So Square might have trolled the world.

[Charismatic]

meant to be played

Stupidest thing I've read in awhile.
Why not play the game the way you want to play it rather than that way it's 'meant to be played'?

If you didn't like gambits, why did you use them?
It takes far less effort to turn them off than to set them up (which you must do on your own, you are not forced to) and turn them on.

[Komm Suesser Tod]

Stupidest thing I've read in awhile.
Why not play the game the way you want to play it rather than that way it's 'meant to be played'?

If you didn't like gambits, why did you use them?
It takes far less effort to turn them off than to set them up (which you must do on your own, you are not forced to) and turn them on.

After a while, I just stopped playing the game. The gambits made the game rather bland, and I found playing the game without them to be not be much fun either. Of the two options presented, neither was appealing. That is my problem with the game.

[Charismatic]

I take it you don't like Final Fantasy games in general then.
(take away gambits and the core gameplay is the same as the other games, lol)

[Kaylia]

So, what gambit allowed your character to run around and avoid AoE, to stay away from each other, to kite the mobs, to resurect your character at the right time?

Saying the game play itself is like saying WC3 battle play themselves because your unit have autocast, when in fact, there is still a lot of micro management to do.

[Komm Suesser Tod]

I take it you don't like Final Fantasy games in general then.
(take away gambits and the core gameplay is the same as the other games, lol)

Actually, I loved a lot of the earlier games, up to about VII when the series started to become less and less dependable. I liked most of VIII, the story was an issue though, IX's system was cool, but yet again the story was hit or miss, and the main character's monkey tail sort of bumped me. X was interesting, but yet again, the story was an issue, but the game play was pretty solid.

I prefer the older styles of RPGs, where you line up on one side, have turns, choose individual attacks like most of the FFs up until XII. In my opinion, XII tried to be departure from the traditional form and didn't get far enough away. It changed how you explored, how you fought battles, encountered enemies, regenerated MP, and a lot of other things, but it wasn't different enough. It was somewhere in the middle, between the older style and a new unexplored generation of RPGs, and lacked any real identity as a game. You could either set up the game to play itself, or run around and switch between characters in a real time(ish) battle, which I didn't find to be very fun.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's the beginning of a new age in RPGs, a glorious culmination of all that came before it and the father to all that shall be. But that doesn't matter to me. I have problems with the game at it's core level, and I haven't heard any real arguments for it besides "Other games were broken too" and "You were just doing it wrong, you idiot."

Edit:

So, what gambit allowed your character to run around and avoid AoE, to stay away from each other, to kite the mobs, to resurect your character at the right time?

Saying the game play itself is like saying WC3 battle play themselves because your unit have autocast, when in fact, there is still a lot of micro management to do.

No, it's not.

So no, I had to run them around, but I don't really count that as participating. And if they did get caught in an AOE, they would heal each other. If one died, the others would raise it. If they were equipped with a bow, they would tend to stay away without me doing anything. If the enemy was flying and all a character had was a melee weapon, they could be made to use magic.

Being the navigator is far from being deeply involved.

[Charismatic]

"You were just doing it wrong, you idiot."

Well... to be fair, you were.

[Komm Suesser Tod]

Well... to be fair, you were.

How? The game designers set up two ways to play, roughly, although it could be argued that there were varying degrees of gambit use. Neither was really enjoyable, and one of the ways made it so you had very minimal responsibility or effort required for most encounters in the game.

It was a major part of the game's core mechanics. There were gambit shops in most towns, and the game in fact showcased the system as revolutionary.

Also, if you think that you should only have to really be involved for boss fights, fine. Why don't we just do away with any enemy that isn't a boss or unique enemy with special abilities? Get rid of levels, and just have it be a string of cut scenes and boss fights.

My point is that the older systems worked fine, and other RPGs on current gen systems have had games in that vein, like Lost Odyssey, that hold to the classic staples while adding new layers of complexity and involvement and their own new mechanics. I feel that XII was a poor attempt to make a new style of RPG that didn't really seem to work.

[Charismatic]

Gambits were not a major part of the game's core mechanics.
You could make that argument if they were required to play through the game. They were/are not.

[Exoduso]

Regardless, the story still sucked.

[Komm Suesser Tod]

Gambits were not a major part of the game's core mechanics.
You could make that argument if they were required to play through the game. They were/are not.

