PLD Gear Discussion

[Oulanbator]

I see some people mentioned spellcast. I always thought SC was a terrible tool for tank classes because it doesn't allow to manually trigger gear swaps. For example, shadows goes down, you swap to PDT gear. Aga spell is cast on you, you swap to MDT gear. Can you do this basic stuff with SC on ?
SC also automatically triggers gear swaps which can be annoying when you don't want to (like stay in mdt gear and start casting ichi for when the -gaIII lands).

So, do you have a trick to make SW a good tool ? Or is it better not to use it to be at least decent tank ?

[Gustave]

I see some people mentioned spellcast. I always thought SC was a terrible tool for tank classes because it doesn't allow to manually trigger gear swaps. For example, shadows goes down, you swap to PDT gear. Aga spell is cast on you, you swap to MDT gear. Can you do this basic stuff with SC on ?
SC also automatically triggers gear swaps which can be annoying when you don't want to (like stay in mdt gear and start casting ichi for when the -gaIII lands).

So, do you have a trick to make SW a good tool ? Or is it better not to use it to be at least decent tank ?

//sc set mdt
//sc set pdt
or you can //cure4 oula for quick ally cures.

[Kaeko]

I see some people mentioned spellcast. I always thought SC was a terrible tool for tank classes because it doesn't allow to manually trigger gear swaps. For example, shadows goes down, you swap to PDT gear. Aga spell is cast on you, you swap to MDT gear. Can you do this basic stuff with SC on ?
SC also automatically triggers gear swaps which can be annoying when you don't want to (like stay in mdt gear and start casting ichi for when the -gaIII lands).

So, do you have a trick to make SW a good tool ? Or is it better not to use it to be at least decent tank ?

You can still manually trigger any swap you like. Spellcast works when you attempt to use any sort of "action", and if you attempt to perform another action while it's still running through the first, it overrides the first and starts the second. For example, Say you cast Utsusemi:Ichi, SC swaps you to whatever set you have defaulted. If you immediately press for another set it'll put you into what you like. It is slightly annoying in this method because you are in an unwanted set for half a second but it isn't too bad.

A second method is to use a gear lock method. For instance, say you have a MDT% set and you want to hold this set regardless of any actions until you specify (this is really what you want right?). You set a global check on all your spellcast actions that says "if X piece of gear is on, lock all my current gear". This will prevent any unwanted swaps. You can "exit" your MDT% gear manually with a separate macro easily.

[FailureMidgard]

I see some people mentioned spellcast. I always thought SC was a terrible tool for tank classes because it doesn't allow to manually trigger gear swaps. For example, shadows goes down, you swap to PDT gear. Aga spell is cast on you, you swap to MDT gear. Can you do this basic stuff with SC on ?
SC also automatically triggers gear swaps which can be annoying when you don't want to (like stay in mdt gear and start casting ichi for when the -gaIII lands).

So, do you have a trick to make SW a good tool ? Or is it better not to use it to be at least decent tank ?

There's literally tons of ways around this. Kaeko mentioned some, you can also use /raw to make any macro you want completely ignore spellcast. Want an Ichi macro that leaves your current set on? put /raw in the command line. You could even put //sc set MDT on the next line and equip full MDT if it wasn't already on. You can also use different groups, if you know a fight is more MDT based...whereas without spellcast, you likely have to make a completely different macrobook, spellcast lets you use the same ones. You can also use variables to control what goes on (automated, or manual). For example, whenever you load spellcast, you can set a variable to 0. Whenever you cast Stun as say nin/drk, you can check the variable, if it's 0-1, cast it in full enmity, if it's 2+, cast it in haste+enmity, and just add 1 to the variable each time you cast stun. Granted, you can do this manually via spellcast, or without spellcast, just to spike a little more hate at the start, but spellcast can completely automate that, if you so desire (and again, it's just an option). You can lock gear when you activate convert so you don't blow the extra MP from your convert set, etc.

