Post Your Augmented Items V: Might As Well Be Random Fail

[noodles355]

You are acting like you start from 0 tp after every WS. Mnk and Thf both have a large vartiation in tp return on WS, even with capped accuracy.

There is no way to calculate or quantify how much damage you are going to take but its a fair assumption you will be taking some on a regular basis (not in any specific scenario but just as a blanket statement). This further varies the potential usefulness of adding small amounts of stp even if they don't change x hit build.

Your argument is basically focusing on the exceptions, not the main rule, or rather, why old ways of thinking dismissed 6hits as worthwhile for jobs like Drg because "you usually gain extra TP from taking hits and TP+ on jumps so will usually get a 6hit anyway".


If it doesn't change the number of punches to 100%TP, then how does it increase WS frequency?

Dual wielding, Hand-to-hand or single wielding, if STP+X doesn't change the number of hits needed to reach 100%TP, either from 0TP or off a multi-hit WS, then it is useless. I fail to see how you can argue otherwise.

[noodles355]

I am eagerly awaiting Pchan's retarded son to mature into something we can all hate almost as equally.

He's getting there, he's started replying with just "no" without any explanation.
Give him a few more days he'll be calling us iddle nerds ¿

[Miraun]

If it doesn't change the number of punches to 100%TP, then how does it increase WS frequency?

Dual wielding, Hand-to-hand or single wielding, if STP+X doesn't change the number of hits needed to reach 100%TP, either from 0TP or off a multi-hit WS, then it is useless. I fail to see how you can argue otherwise.

You're not incorrect, but you're still misinterpretation his statements:

Since you can have returns of (lets say) 5-15% TP on the Multi-hit 1H-WS, it's not always a consistent amount of STP needed to take 1 hit off of the build. Because of this, it's impossible to accurately measure an absolute number where it will cut 1 hit off of a build. Therefore, using STP in a TP build will improve the likelihood that regardless of whether you get 13% or 7% from the WS, it will remove 1 hit from your build.

[noodles355]

Dual wielding, Hand-to-hand or single wielding, if STP+X doesn't change the number of hits needed to reach 100%TP, either from 0TP or off a multi-hit WS, then it is useless. I fail to see how you can argue otherwise.

.

[Miraun]

So, tell me exactly how much STP I should use when I get somewhere between 5-15% TP return on a WS to get -1 hit to my build.

Be a college drop-out like me

I'm with mdkuser

[Fottiti]

this makes 0 sense

It makes perfect sense you are just too stupid to comprehend it.

Your argument is basically focusing on the exceptions, not the main rule, or rather, why old ways of thinking dismissed 6hits as worthwhile for jobs like Drg because "you usually gain extra TP from taking hits and TP+ on jumps so will usually get a 6hit anyway".


If it doesn't change the number of punches to 100%TP, then how does it increase WS frequency?

Dual wielding, Hand-to-hand or single wielding, if STP+X doesn't change the number of hits needed to reach 100%TP, either from 0TP or off a multi-hit WS, then it is useless. I fail to see how you can argue otherwise.

Your arguement implies there is a normal model you can work from on a multi hit WS, but even if you miss 1 or 2 hits on asuran then it becomes possible for smaller amounts of stp to affect the number of punches back to 100. For thf its even more likely to have an impact because you have 2 weapons with different delays and a huge number of different combinations to getting 100tp.

I fail to see how you can't accept that varying tp returns alone is enough to make small amounts of stp have an impact on WS frequency. Your use of the word useless is either poor phrasing or down to you not actually having a clue what it means.

[Dooom]

Am I understanding this right, that the argument is "thf Ws have varying returns, so we can't say if the sTP will matter or not", and this then comes down to if you use it or not? Why not just make two TP macros so if you need the sTP 'cos of WS return you use Skadi, if you don't you use Homam/ASA legs? I'm not really following this argument, but that's how it seems to me.

[Demosthenes11]

It makes perfect sense you are just too stupid to comprehend it.

the ONLY use of stp is reducing the number of hits to 100 tp. If you are getting 99 tp in your build, and you add in 1 stp and are still getting 99 tp, that 1 stp is doing nothing.

Please refute that

[Darkslitter]

http://nsaney.com/pics/cripple_fight.jpg
just let em work it out robin.

