lv99 bitch/speculation/etc thread

[byte]

lol@you if you think SAM is broken... maybe you need to use parsers?

Every other DD needs significantly above average equipment to out DD an average SAM.
If you think SAM isn't broken, I think your parser is.

Higher damage in 90% of situations alone is enough to warrant calling it over powered. The fact that the #1 goal of melee at almost every HNM is to build a skillchain, so that your army of BLMs can MB it, just pushes SAM way over the edge.

[Valisk]

I don't think people's definition of "broken" are in sync.

[Lucavi]

I don't think people's definition of "broken" are in sync.

People that are used to playing popular and powerful jobs are often loathe to call one of theirs "broken". I didn't hear too many axeburn wars and rngs talking about being broken back in the day, nor did I hear a lot from osode-sams that still out-DDed everyone else once sams received their happy buffs a few years back.

Come to think of it, blms during the manaburn days and rngs during the arrowburn days were quiet too -- they were just elitists, and never hesitated to segregate.

Regardless, some people will only use whatever is deemed to work "the best" in any given situation. You'll rarely hear them speak of brokeness, just that everyone else needs to "work harder".

[Okan]

lol@you if you think SAM is broken... maybe you need to use parsers?

Don't think it is? Try this little exercise:
if you need melée damage, who do you prefer to bring?
Sam or War?
Sam or Thf?
Sam or Rng?
Sam or Bst?
Sam or Pup?
Sam or Nin? (if built for damage versus tanking)
Sam or Drk?
Sam or Drg?
Sam or Mnk?
Sam or insert job I forgot here.
If you answered Sam to more than half of those, it's broke. Every single one of them should be an ACCEPTABLE alternative to bringing more Samurai. Don't state that it's "situational" because it's not. I have yet to see an event get canceled because there wasn't enough Bst or Pup online, however I have seen plently get canned bcause Sam and Blm where not there.

So yes. It's broke. In advantage for the Sam. What really needs to be done is that as each job gains levels, they need to gain advatanges so that when we done have "enough" Samurai online, we can use Bst and Pups to the same effect and still have fun. There is more to this game then being a Blm or Sam and I quit because I was sick of being forced in to a job that I did not enjoy. I came back with this because I am hoping they balance it right. Being told that your prefered job isn't accepted end game is t what people want to hear. We want to play what we want to play. Not have to level a job we despise so that we can be accepted.

Remember when melée were never allowed in to alliances except tank and thf?I know I do. I had so many friends sidelined because of some stigma that they would kill us all. Pretend to have that in effect again. Just pretend you don't get invites. Sit watching your LS kill somthing with you sitting /inv hopin to get a chance to get a few swings. To hopefully loot something, but instead told you can't even hough you've been with them for the longest time because ItemX is better for another job.

Tell me Sam isn't broken again?

P.s sorry about any grammitical or spelling errors as I am typing this on my phone.

[Gergall]

Regardless, some people will only use whatever is deemed to work "the best" in any given situation. You'll rarely hear them speak of brokeness, just that everyone else needs to "work harder".

When asked what race he was going to play in Starcraft 2, a professional gamer responded "Whichever one is the strongest at the time."

Front runner or just a smart man?

[Raen Ryong]

Someone who may be smart but isn't very good for promoting a more balanced online experience. Personally I can't stand people like that...

[Lucavi]

When asked what race he was going to play in Starcraft 2, a professional gamer responded "Whichever one is the strongest at the time."

Front runner or just a smart man?

Starcraft is different. Starcraft is PVP, and competition-based PVP. Someone who wants to win more than lose should take any advantage in a competition setting, especially when there are tangible rewards on the line. Choosing the strongest item/class/race/character available, and then using it effectively can mean the difference between winning and losing.

FFXI is not PVP, it is a game where community was pushed to be everything; a game where you need many to achieve personal victory. In a game like FFXI, there should be more freedom to choose what you find fun (unless you simply find the concept of always winning and being the best as your "fun", in which case you can ignore all of this), almost equal to your desire to choose what is the strongest by default.