Spellcast can do anything and everything you can do without it - it's just a matter of setting it up right. Also, you can make spellcast have a different idle set based on buffs. I automatically put on Ace's when blinded, not just after WS/etc, but I have 1 macro that equips the proper idle set - HighAcc, Standard, Disengaged, or Aftermath. You could do this on paladin as well to the point you have a different idle with shadows up, sentinel up, invincible up, shadows down, based on current HP, engaged or not, etc. How many macros would it take you to do that otherwise?

TLDR: Spellcast is as powerful as the person writing the file wants it to be. I will concede that a lot of people use it with very basic rules, and perhaps get less out of it than if they did it manually. But anything you can do manually, spellcast can do as well, basically. A mix of the 2 is always going to best, however.

[vagus]

For Cure IV cheat, it's possible to do it without swapping gear that causes you to blink. Being a whm i hate when tanks constantly blink, but i'm sure that's for another topic.

I don't use an idle set, but after this topic i'm considering it. More posts of idle sets would be greatly appreciated.

[Dramafinderftw]

For Cure IV cheat, it's possible to do it without swapping gear that causes you to blink. Being a whm i hate when tanks constantly blink, but i'm sure that's for another topic.

I don't use an idle set, but after this topic i'm considering it. More posts of idle sets would be greatly appreciated.

Blinkmenot says hello

[Gustave]

Not to turn this into a spellcast debate but there is gear I wouldn't keep in my inv if not for spellcast. Hospitaler/ Gaurdian's earring etc...

Also I need to go back and modify my spellcast for buff active: reprisal , march/ballad and march/march. I haven't gotten around to do any testing of my own other then eye balling but I'm considering going SIR > -phys > shield > haste on Ichi's with reprisal up. Of course precast in fastcast.

[Yarko]

Just curious ive seen the ss's of you tanking cerb/di and was impressed, do you have any from tanking khim with something other then smn onry dd?

What are SMN DDs ? Lol, we always use melee DDs for it, I'm not sure what you're looking for but here are 2 of the last interesting screens of Khim I could find.

3man Khim till 70% (dots onry, lol) then more people joined
http://i47.tinypic.com/auo8o.png

other khim
http://i45.tinypic.com/2cxurnm.png
note: I don't have shadow ring, that's MDT set + stoneskin

[*Blaize*]

For Cure IV cheat, it's possible to do it without swapping gear that causes you to blink. Being a whm i hate when tanks constantly blink, but i'm sure that's for another topic.

I don't use an idle set, but after this topic i'm considering it. More posts of idle sets would be greatly appreciated.

This is mine, no blinks, 394HP

input /ma "Cure IV" <me>
input /equip ring1 "Ether Ring"
input /equip ring2 "Serket Ring"
input /equip back "Settler's Cape"
input /equip neck "Morgana's Choker"
input /equip ear2 "Hospitaler Earring"
wait 1.5
input /equip back "Gigant Mantle"
input /equip waist "Trance Belt"
input /equip ring1 "Bomb Queen Ring"
input /equip ring2 "Bloodbead Ring"
input /equip neck "Ritter Gorget"

[thetruepandagod]

What are SMN DDs ? Lol, we always use melee DDs for it, I'm not sure what you're looking for but here are 2 of the last interesting screens of Khim I could find.

3man Khim till 70% (dots onry, lol) then more people joined
http://i47.tinypic.com/auo8o.png

other khim
http://i45.tinypic.com/2cxurnm.png
note: I don't have shadow ring, that's MDT set + stoneskin

Was mainly curious about seeing a tourbillion hit you with no shadows and also how well you do with maybe 4-6 rng's going all out in terms of hate control

[Gustave]

I watched a mnk/nin tank khim with a brd and whm until around 70%... the first troubillion took him out. Not directing that at rdm tanking but khim is tame if you dont let all your debuffs wear off at same time. I'm guessing you iddle in mdt on khim? Do you macro in mdt when you see him charge?

