and 2 Pylons in his base when I scouted and after a while he started building a Gateway. I just rallied 2 Barracks to his base and went to attack with MM w/ concussive/stim research. A quick GG after he lost 5-6 zealots without killing a marine. 2-0

Third placement match was against another Protoss on the same map. This time the Protoss had some defense ready so I just stayed safely behind my wall-in. Except, that my wall-in wasn't actually closed properly so the 6 or so zealots he came to test me with just walked into my main. I only had about 4 marines at that time with a Banshee in the making. Thankfully he didn't have charge since he went straight for 2 Stargates and his zealots kept running after my scvs. With minimal losses I managed to fend him off and started harassing his mineral line with my Banshee till a couple of Stalkers showed up and a couple of Voidrays started chasing my Banshee. In the meantime I was pumping Vikings to counter his Voidrays and when I had enough Vikings I attacked him to kill his Voidrays before he got too many of them. When I managed to kill his Voidrays I stupidly landed my Vikings in his mineral line to do some more probe damage after killing his Stalkers but apparently Stalkers > Vikings on land, hehe. He tried to counter right away but with the Marine/Viking army I had built up in the meantime he soon gave up after losing his remaining Stalkers/Voidrays. 3-0

Fourth placement was against a Zerg on Lost Temple. I didn't know what to do against zerg really so I just walled in (this time I did it properly) and went for Vikings to harass his Overlords and force him to play blind. I did make some cheap mineral only units like Marines and Hellions in case he came with lots of zerglings. Eventually right when I expanded to my natural and built an Engineerings Bay and a Bunker near it he came with a baneling/speedling which I luckely defended because all the speedlings came running in first into my 2-3 hellions and 6-8 or so marines. The Banelings came afterwards but did little damage. I tried countering immediatly but lost my hellions due to not paying attention, hellions are a lot faster then marines and I just a-moved while doing some other stuff waiting for my army to get there. By the time I saw it I lost most my hellions to his queen and some zerglings at his expansion. I killed his queen with my marines though and went to tech to Thors for another push with marine/hellion/thors with my Vikings flying around killing any Overlord I could find. It was GG soon after I killed his expansion but not before he got another baneling/speedling push into my expansion. Thankfully I had a recently built Thor there who ate most of the banelings before dying. 4-0

My last placement match was against another Zerg but this time on Blistering Sands. This is the first opponent I had that seemed to have a BO prepared because he came quite fast with 4 roaches and a lot of zerglings. Again I botched up my wall-in and he could run straight in with his zerglings. But I did defend it with marines and a marauder. Then I made the mistake of countering with what I had left (4-5 marines and a maruader without upgrades, i think). Which got slaughtered at the middle by another batch of zerglings. The same zerglings overran me at my expansion where I only had a few marines and a Bunker+CC in the making. In the replay I noticed the zerg didn't go above 15 drones and was just pumping units, although he did expand around the same time as me. I think if I held him off for a bit longer and kept scouting properly to see if he would go for Lair techs (spire or den) I mightve had a change at midgame if I kept my macro up. Oh well, I went 4-1 in my placement and now I've been placed in platinum which I feel is a bit high for me considering I don't have a gameplan of my own. I just go 10 supply, @100% supply->scout, 11 barracks, 12/13 refinery and then just wing it.

[rithridan]

double post, sorry

[Maguspk]

I did try it out. Same patch, closest patch. 270 without, 300 with. It's always been 270 without on closer patches (240 on further ones)

Hm that's actually pretty huge. Makes me hate Terran even more.

[Falaras]

Hm that's actually pretty huge. Makes me hate Terran even more.

Grats man.

[geno]

You're definitely not alone there. Can't wait for patch 1.1, hope there are some good balance changes with it. Hope they fix my damn achievement glitch too, would move me up to like top20 world in achievement points!

[Syntex]

I'm waiting for the zerg expansion in hopes they may put as much effort and detail into making zerg awesome like they did terran.

[tol]

I'm sure it's been discussed before but will the subsequent expansions cost money? if so, how much?

[Maguspk]

Grats man.

Enjoy your OP race as long as you can, I'm sure you'll feel mediocre at best in no time.

Now they just need to nerf Marauders and I'll be happy ;p. Siege tank nerf is really great though, still sucks as zerg that siege tech is literally un-counterable, but hopefully the nerf in damage will help with Hydra/Ling comps.

[Falaras]

Enjoy your OP race as long as you can, I'm sure you'll feel mediocre at best in no time.

Now they just need to nerf Marauders and I'll be happy ;p. Siege tank nerf is really great though, still sucks as zerg that siege tech is literally un-counterable, but hopefully the nerf in damage will help with Hydra/Ling comps.