[Dontkare]

Well, on topic I saw this today

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...507_124202.jpg

[mdkuser]

the ONLY use of stp is reducing the number of hits to 100 tp. If you are getting 99 tp in your build, and you add in 1 stp and are still getting 99 tp, that 1 stp is doing nothing.

Please refute that

your example is quite irrelevant, because if those 1 store tp give you +0.1 tp per hit, then they will add up in the end to more than one TP, and give you 100.. as long as you need more than 10 hit to reach 100 which is the case for mnk, thf, nin, war/nin..


The point he is making, again, is that reasonning in terms in hits till 100 is stupid for multi hit jobs, because the same number of hits could lead to 10 rounds ( bad luck) or 4 rounds ( good luck)... and it's the number of rounds needed to reach 100 tp that matters, when you calculate WS frequency ( = time delay until WS).

Now if you want real numbers, here goes: full usukane monk using 19 stp on melee ( brutal rajas), 12 on ws, with destroyers. monk/nin with 15% kick attack rate, and 95% accuracy. after considering all possible sequences of double attacks and kick attacks, and possible tp returns from asuran fists, you get an average number of rounds till 100 TP of:

7.364520 ( ive got a formula)

if you add one more store tp on you melee build ( 20 stp), one stp did nothing, simply because it does not change the TP you get per fist ( this is a coincidence): still 4.8/fist

7.364520


now if you use the carapace gorget ( or white thaltum)

7.019792 rounds: 2 stp saved you many attack rounds.

Improvements: 7.36/7.02=+4.8% ws damage. it is much more than +2% predicted because 21 stp is a special tier where the roundings and all the numbers work well together to "double up" the effect of store tp.

now look at another case: 25% haste old school monk with mediocre store tp build: only brutal earring, no rajas: 1 stp during melee, zero during ws.

8.76 rounds till 100 TP.

Ungimp him and give him rajas:

8.30 rounds.

improvement: 8.76/8.3=+5.6% ws dmg.

There are special stp Tiers where stp does nothing because it doesn't modify your TP return ( e.g. 20 STP), but they are compensated by Tiers that give double up bonus: 21 stp.

the previous tier is is 16 store TP ( = full usu +brutal+white thaltum), this can also be computed: the jump from 14 to 16 store is +5% ish ws frequency also, while 14 >15 is nothing etc..

[Dooom]

Pics, all seen today.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2...leblowring.jpg

^ Also belongs in gimp thread? I think he does! Haven't seen subtle blow on a ring before, though.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3167/accorochi.jpg

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9571/accspinel.jpg

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4976/macccape.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2662/evaorochi.jpg

wtf at those Orochi Nodowas

[Darkmagi]

That drk has a acc + fast cast ACP body too :/

[Demosthenes11]

your example is quite irrelevant, because if those 1 store tp give you +0.1 tp per hit, then they will add up in the end to more than one TP, and give you 100.. as long as you need more than 10 hit to reach 100 which is the case for mnk, thf, nin, war/nin..


The he point is making, again, is that reasonning in terms in hits till 100 is stupid for multi hit jobs, because the same number of hits could lead to 10 rounds ( bad luck) or 4 rounds ( good luck)... and it's the number of rounds needed to reach 100 tp that matters, when you calculate WS frequency ( = time delay until WS).

Now if you want real numbers, here goes: full usukane monk using 19 stp on melee ( brutal rajas), 12 on ws, with destroyers. monk/nin with 15% kick attack rate, and 95% accuracy. after considering all possible sequences of double attacks and kick attacks, and possible tp returns from asuran fists, you get an average number of rounds till 100 TP of:

7.364520 ( ive got a formula)

if you add one more store tp on you melee build ( 20 stp), one stp did nothing, simply because it does not change the TP you get per fist ( this is a coincidence): still 4.8/fist

7.364520


now if you use the carapace gorget ( or white thaltum)

7.019792 rounds: 2 stp saved you many attack rounds.

Improvements: 7.36/7.02=+4.8% ws damage. it is much more than +2% predicted because 21 stp is a special tier where the roundings and all the numbers work well together to "double up" the effect of store tp.

now look at another case: 25% haste old school monk with mediocre store tp build: only brutal earring, no rajas: 1 stp during melee, zero during ws.

8.76 rounds till 100 TP.

Ungimp him and give him rajas:

8.30 rounds.

improvement: 8.76/8.3=+5.6% ws dmg.