[Yarko]

Not that I really think this is the thread for it(given that its specifically about optimizing paladin), but neither of the two really belong on most targets. RDM/NIN for things that simply can't be effectively damaged(DI, etc.), DRK/NIN for moderately dangerous things that can be damaged(Tiamat, etc.), WAR or SAM for shit so stupidly easy that an EXP party could kill it(Faf, etc.)

Depends on the situation I guess, and what you mean with efficiency.
If you have the support for a DD tank and want the extra damage, sure, but if we're talking about tanking efficiency in terms of max survivability and max enmity, which really shines in low low man situations/holding with no elegy or slow, or when rushing to a HNM pop, DD tank isn't feasable/efficient.

Other example is HQ worm, RDM tank just pwns that bitch, and I don't think DD tank is feasable let alone efficient (phys absorb + gale pwnage).
http://i50.tinypic.com/vflat.png
7+1 (BLM mule) kill in 45mins with no problems at all, surely was one of my favourite accomplishments.

[Vorge]

So I think this thread has a lot of potential for good information if we can get away from the RDM vs DRK vs SAM vs PLD which I am not going to comment on because as a main paladin I'm definitely biased (but can see where other jobs definitely shine). With that out of the way I made a quick and dirty little image of my gear sets that I have been using recently and will try to go over why I use them. As a disclaimer I'm not a jaded paladin from the days of VIT and earth staves, before shield mastery and so on and so forth. So coming into the game a tad later than many on this forum I guess I was swept up in the "bandwagon" I suppose of Paladin, however as a lover of tanking classes in all the MMO's I've played I love the damn job.

http://i49.tinypic.com/10pccah.jpg

1) Image one is a standard TPing idle gear. 90% of what you'll tank regardless of HNM / Mini HNM / Whatnot this is a solid idle build. Maximizing haste and accuracy like any DD and of course hiding behind your shadows, Atonement has truly become one of the strongest assets of Paladin. However with a spellcast variable PCC become Parade and Haub becomes Ares when the variable is active and conditions of MP met, depending on if I find I need the MP or not, or if the fight is particularly annoying and I want to idle in Atonement/Mixed with Refresh. I will admit I was a Lamian +1 Paladin in Atonement TP for a long time, and I finally wised up and got a Goblin Cracker, I think it is a fantastic investment.

2) Max enmity. For JA's and Cures maximizing your enmity (in my opinion) is far more important than a bit of stoneskin from say Rampart, depending of course on the situation. I have a VIT heavy set for Rampart when that type of effect would benefit me, but generally in HNM situations you want the enmity and not really the stoneskin. This of course is from personal experience, this may vary! Hospitalier Earring and Light Obi swap in for cures on other players, Valor leggings for Sentinel and Fenian/Knight Ear/Valor Gloves for shield bash. Gear for Rampart swaps in generally when I'm soloing to augment the effect and not in an HNM situation.

3) Flash. For my flash set I focus completely on capping haste and filling in the remaining slots for enmity+. Many Paladins also have multiple sets for flash, myself being one of them. I have read a few Paladins like to forfeit Haste for Enmity early in a fight to get a bit more of a punch out of Flash and then go to a more standardized set focusing on recasts. I prefer the overall recast > enmity approach, and add in things like Neuvo and Loq. Earring when Sentinel is active early on, as Sentinel caps your enmity and thus opens up more slots for recast altering gear. I also have a variable for my Flash that removes haste if I have a two-bard party and receive double march. This, however, is very rare so I posted a standard set. In the case of two bards you can forfeit redundant haste for more enmity, if you reach the cap of course.

4) Ichi. I begin all rounds of casting Ichi in this gearset, and depending on how things turn out around the half way mark of the spell I force myself into full haste to push the recast of Ichi. I find this works very well around 75% of the time, but every once in a while I do mess up and wind up taking a hit to the face in low defense gear. Also there is still a decent amount of haste in this set so if you push your ichi to fully cast in this set you aren't too hard pressed on the cooldown, depending on the mob and debuffs. Also I prefer the Boxer's to my Shadow Mantle for this set, when trying to maximize shield skill I prefer adding shield rather than the 6ish% of a 0 hit. I may be incorrect in doing it this way but it works for me. I tend to keep my Shadow Mantle for PDT/Terror/No Shadows situations.