Grats man.'
Seriously like every post I've seen of yours has been "LOL TERRAN OP".
Oh and I didn't get to where I am by just beating Zergs so obviously my "OP race" isn't whats making me win.
Oh and seige tech meet Nydus Worms/Overlord dropping.
Marauders meet the Mutalisks that are currently uncounterable.

[geno]

Enjoy your OP race as long as you can, I'm sure you'll feel mediocre at best in no time.

Now they just need to nerf Marauders and I'll be happy ;p. Siege tank nerf is really great though, still sucks as zerg that siege tech is literally un-counterable, but hopefully the nerf in damage will help with Hydra/Ling comps.

Not entirely true, you could always counter it with Brood Lords! While a joke, its kind of sad because its also the best actual counter to tanks for the most part. I'm glad I play P and not Z, I think the thing that would bother me the most about that matchup is just how little control you have over the flow of the game. In general, Terran is good at controlling the way the game plays out in all their matchups, but its really the harshest with TvZ. They have any number of variable openings, and because of the strength of a wall, salvagable bunkers, extremely strong turrets, and the overwhelming advantages reapers and marauders have over lings and roaches respectively, the Zerg is forced to play reactionary.

With protoss, the beginning is largely dictated by the terran (just the threat of a reaper opening forces protoss into such a reactionary position), but eventually we actually get to make some decisions that force the terran to react. Stargate or Robo are generally equally good paths to choose. Both allow an easy scout (a phoenix / observer) and both have powerful damage dealers that will destroy bad compositions of units (particularly if not scouted).

Zerg just doesn't seem to have that as far as I can tell. Reaper and hellion openings are just so harsh, allowing infinite scouting and harass while also forcing very specific reactions from the zerg so they do not just die outright. Terran's can invariably assume mutas are coming shortly afterwards (lol@hydras vs terran). Thor production plus a couple missile turrets later and the game is firmly in their hands so long as they can prevent a 3rd base.

From what I've seen, the real powerhouse zergs all shine because they are able to get that third base which just opens up so many options. From mass mass hatch tech like baneling roach, all the way to quick and plentiful hive tech units like Ultras and Broodlords, there are just so many more options that are actually fairly effective. It's just getting there that is the problem.

[Falaras]

Zerg just doesn't seem to have that as far as I can tell. Reaper and hellion openings are just so harsh, allowing infinite scouting and harass while also forcing very specific reactions from the zerg so they do not just die outright. Terran's can invariably assume mutas are coming shortly afterwards (lol@hydras vs terran). Thor production plus a couple missile turrets later and the game is firmly in their hands so long as they can prevent a 3rd base.

If the zerg player uses the magic box it only takes what 4 mutas to down 1 thor? And do you know how long it takes to make 1 thor compared to 4 mutas? I'll agree missle turrets are very nice for small amounts of Mutas but once Muta Baneling gets rolling good luck. I also agree that 5 rax reaper is a bit too powerful against Zerg and that the nerf is definitely warranted. The thing I just find ridiculous is people like idrA just ram their heads into seige tanks over and over and then QQ about imbalance and rage quit. Guess what my race has to deal with tanks too and we do it by attacking elsewhere. Hell I don't think I've ever seen idrA USE a nydus worm, and they are one of the rarest things to actually see used by pro zergs.
Go watch the the interview with Day[9] at at WCG, he makes excellent points, even bringing up the fact that Protoss is the strongest race on the Korean servers already. The games been out a month, wait for people to actually learn to counter shit.

[geno]

Grats man.'
Seriously like every post I've seen of yours has been "LOL TERRAN OP".
Oh and I didn't get to where I am by just beating Zergs so obviously my "OP race" isn't whats making me win.
Oh and seige tech meet Nydus Worms/Overlord dropping.
Marauders meet the Mutalisks that are currently uncounterable.

Nydus worms are just straight up a really really bad choice versus seige tanks. Hitting the base is a good idea, but their effectiveness relies solely on not being scouted because of how easily they are killed (it only takes a handful of SCVs if its spotted quickly). Any response that requires the opponent to be bad for success is just not a reasonable element of balance.

Drop tech I think is definitely, or would definitely be an awesome addition for ZvT save for its cost and time. None of the upgrades can be reasearched until lair tech, each upgrade is quite lengthy, and the gas cost is extraordinary. Compare this to medivacs, which cost less, require no upgrades, and also heal the units they are with. There is just no contest.

Finally, lolllll @ uncounterable mutalisks. 2 Thors and maybe 20~ marines could probably take out 100+ mutalisks, lol. In large enough numbers and with the magic box technique, mutas are very strong, but cost for cost, they are not really an option against a Terran army built to counter them. They excel considerably more when they get effective harass in and are mixed with a supporting cast (that pretty much has to include banelings to deal with the marines), but by no means are they uncounterable.

[geno]

I don't really listen to what idra has to say, he just likes to complain it seems. I don't think he's wrong on a lot of balance points, and I think there is PLENTY of reason for a lack of Nydus worm usage in his play, but he still goes overboard on the whining.