If FFXI had two linkshells battling each other in some gladiator combat, with the winning group having the privileged of facing some massive boss or HNM, then I could see everyone wanting to be the broken class, and even justifying that broken class.

FFXI is not this way. FFXI is simply "team up to overcome challenges". How you overcome them is up to you - SE has never defined set rules other than "lol work together for famrryy!!"

So yes, while I feel that whoever said that about Starcraft was completely justified, as that game is competitive by design, I would say that that mindset cannot be carried over to FFXI 100%, because the only competition in this game (aside from bots, which is another beast altogether) is you and your group vs. some AI and shoddy design.

[Vodou]

Don't think it is? Try this little exercise:
if you need melée damage, who do you prefer to bring?
Sam or War?
Sam or Thf?
Sam or Rng?
Sam or Bst?
Sam or Pup?
Sam or Nin? (if built for damage versus tanking)
Sam or Drk?
Sam or Drg?
Sam or Mnk?
Sam or insert job I forgot here.
If you answered Sam to more than half of those, it's broke. Every single one of them should be an ACCEPTABLE alternative to bringing more Samurai. Don't state that it's "situational" because it's not. I have yet to see an event get canceled because there wasn't enough Bst or Pup online, however I have seen plently get canned bcause Sam and Blm where not there.

So yes. It's broke. In advantage for the Sam. What really needs to be done is that as each job gains levels, they need to gain advatanges so that when we done have "enough" Samurai online, we can use Bst and Pups to the same effect and still have fun. There is more to this game then being a Blm or Sam and I quit because I was sick of being forced in to a job that I did not enjoy. I came back with this because I am hoping they balance it right. Being told that your prefered job isn't accepted end game is t what people want to hear. We want to play what we want to play. Not have to level a job we despise so that we can be accepted.

Remember when melée were never allowed in to alliances except tank and thf?I know I do. I had so many friends sidelined because of some stigma that they would kill us all. Pretend to have that in effect again. Just pretend you don't get invites. Sit watching your LS kill somthing with you sitting /inv hopin to get a chance to get a few swings. To hopefully loot something, but instead told you can't even hough you've been with them for the longest time because ItemX is better for another job.

Tell me Sam isn't broken again?

P.s sorry about any grammitical or spelling errors as I am typing this on my phone.

The problem is your definition of broken is: if its the most preferred melee its broken.

There will always be some job that is the most preferred at something (whether enfeebling, tanking, holding hate, nuking, zerging, healing, maxing party potentials etc.)

Your list fails. Thf, nin, drk, rng and bst all have niches which makes their jobs viable. Many people smarter than me will argue that properly geared and played, war, sam and drg can be equivalent. Mnk is equal to or preferred to sam in some legitimate events.

The correct way to define broken is that sam is better at doing what the other jobs were designed to do: TH, tank, solo, zerg, handle HNM with devasting AOE's, maximize an alliance's performance etc. This is why it's not broken.

Sadly many people think that unless every melee job can solo, tank, deal damage and zerg at the same exact level, the game is imbalanced.

[Okan]

Also that the pro-gamer is playing in sanctioned competitions that actually have specific rulesets and he is playing to pay his bills where all of us are playing FFXI recreationally... Just to point that out.

[Lucavi]

^ Yeah, that's the general point. When you're getting paid to win, you do whatever it takes to win.

[willriker]

I wish i could say that LS's are ok with bringing a variety of melee. Especialy since there is a wide array to choose from. But, most LS's dont. The moment they hear SAM, other jobs get left out. (unless we are talking about some predefined niche strategy) On the other hand, i also agree that there will always be a prefered melee, tank, mage, etc.

Its actualy a pretty interesting problem.

[pchan]

Don't think it is? Try this little exercise:
if you need melée damage, who do you prefer to bring?
Sam or War?
Sam or Thf?
Sam or Rng?
Sam or Bst?
Sam or Pup?
Sam or Nin? (if built for damage versus tanking)
Sam or Drk?
Sam or Drg?
Sam or Mnk?
Sam or insert job I forgot here.
If you answered Sam to more than half of those, it's broke. Every single one of them should be an ACCEPTABLE alternative to bringing more Samurai. Don't state that it's "situational" because it's not. I have yet to see an event get canceled because there wasn't enough Bst or Pup online, however I have seen plently get canned bcause Sam and Blm where not there.

