Health Care Summit (Live Thread)

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Spoken like a true dipshit.

I imagine that there are millions of things you could be good at, or that you are very intelligent, but can you perform surgery on yourself? Fix your own car? Have you designed, built, and paid for your own house?

What the fuck does doing your taxes wrong have to do with intelligence and common sense?

Nothing. Just shut the fuck up.

Except he writes the tax laws, spoken like an ignorant dipshit.

[kuronosan]

Sorry, I cannot really allow myself to take anything that comes out of your mouth seriously.

You had me at "he writes tax laws and didnt do his taxes right so that means his opinion is invalid".

My statement of shut-the-fuck-uppery still stands.

[Not not Mattaru]

I'll try this one more time.

Environmental regulations regulate some activity that a person CHOOSES to engage in, your chimney sweeper/coal something example. They are only forced to to follow the regs if they engage in said activity. If they CHOOSE not to engage in the activity, they don't have to follow the regs.

Health insurance legislation says YOU MUST purchase health insurance. In our current situation no one MUST purchase health insurance.

Half the shit you posted was again pointless b/c you merely listed activities that are again, voluntary.

The voluntary shit is going to the hospital? Just checking if that is what you are talking about.

I'm saying whether or not you call it health insurance people must pay for it already. Because treatment that occurs is paid for by somebody. If you already have health insurance you pay for it in premiums, if you do not have it someone has to pay for it in taxes. Docs gotta get paid. DO YOU SEE WHERE I AM PUSHING YOU TOO?

Well obviously if you don't pollute, you don't have to stop your pollution. Sure, that is fine. But can you guarantee that you don't get sick? Riddle me this Nostradamus. You can try hard not too, but you can not guarantee it. Anyway, even if you don't have insurance and are not ever sick, you still technically pay for health care.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Uuggg...

Currently, you only have to pay for something if you engage in the activity. You don't have to pay for health insurance if you don't buy it. You don't have to pay for health care if you don't receive it.

The legislation would force you to engage in an activity. Its as simple as that. Congress has never had the power to force you to engage in an activity. Every example you have ever shown, a person chose to engage in an activity.

[Talint]

As I watch the press conferences of the Democrats and Republicans, I just want to say that I fucking hate talking points.

McConnell just cited a Gallup poll that says the majority of Americans (51-39 or something) are against the senate bill. But he doesn't explain why they're against the bill. Just that they are.

Shit's nuanced. And you can't fit nuance into a god damn talking point.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Uuggg...

Currently, you only have to pay for something if you engage in the activity. You don't have to pay for health insurance if you don't buy it. You don't have to pay for health care if you don't receive it.

How fucking retarded are you? You can't control 90% of the shit that forces you to need healthcare.

Jesus christ I really hope you hick motherfuckers try to rise up with your guns and flags and shit. Will be hilarious for sure.

[Necronus]

Uuggg...

Currently, you only have to pay for something if you engage in the activity. You don't have to pay for health insurance if you don't buy it. You don't have to pay for health care if you don't receive it.

The legislation would force you to engage in an activity. Its as simple as that. Congress has never had the power to force you to engage in an activity. Every example you have ever shown, a person chose to engage in an activity.

You seem to be forgetting cases like, I dunno .... uninsured/poor guy get shot ... uninsured/poor guy gets taken to hospital. Treatment is compulsory not deniable.

Example of someone "engaging in the activity" but then everyone else collectively paying for it.

So yes you "choose" to go to a doctor most of the time, but you don't choose to be affected by the ailment (usually?). You seem to say the act of going to a doctor is "engaging in the activity" ... I say the moment you get sick/injured is the "engaging in the activity"

[Zhais]

Uuggg...

Currently, you only have to pay for something if you engage in the activity. You don't have to pay for health insurance if you don't buy it. You don't have to pay for health care if you don't receive it.

The legislation would force you to engage in an activity. Its as simple as that. Congress has never had the power to force you to engage in an activity. Every example you have ever shown, a person chose to engage in an activity.

I'm forced to buy auto insurance. Fairly sure I know your response, but I'll just let you say it.

[Kerberoz]

Why do you even bother arguing with rednecks who see the world in black and white?

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

As I watch the press conferences of the Democrats and Republicans, I just want to say that I fucking hate talking points.

McConnell just cited a Gallup poll that says the majority of Americans (51-39 or something) are against the senate bill. But he doesn't explain why they're against the bill. Just that they are.

Shit's nuanced. And you can't fit nuance into a god damn talking point.

Yeah, because they use vague questions.

They don't ask: "If you are diagnosed with cancer, would you prefer a private health plan with a deductible and cap; or a government plan with no deductible or cap."

They do ask: "Do you support a government takeover of healthcare?"

It's retardedly nuanced and dishonest.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Why do you even bother arguing with rednecks who see the world in black and white?

It's not so much arguing as being emotionally abusive and pointing out their worthless contributions to society as often as I can.

[Necronus]

I'm forced to buy auto insurance. Fairly sure I know your response, but I'll just let you say it.

But you're not forced to drive. But since I assume you're only trying to draw out the other guy, I'll tell myself you are not actually making that point for real.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

But you're not forced to drive. But since I assume you're only trying to draw out the other guy, I'll tell myself you are not actually making that point for real.

But you're forced to live, and be healthy to live. So why should we pay for the right to be alive?

The point was valid. Your intelligence, however, is not.