5->6) C4 Cheat. I try to leave enough room in my cheat so that Light Obi has the chance to do more self healing when the conditions are met. As far as I have always understood it 1hp cured is ~1 enmity worth of threat. In this set I try to end my cast in the highest possible combination of HP Cured and Enmity on gear. My C4 Cheat nets me 395 HP Cured without a weather/obi proc. I'm not sure why anyone would ever suggest a Paladin not invest in this type of a set. Regardless of the size of your group or the difficulty of the monster you're fighting free hate is free hate. Of course a Paladin should be watching the ally list and being ready to assist mages in curing the DDs that take damage and pull hate (and they will pull hate). In my opinion after the initial engage of cure cheating to push your ceiling up as high as you can cure cheating should only be done during times where a decent amount of time has gone by and you have not cured anyone. I generally push 45 seconds to a minute if MP allows before cure cheating myself if no one has taken damage.

Sets not mentioned: C3 Cheat / PDT / MDT / FIRE - all important sets ranging in situational use. I have gearsets for all of these but in my quick and dirty attempt to make a simplified gear set list I opted not to list them. They all build off commonly known pieces of gear and aren't really "Paladin Onry". Of course PDT and MDT are more important than Fire if your shell doesn't do Tiamat, and mixed sets depending on what you're fighting I find to be highly effective against a range of different HNM targets. My spellcast is cluttered with situation groups and sets all easily tossed together via macros or typed commands for when I need them. The more you tweak your spellcast the more you can really do with the job. One of these days I would really like to do a big gear post list but I am missing a few too many blue/white/normal boxes to really feel "finished" with my Paladin. I've fooled my LS into thinking I'm good at the job, so I get quite a few miles on it, and it (like anyone's favorite job I suppose) can always be upgraded.

I hope I didn't come off in a patronizing manner, I'm not much of a poster on forums however I'm always one to discuss anything dealing with Paladin. I fully admit there is definitely room to improve on the sets I have listed and have not listed, and am always open to shoot ideas back and forth.

Also a few parting notes on the posted sets. I know there is an ammo slot enmity item, and I've been looking for the HQ now that I use cracker in my ammo slot. I am also aware that if using my enmity cure set on myself there is a high chance that it won't fully cure for a full potency. I have ruled in place to replace pieces of Hydra with Iron Ram if not under a certain amount of HP. Quick and dirty, etc. I find Paladin to be a fascinating job due to such little tweaks and customizations, however perpetually 78/80 AND gear in my satchel is quite frustrating. Just my experiences with Paladin, I hope this helps to the overall discussion.

[Oulanbator]

Spellcast is as powerful as the person writing the file wants it to be. I will concede that a lot of people use it with very basic rules, and perhaps get less out of it than if they did it manually. But anything you can do manually, spellcast can do as well, basically. A mix of the 2 is always going to best, however.

Well, I made a really basic example (PDT) cause I don't think most people are able to do what you listed (I did most of this, didn't use /raw though).

The main issue with spellcast is controlling. You're stuck into your predefined situations, so you're limited. What happens when you get blinded right after shadows goes down while AM is up ? Sure you can set some priorities, or set some binds to cancel your predefined orders, but it pretty much defeats the purpose of automating stuff and if you reach a point where everything can be automated, what's the purpose of being behind the keyboard ?

[Yarko]

I watched a mnk/nin tank khim with a brd and whm until around 70%... the first troubillion took him out. Not directing that at rdm tanking but khim is tame if you dont let all your debuffs wear off at same time. I'm guessing you iddle in mdt on khim? Do you macro in mdt when you see him charge?