And like I said earlier, late game 3+base zerg is fine as far as I'm concerned. You're right when you say giant muta baneling balls are pretty damn amazing, even for the strongest of terran combos. That doesn't even take into account what you can do with Hive tech, and yes, even nydus worms when you are finally getting the gas to support it.

It's just getting there that is the problem. I've never really seen any Zerg get a healthy 3rd up without the terran making some kind of mistake, whether it be a lack of scouting, incorrect composition, poor/nonexistant harass, etc. I've yet to see a zerg strategy that gets down a 3rd safely that will work a second time around when a player like ensnare is sitting on the other side of the screen.

[Falaras]

Nydus worms are just straight up a really really bad choice versus seige tanks. Hitting the base is a good idea, but their effectiveness relies solely on not being scouted because of how easily they are killed (it only takes a handful of SCVs if its spotted quickly). Any response that requires the opponent to be bad for success is just not a reasonable element of balance.

Drop tech I think is definitely, or would definitely be an awesome addition for ZvT save for its cost and time. None of the upgrades can be reasearched until lair tech, each upgrade is quite lengthy, and the gas cost is extraordinary. Compare this to medivacs, which cost less, require no upgrades, and also heal the units they are with. There is just no contest.

Finally, lolllll @ uncounterable mutalisks. 2 Thors and maybe 20~ marines could probably take out 100+ mutalisks, lol. In large enough numbers and with the magic box technique, mutas are very strong, but cost for cost, they are not really an option against a Terran army built to counter them. They excel considerably more when they get effective harass in and are mixed with a supporting cast (that pretty much has to include banelings to deal with the marines), but by no means are they uncounterable.

There have been some amazing replays between koreans using the shit out of nydus worms to both attack and retreat versus other good players. When you are seiged out in the field you do not have the time to retreat and save your tech, sure you may get the worm after its already flooded your base but in the late game there are so many places to hit (Even hit them at two places at the same time!) that its a very effective strategy.

Ok medivacs heal your units, Overlords are your supply. You will have your drop ships no matter what as long as you research it, and not even a reactored starport can produce them as fast. What at cost less?

Guess what, the normal strat when going Mutas is to mix in Banelings and Lings, marines melt under banelings, thors are not produced fast enough to counter mutalisks. I'm not saying mutas are overpowered at all if you notice, I'm saying they aren't exactly counterable since the magic box has been found out.

[Maguspk]

lol Falaras is hilarious. Don't get upset that your race is recognized as being overpowered as evidenced by Blizzards choice in waving it's nerf bat. Just accept the wacks gracefully and acknowledge Terran Siege tech is currently not something a Zerg can offensively deal with and thusly gives the game to the Terran player on a platter as long as they do not make mistakes. All the counters you suggest only work if the Terran player makes a mistake or has a lapse in judgement. Nydus worms are not used in high level play for a reason, we've all seen that replay with the nydus worms on Metalopolis, funny too, who won that match? Yeah.

It's okay, it's going to be fun watching Terrans lose rank once they lose Siege tanks. Then after a zerg deal with the initial harass maybe they can move into a mid game with more bases. I agree totally geno, yes when zerg is able to maintain a +1 base on their opponent matches are fairly exciting because the zerg is able to trade their army much more often, but it still doesn't shift the control of the game out from under the Terran, they still dictate the match and when and what the zerg can do.

[geno]

If the terran has decent macro and a quick reaction, reinforcements being pumped will be able to pick off any Nydus before it finishes. Hell, even SCVs can take out a nydus before it finishes. But even if it does finish, in order for it to work, you need to get an army out of that nydus and you have to be able to get it back. If the terran is able to pick off the nydus with part of the army out, it accomplishes what many players complain about against protoss w/ forcfield: it splits up the army and lets you walk over them. Even if you pick it off with the whole army out, once that army is dead, a counter attack will 90% of the time finish off a 2 base zerg. In order for it to work (and yes, I have seen it work), you HAVE to get that army back in time. Unfortunately, thats just not always in your control as a zerg.

And anyways, I think thats beside the larger point that I think you are missing in all of your arguments: the economy involved. I don't dispute the power of the strategies you pointed out. Nydus worms can be extremely effective in the sense you are talking about, large spread out base, and multiple uses even at the same time. The only time in the game when you are going to be able to get away with that or even afford it is going to be 3+ base play.

The same goes for the kind of mass muta/bane strategy you are talking about. Magic box or not, you just won't have enough units to stand up to a well made terran force going muta/baneling off 2 base (save for maybe some drone cutting all-in timing attack that abuses mass lings as well).

