So Square might have trolled the world.

**Darus Grey** · 2010-02-20 18:21

Originally Posted by Exoduso

It's a pretty damn long dream for a guy that just got an icicle go in and out of his chest, and is rapidly falling to the floor from pretty high up...

just saying..

edit: and yeah, talk about a vivid imagination... he dreams in his dream too, since he dreams about laguna as well.

I once had a dream where I lived an entire guys life, woke up, and had an identity crisis. It's not even uncommon for this to happen, and is infact a trope in and of itself(see: STNG when picard lives some alien dudes entire life and then wakes up).

Time does not exist in your mind, and you can have a lifetime of experience compressed very easily.

Just saying that "It's a long dream" really has no merit as a counter-argument, since these kind of things happen to us in the real world, let alone fantasy ones.

**Exoduso** · 2010-02-20 18:30

Originally Posted by Darus Grey

I once had a dream where I lived an entire guys life, woke up, and had an identity crisis. It's not even uncommon for this to happen, and is infact a trope in and of itself(see: STNG when picard lives some alien dudes entire life and then wakes up).

Time does not exist in your mind, and you can have a lifetime of experience compressed very easily.

Just saying that "It's a long dream" really has no merit as a counter-argument, since these kind of things happen to us in the real world, let alone fantasy ones.

And you don't think that the writers could have at least provided some clues for us along the way to let us know that something like this was going on? I would expect some tiny details along the way that would gradually reveal themselves. The ending, if anything, should have concluded that part with some sort of funeral or what have you; instead, you see Squall until the very end. That part simply does not make sense to me, because if they really wanted you to experience Squall's mind's manifestations, they could have done a way better job at showing you that something happened along the way.

With that said, why is it that FF8 has so many theories regarding its story? Because the script wasn't that clear to begin with, on many levels. If Squall died, everything that happens post-CD1 makes complete sense; but if he didn't, what the hell was up with Ultimecia popping into the story out of thin air? Or her summoning of Griever? or a million other different things. But if I am to agree with this theory about Squall's death, I need more than the dull reasons that are provided on that website, because they simply don't say that much and could all be pure coincidence that some guy just happened to pick out of the entire game's storyline and then proceeded to put those dots together, hoping that he makes something coherent out of it all.

**Qalbert** · 2010-02-20 18:30

^I tend to psych myself out with that sort of shit. Like what if this is all a dream, and the no reading in dreams rule is merely an artifact of my psyche trying to convince myself of the reality of the construct. Go go existential quandary.

**Darus Grey** · 2010-02-20 18:42

Originally Posted by Qalbert

^I tend to psych myself out with that sort of shit. Like what if this is all a dream, and the no reading in dreams rule is merely an artifact of my psyche trying to convince myself of the reality of the construct. Go go existential quandary.

"No reading in a dream" is a myth in and of itself. It's true that some people can't because it's in a different hemisphere, but the brain is pretty elastic and doesn't have many areas of defined use... i.e. where you read can be in the left or right side, front or back, etc, and not being able to read is the exception rather than the rule when your brain physiology just prevents it.

Originally Posted by Exoduso

And you don't think that the writers could have at least provided some clues for us along the way to let us know that something like this was going on? I would expect some tiny details along the way that would gradually reveal themselves. The ending, if anything, should have concluded that part with some sort of funeral or what have you; instead, you see Squall until the very end. That part simply does not make sense to me, because if they really wanted you to experience Squall's mind's manifestations, they could have done a way better job at showing you that something happened along the way.

With that said, why is it that FF8 has so many theories regarding its story? Because the script wasn't that clear to begin with, on many levels. If Squall died, everything that happens post-CD1 makes complete sense; but if he didn't, what the hell was up with Ultimecia popping into the story out of thin air? Or her summoning of Griever? or a million other different things. But if I am to agree with this theory about Squall's death, I need more than the dull reasons that are provided on that website, because they simply don't say that much and could all be pure coincidence that some guy just happened to pick out of the entire game's storyline and then proceeded to put those dots together, hoping that he makes something coherent out of it all.

Total Recall, etc. Sometimes the mindfuck IS the intention, and alluding to it just ruins it.

Like I said, the writers aren't telling us what their intentions were, so we simply don't know. I'm inclined to believe that it really was just bad writing(Occam's razor), but hey...even if that's true, believing this is true turns a pile of shit into a beautiful story, and is worthwhile in that right alone, it's part of what makes literary interpretation appealing.

Curious, does anyone know if the Japanese version make anymore sense? I've never seen that brought up in the FF8 discussion ever, and am tempted to play it now just to compare story elements and word usage.

**Xno Kappa** · 2010-02-20 18:57

Might as well play Xenogears if I wanted to confuse myself with existentialism.