That trio had no elegy or es slow and lasted 1h or so, through tourbs and shit.
Nah I switch to MDT for dreadstorm (and fulm) and PDT for tourb. Thunderstrike is usually too fast and I don't switch in time, so that does 100-150 through stoneskin.
Can't find a screen right now of Tourb dmg, haven't screenshotted DMG taken in a while, but Tourb usually does 100-400 through stoneskin with 0-1 shadows. I did die to it once cause I was distracted emptying the dishwasher and didn't switch gear in time from phalanx casting gear D:.
And we've never brought that many DDs to Khim before as we usually lowman it, but I don't see why it would be a problem keeping hate seeing as DI is much more troublesome to keep capped enmity on, and it's still not difficult. Of course you can't keep it from bouncing back and forth if RNGs go all out and keep recapping enmity.

[FailureMidgard]

Well, I made a really basic example (PDT) cause I don't think most people are able to do what you listed (I did most of this, didn't use /raw though).

The main issue with spellcast is controlling. You're stuck into your predefined situations, so you're limited. What happens when you get blinded right after shadows goes down while AM is up ? Sure you can set some priorities, or set some binds to cancel your predefined orders, but it pretty much defeats the purpose of automating stuff and if you reach a point where everything can be automated, what's the purpose of being behind the keyboard ?

Hmm? I have 1 macro that equips the proper idle set for the situation. If statuses change, I hit it again and it re-corrects. If I wanted, I could setup autoexec to do it for me whenever I get blinded. For the record, on sam, I don't have rules for shadows down vs up, I manually hit PDT as needed, then rehit PDT after I WS (before the animation completes).

Anyway, it doesn't defeat the purpose to automate some things because you want an overwrite, the goal is to make the general as encompassing as possible, and then just overwrite the general swaps on the presumably rarer occasions that it is wrong. If you find that this is an incorrect statement, you likely set up your rules in an inverse manner to how you should have (or, were not detailed enough).

As far as you "may as well automate it all". You realize gear swaps in macros are the simplest form of automating it? If you want some pure reading of it, why automate that? Be truly hardcore, open your equipment menu and swap all your gear manually there. Yes, macros and spellcast both make it easier to play at a higher level, neither one just plays the game for you. I guarantee you that if you give an amazing spellcast to a bad player, they will still be a bad player.

Finally, again, you are not "stuck in predefined situations". First off, you can list as many situations as you want in the rules(making predefined situations cover virtually everything you do), and again, you still seem to be missing that I can have every single manual macro swap you have, and spellcast does -NOT- interfere. When I hit my PDT macro, I don't suddenly swap to my idle set. Yes, I'll swap after I use a spell/etc, but as far as I know, if you setup swaps at all, it's going to be the exact same. And if you make 2 macros for 1 spell, one that doesn't swap, as I said, you can make a /raw spell macro too.

[ZhiGaruda]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...self-cure4.png

Mine!

You know, if you were to swap to Aumoniere(+1) , you could use Valor Cape in place of Gigant for more +4/5 more enmity and no loss of HP D:

[Beave]

In regards to the Iron Ram set:

Good for enmity if no hydra, nice for MDB build if you have aegis / can cap MDT otherwise.

IMO, the Iron Ram set is good for anyone that can use it, because you can cap -MDT for less than 2m (which is why I think people should get excal > aegis ;D), and still be able to add the IR set for MDB.

This is coming from someone who used PDT/MDT/MDB sets on all of his jobs though.

[ZhiGaruda]

In regards to the Iron Ram set:



IMO, the Iron Ram set is good for anyone that can use it, because you can cap -MDT for less than 2m (which is why I think people should get excal > aegis ;D), and still be able to add the IR set for MDB.

This is coming from someone who used PDT/MDT/MDB sets on all of his jobs though.

This - and trust me, this is a long shot - may be why Derock said "can cap MDT otherwise".

Just an idea.

[PEIPld]

Any thoughts on use of Sentinel shield while /nin?
Someone posted Sentinel vs Koenig in the what's better thread and that got me wondering. Since everyone was busy discussing scythes for drk for the 1000th time this question kinda got ignored. This seems like a good thread to maybe discuss it...