You seem to keep glossing over the point that not using them wasn't any fun either. Maybe you enjoyed it, fine, but that doesn't mean everyone else did. Instead of just saying that "You didn't have to use gambits, you could play without them" over and over, tell me why not using them improved the game in your opinion? Or did you like the gambit system, because I'd be willing to hear a defense of it that isn't that I didn't have to set them up to handle all of a characters actions.

The point I set out to make from the beginning is that you could make the game play itself, not through any sort of glitch, or exploit or turbo button controller, but only through the mechanics presented in the game, and using them only as they were intended to function, and I felt it was an issue with the game's core game play.

[Charismatic]

The reason I keep glossing over it is because I've had this argument a million times.
Not once has it actually turned out that the person actually tried playing the games without gambits or minimal use of them, people always say they tried it but end up PMing me later telling me how much more they are enjoying the game now that they've actually tried the game without heavy use of them.

Chances are pretty high that you're bullshitting based on experiences that I've had so far.


That aside, even if you DID try it the other way... wouldn't have made a difference. You'd already decided and were/are intent on believing that the gameplay is bad (when it's so damn similar to the other games, with some pretty cool differences[though few]) that there's no way you could possibly enjoy it anyway.

[Komm Suesser Tod]

The reason I keep glossing over it is because I've had this argument a million times.
Not once has it actually turned out that the person actually tried playing the games without gambits or minimal use of them, people always say they tried it but end up PMing me later telling me how much more they are enjoying the game now that they've actually tried the game without heavy use of them.

Chances are pretty high that you're bullshitting based on experiences that I've had so far.

Ok, fine, I'm a huge lying douche bag. Cool. Let's just go with that.

Let's just, for one minute, propose a hypothetical reality where an alternate me is less of a douche, and actually tried to play the game with and without gambits, and still quit without finishing it.

What would you say to douche-zarro me?

[Charismatic]

Probably that the game just isn't for you.
Oh well (though I'm unsure of how you could really not enjoy it at all while the gameplay is not all that far off from the previous entries)

[Komm Suesser Tod]

Probably that the game just isn't for you.
Oh well (though I'm unsure of how you could really not enjoy it at all while the gameplay is not all that far off from the previous entries)

But it is different. I liked encounters taking place in whatever unreachable demi-plane they seemed to take place in where nothing else could touch you. I like lining up and choosing my actions one at a time, waiting for actions to refill, or even setting up all my actions at a time and everyone acting in some sort of initiative or speed order. Compared to that aspect of combat, XII is wildly different.

And maybe XII is just your kind of game. There seems to be plenty of people on either side saying that the game is both good and bad, and even then ranging from one extreme to the other, that it was the best thing that could happen to RPGs, or that it sucked shit through a cock.

I would honestly like to hear if you find the changes to be an improvement over the previous entries, and why.

Also, if the gambits weren't meant to be used, weren't at least a decent sized chunk of the combat mechanics, why were they there at all, and why were there so many damned options if they should only be used for managing minor abilities?

[miokomioko]

Stop playing a game you don't like while simultaneously trying to discredit it for things that don't seem to bother others?

Also, the Lhusu Mines skeletons don't spawn endlessly. There's only one place in the game where that can happen and it's only from a Rare Game raising zombies as you fight him and to take advantage of it involves a very specific weapon/gambit organization to make it happen.

Just make some gambits for some of the actions you don't want to have to be bothered with. It's as simple as that. Quit with the contrived complaints about a system existing to allow you to remove tedious activities out of battle. I wasn't big on gambits either and I barely used them outside of curing status effects (which is something tedious I don't like to be bothered with, as it involves scouring through a big list of spells to find the right one). The only time I found them necessary was for big deal boss fights and Mark hunts.

Almost all RPGs can just be grinded and made easy, people bitch about that even though that's there own doing. Any part in an RPG that disregards your level and requires strategically setting up options/commands (gambits!), there exists guides that spell it all out and people use them and complain shit is too easy. Play any RPG without looking at a damn guide and without grinding your levels up, and it will probably be semi challenging and much more satisfying.

[Charismatic]

First: I never said gambits weren't meant to be used. Use them if you like to, if you don't like to use them... don't. The choice is yours, don't complain (attempting to discredit the game in the process) about a bad choice you made when you didn't have to though, that's fucking stupid.