So yes. It's broke. In advantage for the Sam. What really needs to be done is that as each job gains levels, they need to gain advatanges so that when we done have "enough" Samurai online, we can use Bst and Pups to the same effect and still have fun. There is more to this game then being a Blm or Sam and I quit because I was sick of being forced in to a job that I did not enjoy. I came back with this because I am hoping they balance it right. Being told that your prefered job isn't accepted end game is t what people want to hear. We want to play what we want to play. Not have to level a job we despise so that we can be accepted.

Remember when melée were never allowed in to alliances except tank and thf?I know I do. I had so many friends sidelined because of some stigma that they would kill us all. Pretend to have that in effect again. Just pretend you don't get invites. Sit watching your LS kill somthing with you sitting /inv hopin to get a chance to get a few swings. To hopefully loot something, but instead told you can't even hough you've been with them for the longest time because ItemX is better for another job.

Tell me Sam isn't broken again?

P.s sorry about any grammitical or spelling errors as I am typing this on my phone.

Your problem is that you live in 2004.

Look, this is FFXI, exlpain me how SAM is broken into the following events -cover most of endgmae)

- SALVAGE : mnk better
- merit : war and mnk better (yes)
- Einherjar : mnk and war better
- limbus : mnk and war better
- dynamis monk and war better
- hnm : sam better
- ZNM mnk and war better
- sea NM. equal i'd say.
- sky ? fuck, we are in 2010 people solo sky.
- Nyzluls : mnk and war better


Or maybe you can explain how you can outdd a monk in the event i mentionned above ¿ Nothing beats 25% haste, polearm and GK are slow as fuck, and everyone knows dualwield beats GAxe when acc is capped (always) (hitting fast > hitting hard).

Suck less. Good summary of your idea of FFXi

Remember when melée were never allowed in to alliances except tank and thf?

THF, WAR and MNK are tanks bro.

[Gergall]

Lets say someone played RNG, then WAR, and now SAM, always sticking with whatever is taken to be the best. Why would you have a problem with this person?

I'm not talking about a bandwagoner who halfasses his gear/macros as he jumps from one popular job to the next. I'm talking about someone who...fullasses it.

[Byrthnoth]

So, this general point has to have been discussed a bunch of times already, but if my math is right and the current xp/level progression continues past 75 (+2k/level) then we're looking at around 1,610,000xp to get to 99. In current xp terms, that's 161 merits. Considering most people haven't even gotten the ~74 merits associated with each job, and I know many people with fewer than a hundred spent merits across their multiple 75s, what do you guys think the odds are that casual players will even get level 99?

There's some social pressure, because while I can't see that my linkshell's main paladin has 12 merits spent, I can see that he's a gimpy level 78. However, it's a lot of xp. at 3k/hr of campaign/solo/whatever, you'd be talking about loljobs having to solo for over 22 days of play time to get to 99. Suuure, they're going to spread it out over a year, etc, but some people don't even spend an hour a night of playtime away from LS events.

Where do you guys think the balance will fall? People will take 1 75 up first probably, then a second, etc, but will some jobs that aren't xp party friendly just never get to 99?

[Demosthenes11]

Every other DD needs significantly above average equipment to out DD an average SAM.
If you think SAM isn't broken, I think your parser is.

Higher damage in 90% of situations alone is enough to warrant calling it over powered. The fact that the #1 goal of melee at almost every HNM is to build a skillchain, so that your army of BLMs can MB it, just pushes SAM way over the edge.

wut

[Raen Ryong]

Post

So WAR, MNK and SAM are broken - this doesn't mean any of them doesn't require adjustment (or other jobs adjusted upwards).

[FailureMidgard]

Sam isn't broken. Pchan is delusional about every job beating Sam.
Sam/war and War/sam are pretty much neck and neck as far as being top damage, Mnk/war is a short bit behind, Drk is a joke.