**Exoduso** · 2010-02-20 19:18

Originally Posted by Darus Grey

Total Recall, etc. Sometimes the mindfuck IS the intention, and alluding to it just ruins it.

Like I said, the writers aren't telling us what their intentions were, so we simply don't know. I'm inclined to believe that it really was just bad writing(Occam's razor), but hey...even if that's true, believing this is true turns a pile of shit into a beautiful story, and is worthwhile in that right alone, it's part of what makes literary interpretation appealing.

And perhaps it is, but I still would've appreciated a scene at the end letting me know who's who. That website is right about one thing, and is the many different elements that the last 3 discs play that are so out of touch with the first disc... could it simply be the bad writing? or is there something else that can account to those god-awful twists (like NORG and the garden, Ultimecia coming out of nowhere, monsters coming out of the moon to attack Esthar, Rinoa's possession by Ultimecia, and many other elements..) If I accept the fact that it's all a fabrication of Squall's mind, I can let those pass, but then again some things in CD1 still don't make sense...
for example, Squall's true relation to Laguna and the reason they were having a recollection of his team's experiences (as if they were actually there, too..). If Squall really did die at the end of CD1, and the rest of the story is completely unrealistic and comes directly out of his mind's desires, then why did they have those experiences in CD1? If Laguna is not Squall's father, then there is something else that is missing from the story to fully allow you to understand the extent of Squall and Laguna's true relationship (which is, according to this theory, a fabrication of Squall's mind during his final moments..)

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-20 19:27

Originally Posted by Zealot

Change of topic: So how about Final Fantasy VI and the retardedly depressing lives of every single character in it?

Gogo seemed pretty happy. Maybe Mog don't remember his backstory that well. And Umaro is probably to stupid to be depressed for long.

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-20 19:33

Originally Posted by Zealot

Gogo: However happy he/she/it seemed, you find the Mime inside the belly of a Sandworm. Couldn't have been all that thrilled.

Mog: Entire species eradicated by the disaster.

Umaro: Basically a slave.

Damn. Hmm. Relm? She might have been depressed... umm.. ok so maybe EVERYONE'S lives suck. Sabin might have been the least depressed.. Or at least I can't remember why he was.

**Xno Kappa** · 2010-02-20 19:46

Sabin was pretty emo for a minute when he had to kill the son of his master. Shadow was the least depressing, he really didn't give a shit about much.

**Weltall** · 2010-02-20 19:49

New =/= good

FF12 just blew dick.

**Qalbert** · 2010-02-20 19:56

don't seem to recall anyone here saying that a game being new gave it any merit.

**Xno Kappa** · 2010-02-20 19:58

Except you'd be hard pressed to discuss that with FFXII story fans claiming nostalgia as their number one argument against prior FF's.

**Mayareira** · 2010-02-20 20:23

It seems to me that prior FF fans are just as one-dimensional as Sephiroth.

**Qalbert** · 2010-02-20 20:25

It seems to me that at the end of the day its fucking video games and it doesn't matter for shit which ones a person prefers.

**Mayareira** · 2010-02-20 20:27

Originally Posted by Qalbert

It seems to me that at the end of the day its fucking video games and it doesn't matter for shit which ones a person prefers.

Which is what I said in my initial post. But christ, I don't see how its possible to interpret our argument as "New=good".

**Kerberoz** · 2010-02-20 20:33

Originally Posted by Mayareira

It seems to me that FF12 fans consider themselves complex, unique, and under-appreciated masterpieces, when in reality they're precisely like all the others, only more pretentious and boring.. just like the game.

http://www.manafont.org/0015/bale_fap.gif

**Qalbert** · 2010-02-20 20:38

Originally Posted by Mayareira

Which is what I said in my initial post. But christ, I don't see how its possible to interpret our argument as "New=good".

I agreed with you, welt was the one who seemed to think that was the argument

**Xno Kappa** · 2010-02-20 21:38

I think Sephiroth was a shallow empty character created through plot holes galore but also think that the FFXII story overall was garbage. What does that make me? For reference, I loved FFVIII, FFIX, FFIV and omgFFVI.

**Minions** · 2010-02-20 22:36

Originally Posted by Hirokei Kiaza

I think Sephiroth was a shallow empty character created through plot holes galore but also think that the FFXII story overall was garbage. What does that make me? For reference, I loved FFVIII, FFIX, FFIV and omgFFVI.

I think we have a winner

**BarthelloSylph** · 2010-02-20 22:53

Originally Posted by Qalbert

It seems to me that at the end of the day its fucking video games and it doesn't matter for shit which ones a person prefers.

This is the smartest thing I've read on the the internet today. Ironic that it comes in the dumbest thread I've seen this year.

Thread: So Square might have trolled the world.

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