Second: The changes I find to be an improvement are certainly that the combat can be conducted in real-time when the battle mode is set to active. I've always preferred real-time combat in RPGs which is part of why Final Fantasy is one of my least favorite series overall.
Also, the fact that your position matters on the battlefield is actually pretty damn nice. I mean, more than front/back row shit. Makes the battles a little bit more involved and strategic since you can kite enemies and use other tactics that were previously unavailable to you in the other entries.

Other than that combat was largely the same as the other games, not really much else to say.

[Kaylia]

No, it's not.

So no, I had to run them around, but I don't really count that as participating. And if they did get caught in an AOE, they would heal each other. If one died, the others would raise it. If they were equipped with a bow, they would tend to stay away without me doing anything. If the enemy was flying and all a character had was a melee weapon, they could be made to use magic.

Being the navigator is far from being deeply involved.

Well, I guess I'm just dumb then. I can program AI that play chess, but I'm not smart enough to program a 7 lines gambit to save my ass in every situation I encountered in FFXIV.

I dare you to try the game again and post a gambit that can beat every boss/hunts at normal level (same level as the boss you're fighting) using normal weapon. Of course, you will continue arguing that gambit do everything, but at this point, you're just bullshitting over something you probably played 5 hours.

Also, the Lhusu Mines skeletons don't spawn endlessly. There's only one place in the game where that can happen and it's only from a Rare Game raising zombies as you fight him and to take advantage of it involves a very specific weapon/gambit organization to make it happen.

What was the odd he fell asleep at that point with this specific gambit.

[Komm Suesser Tod]

And why wouldn't it be?
No one can ever come up with a clear-cut argument that makes sense as to why it isn't a good game.
Everyone's arguments basically end up boiling down to "it was different so I didn't like it"

My problem with 12 was always that Vaan is a spectator. If they hadn't tried to go in two directions (political drama AND high fantasy save the world romp), it could have been a lot cleaner. Vaan does nothing in the -story- after the prologue. If Ashe had been the main character from the beginning, there could have been a more direct political story -- you, playing from the perspective of someone actually in a position to deal with the major forces at play. There could still have been the Fantasy elements, I thought the Occuria were an interesting idea (even the corrupted one; hell, that gave us possibly the best character, Evil Cid). If you're going to make a Luke Skywalker character, you have to give him a Darth Vader -- Vaan has nothing like that, nothing to keep him attatched to the story except tagging along (even Penelo has the little Arcadian prince as a friend to keep her involved). The game had its moments, but the focus was fucked from the get-go.

How does anyone even praise FFXII's story-line? The majority of characters were cardboard cut-out builds of a stereotype that can be easily interchanged with one another. A plot fails horribly when you root for the antagonist more then you do your own characters in my opinion.

Except you'd be hard pressed to discuss that with FFXII story fans claiming nostalgia as their number one argument against prior FF's.

XII tried to be departure from the traditional form and didn't get far enough away. It changed how you explored, how you fought battles, encountered enemies, regenerated MP, and a lot of other things, but it wasn't different enough. It was somewhere in the middle, between the older style and a new unexplored generation of RPGs, and lacked any real identity as a game.

I think that is a pretty decent argument for the perceived failings of the game.

[Komm Suesser Tod]

Well, I guess I'm just dumb then. I can program AI that play chess, but I'm not smart enough to program a 7 lines gambit to save my ass in every situation I encountered in FFXIV.

I dare you to try the game again and post a gambit that can beat every boss/hunts at normal level (same level as the boss you're fighting) using normal weapon. Of course, you will continue arguing that gambit do everything, but at this point, you're just bullshitting over something you probably played 5 hours.


What was the odd he fell asleep at that point with this specific gambit.

Did I say that it worked for every fight, ever? No, I said the majority of the game could be managed by a set of gambits on every character. Optional bosses, hunts, and bosses that couldn't be beat with said gambits would probably make up a rather small percentages of the fights that took place in that game if you look at all of the numbers.

And another thing, when did I mention having any specific gambits set up for the skeletons? Maybe it doesn't spawn them infinitely, but 50<infinity.

I played more than 5 hours. I went and found a walk through and tried to find about where I stopped playing. I'm pretty sure I made it to Archades, right before the fight with Cid. Then I just stopped playing.

[Mayareira]

Hmm now he bounced from battle system to story elements. Fuck I'm late to the dancing party.