Mnk:

348 delay, 25% haste gear, 35% haste magic = 60% haste, 139 adjusted delay. ~7 rounds to get 100TP. (With a dnc: 104 delay)

Sam:
450 delay, 23% haste gear, 35% haste magic, 10% haste JA = 144 adjusted delay. 5 hits/rounds to get 100% tp (With a dnc: 99 delay)

Why does your 25% gear haste matter again?

Salvage, Limbus, Merit, Ein, Dynamis are all the same, I have no idea why you think mnk does anything in salvage differently. Sam and War are better on all. Furthermore, War/Sam and Sam/War not only beat, but destroy your mnk/nin.
ZNM : depends how you do it, we just non-2hr zerg T3s, nothing can compete with a Sam who gets to open with 4 WSes and the mob is dead before meditate finishes ticking...even past that though, mnk still brings nothing special to the table, at all.
Sea/Sky : wat?
Nyzul: whm/nin can probably keep up with a real DD due to how low lvl shit is, who gives a fuck.


Again, sam isn't really broken anymore, in my opinion. War/sam and Sam/war are both top of the line DDs, and nothing else can really compete, all else equal.

[Nightmarelord]

Sam isn't broken. Pchan is delusional about every job beating Sam.
Sam/war and War/sam are pretty much neck and neck as far as being top damage, Mnk/war is a short bit behind, Drk is a joke.

Mnk:

348 delay, 25% haste gear, 35% haste magic = 60% haste, 139 adjusted delay. ~7 rounds to get 100TP. (With a dnc: 104 delay)

Sam:
450 delay, 23% haste gear, 35% haste magic, 10% haste JA = 144 adjusted delay. 5 hits/rounds to get 100% tp (With a dnc: 99 delay)

Why does your 25% gear haste matter again?

Salvage, Limbus, Merit, Ein, Dynamis are all the same, I have no idea why you think mnk does anything in salvage differently. Sam and War are better on all. Furthermore, War/Sam and Sam/War not only beat, but destroy your mnk/nin.
ZNM : depends how you do it, we just non-2hr zerg T3s, nothing can compete with a Sam who gets to open with 4 WSes and the mob is dead before meditate finishes ticking...even past that though, mnk still brings nothing special to the table, at all.
Sea/Sky : wat?
Nyzul: whm/nin can probably keep up with a real DD due to how low lvl shit is, who gives a fuck.


Again, sam isn't really broken anymore, in my opinion. War/sam and Sam/war are both top of the line DDs, and nothing else can really compete, all else equal.

You just made the sam in me go " HOOOOOOOOOOOOORAAAAAAAAAAAAH!"

[Okan]

It really doesn't matter if you prefer using "broken" or "imba" or even "overpowered". The fact is that Sam doesn't have the downfalls that almost all those classes do. Yes someare acceptable, but my statement is simply that ALL of them should be acceptable.

A "niche" shouldn't be bringing a Bst or two for crowd control on one fight. Or Zerg with kclub Drks. Or have the Thf in the party for TH for the last 2%. They should be able to be in the full 100. So no. The list doesn't fail.

[Taruking]

Mnk:

348 delay, 25% haste gear, 35% haste magic = 60% haste, 139 adjusted delay. ~7 rounds to get 100TP. (With a dnc: 104 delay)

Sam:
450 delay, 23% haste gear, 35% haste magic, 10% haste JA = 144 adjusted delay. 5 hits/rounds to get 100% tp (With a dnc: 99 delay)

Why does your 25% gear haste matter again?

I think what he means is a large proportion of MNK damage comes from DOT thus having extra haste gear does make a difference.

Still I can't see the logic behind pchan's argument. I haven't played melee jobs for 6 months, but I dont' see how it's possible for dualwield axe to beat Gaxe. Hitting fast is pointless when the mobs die within seconds, DOT damage is slow as hell compared to 5-/6-hit build. The reason why SAM is so good is because they have more tools to manipulate TP gain and access to some of the strongest WS in this game.