Overlord drops are the most interesting, because I do think they stand the greatest chance of being an effective strategy in the future. The biggest issue with them is time. Getting speed and drops just takes so long, and costs so much gas that you are left extremely vulnerable if you try to commit too many units. If you use too few, they will get eaten alive by reinforcements without dealing any real damage. Ret and Haypro cover this a bit in the interview they did recently:

I think drops could be nice, but here the problem is time as well - dropping is something that requires units and you can’t really spare units until you get to a point in the game where you can relax and you know the Terran or Protoss wont attack you any moment. On some maps you can’t really spare the units until after you’ve won a battle and sometimes you’ve already lost the game by then and you invested 300/300 in drop and overlord speed when you needed it for your army.

I really think a very small change to drops could end up a very big change to the matchup. Small changes in cost and time would be huge, but I think they could get away with a lot more than that. Even something as radical as having overlords start with ventral sacs would be really cool. They still would need to research speed at lair to have any effect as a mid game strategy, but it would have a lot of interesting effects otherwise. The most obvious would be the lower cost and time investment involved in getting to drop tech, which would make it a considerably more viable tactic in the midgame (when you are trying to get some breathing room to take a 3rd). Even more interesting I think would be the effect on the early game. Scouting would no longer involve futilely sacing an overlord hoping to luckily stumble onto their tech, because you'd only need to go far enough in to drop some lings in and run around. It could also give rise to some really cool early game timing attacks to get around walls (these would of course be surprise strategies as they would easily be dealt with if the opponent knew they were coming at sloverlord speed). I think it could add a lot of flair, and most importantly, offer a way for Zerg to actually take some control over the flow of the early game that they desperately lack right now.

[Falaras]

lol Falaras is hilarious. Don't get upset that your race is recognized as being overpowered as evidenced by Blizzards choice in waving it's nerf bat. Just accept the wacks gracefully and acknowledge Terran Siege tech is currently not something a Zerg can offensively deal with and thusly gives the game to the Terran player on a platter as long as they do not make mistakes. All the counters you suggest only work if the Terran player makes a mistake or has a lapse in judgement. Nydus worms are not used in high level play for a reason, we've all seen that replay with the nydus worms on Metalopolis, funny too, who won that match? Yeah.

It's okay, it's going to be fun watching Terrans lose rank once they lose Siege tanks. Then after a zerg deal with the initial harass maybe they can move into a mid game with more bases. I agree totally geno, yes when zerg is able to maintain a +1 base on their opponent matches are fairly exciting because the zerg is able to trade their army much more often, but it still doesn't shift the control of the game out from under the Terran, they still dictate the match and when and what the zerg can do.

I'm sorry but you are flat out wrong. Most players recognize that the terrans ability to 5 rax reaper forcing zerg into a defensive state is too powerful at the moment but its being fixed. You are over here going "NERF MARAUDERS OMG TERRAN OP", just about any intelligent player will agree nerfing marauders would completely and totally demolish terran. I'm sorry you just run into seige tanks and die but try...not doing that? Again you are blowing this way out of proportion, terran has a SLIGHT advantage over zerg that helps them at the highest level of play, and thats only for now. Zergs will adapt and figure out what to do and I even bet some day soon people will be going "OMG ZERG POWERFUL NERF NERF" because honestly that is what people do. At least Geno is making a decent arguement based on real discussion and not "my race is so good but I lose, but its ok its just underpowered!". I feel that a lot of what Geno is saying about the zerg having to get their expansions up (while I also think if you do it right 1 base play is not really that bad) will be fixed by the reaper nerf. You will also notice that the 3 harassing units for Terran are just harassing units, helions and reapers have no real place in normal play, and unless you are trying 1/1/2 or something banshees do not either. Zerg does not have that problem, every one of their units has a place and a build to make it work. I feel that this should give terran the harassing advantage if they have so many units dedicated to it.

Also lol at dropping not viable. You say it leaves you open to a counterattack, which is true, but those overpowered tanks you are qqing about are very slow at counterattacking which gives you plenty of time to rebuild and figure out a defense.

Also you should probably stop saying retarded blanket statements like Terran is overpowered. TvP is amazingly balanced at this point in the game, TvZ is a small bit unbalanced due to early reaper aggression, this does not make a race overpowered. The game has been out for one month and strategies keep changing and will evolve. So far Starcraft 2 has been probably one of the most balanced games ever created right behind Starcraft 1.

The final note, Zealots are receiving a nerf bat too, does that mean they are overpowered in high level play? They even said that the reasoning behind the tank nerf was its use in all levels of play, meaning they aren't just focusing on high level players and going "Oh so its overpowered here" they are looking at everything.

Edit: And your talk of the terran players making mistakes? Every player makes mistakes, boxer makes mistakes, idrA makes mistakes, that's how the game actually ends because you can't be perfect at everything. Maybe you thought that countering while that nydus was popping up in your base was a good idea at the time, but it wasn't, this shit does happen in every single game.