[Not not Mattaru]

Uuggg...

Currently, you only have to pay for something if you engage in the activity. You don't have to pay for health insurance if you don't buy it. You don't have to pay for health care if you don't receive it.

The legislation would force you to engage in an activity. Its as simple as that. Congress has never had the power to force you to engage into an activity. Every example you have ever shown, a person chose to engage in an activity.

Um no. If I am having a heart attack, and my make believe daughter calls the hospital they have to treat me unless I am already dead (even then someone has to pay for that amber lamps! ... ambulance). If I'm uninsured the cost is shifted it does not go poof into thin air. Moreover, if I have no insurance and don't use health care, I technically still pay for health care because of taxes and cost shifting. That is the status quo.

I could never visit a hospital in my entire life and still pay for something I never use or choose to use. I could have a big fucking sign on me that says IF I AM DYING DONT TAKE ME TO THE HOSPITAL, I could still pay for something I never ever use. COST-SHIFTING, TAXES, these hospitals have to cover the cost somehow. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

So either we get to the nitty gritty on why you are a crackpot soon, or force is defined as mind control. Ok so really only one option is left.

[Necronus]

But you're forced to live, and be healthy to live. So why should we pay for the right to be alive?

The point was valid. Your intelligence, however, is not.

Someone HAS to pay. Unless you want doctors to work for free? Thats actually the fundamental point to insurance. Below all of the laws and the assholes running insurance corps that are only trying to make profit ... way way way below all of that clutter is the idea that shit happens and when shit happens there is a financial cost and to pay that cost why not collectively share the burden so that mere misfortune with health doesn't make my life an infinite pit of debt.

Thats why this issue isn't the same as making people buy GM cars.

Ideally, people running insurance people would all be moral saints. All insurance organizations would be non-profit, spend only what is required to keep the organization running, and push as much of the collected money back to the people. The key legitimate fear of people when it comes to government insurance is that one day they become the only option and become purely evil instead of benevelent.

[Beckwin]

All Americans must pay taxes even if they choose not to vote or not to use public services. Why? Because like it or not, we're all in this country together and in order for it to run, it costs money.

Even if you choose never to participate in healthcare, you would still pay a price: pain, shorterened life span, higher risk for disease, etc. Of course, most people participate in some form, even if it's just out of pocket. But even those out of pocket costs are driven up by those without plans and who do not pay ER charges.

YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT EITHER WAY. The only way no money changes hands is if you never ever get any medical care. Ever. And then, you pay a quality (and duration) of life cost.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Someone HAS to pay. Unless you want doctors to work for free? Thats actually the fundamental point to insurance. Below all of the laws and the assholes running insurance corps that are only trying to make profit ... way way way below all of that clutter is the idea that shit happens and when shit happens there is a financial cost and to pay that cost why not collectively share the burden so that mere misfortune with health doesn't make my life an infinite pit of debt.

Thats why this issue isn't the same as making people buy GM cars.

Do you know why we pay taxes? Don't we pay taxes to "collectively share the burden" for oh, roads, military, police, education etc. Why the fuck should health be for profit?

Doctors in countries that have social medicine live pretty fucking well. Not as well as American doctors that pitch shitty drugs for Big Pharma for incentives.. but I'm of a mind that life is a little bit more important than making sure a doctor can afford 5 cars and 4 houses.

[Not not Mattaru]

Do you know why we pay taxes? Don't we pay taxes to "collectively share the burden" for oh, roads, military, police, education etc. Why the fuck should health be for profit?

Doctors in countries that have social medicine live pretty fucking well. Not as well as American doctors that pitch shitty drugs for Big Pharma for incentives.. but I'm of a mind that life is a little bit more important than making sure a doctor can afford 5 cars and 4 houses.

I don't think Necronus is arguing against you in principle really. Maybe not going as far, but it seems that he is only making the point that someone pays for these things...

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Holy shit It's not that hard of a fucking concept.

If the hospital doesn't want to admit people in it's emergency room, it doesn't have to operate in the first place. They CHOSE to engage in the business of being a hospital. They subjected themselves to that "mandate."

In every instance of commerce that Congress can regulate the person chooses to engage in it. Under this health-care legislation, you have no choice but to engage in the activity.

It's like liberals never consider the implications of what they do. If congress can mandate that you buy health insurance it can mandate that you buy all American goods.

[Necronus]

Do you know why we pay taxes? Don't we pay taxes to "collectively share the burden" for oh, roads, military, police, education etc. Why the fuck should health be for profit?

Doctors in countries that have social medicine live pretty fucking well. Not as well as American doctors that pitch shitty drugs for Big Pharma for incentives.. but I'm of a mind that life is a little bit more important than making sure a doctor can afford 5 cars and 4 houses.

Yeah, unfortunately tax is currently only shifted to healthcare if someone is uninsured. Otherwise it comes from insurance. And its simply not manged right. I mean, call me naieve, but a compulsory need to buy insurance vs simply increasing taxes seems like a functional equivalent FINANCIALLY to us taxpayers. Its up to the bill to make sure they stay functionally equivalent.

I don't think Necronus is arguing against you in principle really. Maybe not going as far, but it seems that he is only making the point that someone pays for these things...

Essentially yes. I think Finesse is agruing more in terms of this exact bill, whereas I'm only trying to call out that other guy making the dumb car comparrisons.