There are special stp Tiers where stp does nothing because it doesn't modify your TP return ( e.g. 20 STP), but they are compensated by Tiers that give double up bonus: 21 stp.

the previous tier is is 16 store TP ( = full usu +brutal+white thaltum), this can also be computed: the jump from 14 to 16 store is +5% ish ws frequency also, while 15 >16 is nothing etc..

im not disagreeing with you lol. reducing rounds/ws is basically the same as hits/ws, rounds are just in terms of average number of hits in a given round. bg, semantics, etc.

because of the variance in hits/round in comparison to 2handers, stp does less for 2handers though

[Fottiti]

If you aren't disagreeing then why are you posting. Also using an avergae number of attacks per round isn't suffient for calculating expected WS frequency increase, like Mdkuser said you need to consider every possible combination of attacks/per round to 100tp~ tp.

Yes stp only makes a difference if you get to 100tp in one less attack round, nobody said it didn't.

[Demosthenes11]

it only reduces the number of attack rounds because it reduces the number of hits needed to get to 100.

je
sus

[Fottiti]

it will certainly have an impact even if it doesn't change the number of punches you need to hit 100tp on ffcalculator.

je
sus indeed

Its so fucking obvious that it has no impact unless it lowers the number of rounds to 100tp, the point being made was that simply plugging in your delay/stp to the tp per hit equation is not suffient for 1 handed DDs.

[noodles355]

Am I understanding this right, that the argument is "thf Ws have varying returns, so we can't say if the sTP will matter or not", and this then comes down to if you use it or not? Why not just make two TP macros so if you need the sTP 'cos of WS return you use Skadi, if you don't you use Homam/ASA legs? I'm not really following this argument, but that's how it seems to me.

Its not that simple.
Well it is for skadi, as I said above, skadi will always save at least one hit off your climb to 100% TP on any dagger combo after any WS TP return. You are right, you can make two TP macros and use either depending on what TP you start with after WS, however it isn't as simple as "If over 12TP, use set 2" or whatever, you'll see why below, there's only specific TP amounts where 1STP does anything.


My problem is with mdkuser's way of calulating it. I have said all along "If STP doesn't save you a hit, it does nothing". This is now, and forever true. For example, as you'll see below, adding +1STP, going from 14>15STP does not change your rounds to 100 in any instance, so in this case does exactly nothing.

I don't like the idea of calulating it as 8.76 or 8.3 rounds for the simple reasoning of "you can't punch someone 8.3 times".

More importantly, it is just not accurate, I will give an example:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...355/tptbl1.gif
This shows the hits needed for 100%TP after each possible WS combination for Dancing Edge, using values of STP+1 starting at 13 (skadi/rajas/brutal)

If we simply divide them by each other, at every starting TP, adding +1STP gives an increase of 2% > 0% > 2% in going to 14, 15 and 16STP.
This is the method you are using, and it is WRONG.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...355/tptbl2.gif
This second table shows the actual rounds, not silly calulated decimals.
Here we can see in going ffrom 13>14STP, you save one hit twice, for 5.6 and 5.9% increase respectfully, overall then that is 1.64% increase.
At 14>15, it is 0%, obviously. At 15>16, it is 5.9 in one instance, or on average 0.84% increase.

So that's 1.64% > 0% > 0.84% increases, NOT 2% > 0% > 2%.

Except, because you're dual wielding and saving one hit, not one attack round, those hits saved will only happen half of the time, so the actual increases to WS frequency is 0.82%STP going from 13>14 and 0.42 going from 15>16STP.

So whilst you would calulate the increase in WS frequency in 13>14STP & 15>16STP in TP after dancing edge as 2% increase both times, they are actually closer to 0.82 and 0.42 respectively.

Store TP shouldn't be looked at as "It will always increase your TP gain on average" with DW/H2H jobs. If you want to compare the DoT increase of STP on an equipment vs other stats, you should look at:
If it can save a round at all
If it can, how many times out of possible scenarios it will
The % increase for each case
And the total average increase to WS frequency through all those points

So in my example, adding 1 or 2 STP (one of Ecphoria, wtath, aug gorget, chiv) would be an average increase of 0.82% to WS frequency, for thf at a 60TP/40WS split that's a total of 0.34% increase to DoT. In the case of Btath vs Wtath (pretend thf can't use bomblet/core) that's less of a boost than btath's 4Attack (about 0.48% to DPS @500>504 att on a lolibri).

[HKR]

lot's of spergin going on in dis thread.

[Sudox]

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4453/dmg1hagun.png